Back mount for stockier grapplers.

[Significance Deficit]

I'm re-watching the recent Maia/Brown fight and it's got me thinking. The body triangle has never been an option for me when I take the back because I have shorter limbs and my legs just never reach. In the past, I believe I shied away from back attacks because of that. I felt like it was more difficult for me to maintain back control so I'd end up conceding better positions sometimes in order to stay on top. I sort of developed my top game around that.

Over the last year or so, I've started to force myself to take the back whenever it's an option. I've definitely improved because of it but I still feel like I don't love back control as much as I should, considering it's at the top of the positional hierarchy in BJJ. I'm wondering what some of you think about back control when you can't use the body triangle at all. Is it as effective? Do longer grapplers have more dominant back control? It just seems like I have to do a ton of work and be constantly adjusting my hips where as I don't see other guys needing to do as much of it. On top is a different story though.

I'm sure someone's going to bring up Marcelo quickly here but he's a freak and it's pretty much useless to bring him up when talking about the struggles of the average BJJ player.

 

[Crotalis]

I'm 5'5" and about 165lbs. So that's pretty much the definition of stocky. I love back mount. I can use the body triangle generally without too much trouble (unless the person I'm rolling with is massive), and people generally tell me it's a miserable spot for them to be in because the squeeze is naturally tighter due to my stubby legs. It's exactly like finding the right angle on a triangle choke. The other thing I've noticed is that people sometimes appear to attempt it too high up on the body. It's better to catch it lower imo.

Most of the time though, it's back mount with my feet hooked behind the opponent's hamstrings (if they are turtled or partially kneeling) and back mount with feet hooked on opponent's inner thighs if we are sitting. I feel like the sitting one is pretty hard for me since I'm so damn small I don't really have much control. The version where they're turtled usually works well for me though. I can't get most people stretched out very far (again - barely tall enough to ride most amusement park rides), but it's a lot of concentrated weight to carry on your lower back like that and I'm difficult to shake off. I find it's a good spot to hit turn-overs from.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I use hooks, Im not tall but I can normally do a body triangle on most peoplee...

Nothing wrong with hooks, I normally use a half hook, bottom hook and top leg on my opponents hip, looking to trap the arm.

 

[Significance Deficit]

If you are able to body triangle people in your weight class, this really doesn't apply to you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with hooks, I'm just wondering if people consider it a more limited position when you don't have the body triangle as an option and have to work harder to maintain back control. I've just never felt as comfortable with the back as I should, considering the status that it's given as the Holy Grail of BJJ.

 

[Spazzmaster]

IMO, the key is to stop thinking that the back position is just about the hooks. Marcelo's philosophy is that back control is: First, the connection between your chest and your opponent's back. Second, the seat belt. Third, the hooks. If you are a member of MGinAction, you can see that Marcelo has contingency plans for recovering back control that don't involve the hooks.

I agree that back control by shorter, stockier people requires mobility and adjustments. It is not as static as back control by longer people. But the good thing about the position is that your opponent is limited in the ways he can move, and is therefore more predictable. Marcelo's contingencies came from spending massive time on the position to the point where he has seen everything anyone can do to get out.

 

[Spazzmaster]

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If you are able to body triangle people in your weight class, this really doesn't apply to you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with hooks, I'm just wondering if people consider it a more limited position when you don't have the body triangle as an option and have to work harder to maintain back control. I've just never felt as comfortable with the back as I should, considering the status that it's given as the Holy Grail of BJJ.

I can body triangle people but I chose to use hooks...

 

[Significance Deficit]

I'll check those videos out.

Also, Spazz rule.

 

[mike sherry]

dismissing marcelo because 'he's marcelo' is a huge fallacy I see

He is successful because of what he does, not because of who he is.

 

[rmongler]

dismissing marcelo because 'he's marcelo' is a huge fallacy I see

He is successful because of what he does, not because of who he is.

Well what he does is itself because of who he is, but yeah. Things work more or work less for certain reasons, and if what he does is working more, you can observe that yourself and see why, see what's different from those who work less.

 

[Significance Deficit]

dismissing marcelo because 'he's marcelo' is a huge fallacy I see

He is successful because of what he does, not because of who he is.

Wrong.

Marcelo is a dude who literally does not do S&C. If I didn't do that, I would not have made it beyond blue belt because I would be weaker than everyone, gas more quickly and be constantly injured. I'm a terrible athlete and he's a freak. I'm not dismissing him, I'm just aware that not everything he says and does will apply to me because he has genetic advantages that I will never have. It is what it is. I still use a ton of his shit and I'll listen to what he has to say on technique because he knows more than I ever will but I'm going to take it with a grain of salt.

Anyway, I was referring to how effectively he attacks the back and his philosophy in general, not his technical instruction on specific things. I think he's the exception in the BJJ world as far as stockier guys who are known for taking the back. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd be interested to hear if there are any other guys who are built like he is and have been able to make a career out of submitting their opponents from back mount.

 

[selfcritical]

If only he had an entire academy of guys attacking the back the same way he does.

 

[selfcritical]

More seriously, every BJJ instructor i've ever worked with has emphasized the harness/seatbelt as the most important aspect of back control, and that has included stocky 5'7 guys and a 6'5, 370lb monster.

 

[Significance Deficit]

If only he had an entire academy of guys attacking the back the same way he does.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong. I just think if you need Marcelo to make an argument on this one, then it's probably a weak argument. I don't know any of his current guys who play that sort of game who are built the way he is. Any names?

 

[Stephan Kesting]

dismissing marcelo because 'he's marcelo' is a huge fallacy I see

He is successful because of what he does, not because of who he is.

Amen!! He's obviously gifted athletically but so is everybody else he competed against at that level.

Work your hooks and forget about the body triangle for your body type

 

[selfcritical]

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong. I just think if you need Marcelo to make an argument on this one, then it's probably a weak argument. I don't know any of his current guys who play that sort of game who are built the way he is. Any names?

I'd have to look over competition footage to see who's doing it in comp, but having looked at MGnA before, literally everybody.

Of people elsewhere, Ryan Hall was advocating it before he started training with Marcelo, the Straight Blast gym curriculum advocates it and has for like, two decades at this point, Demain Maia in his Science of Jiu-Jitsu set, 10th planet teaches it as part of their back control curriculum, Rafa uses it for armbar setups, my coach Mario Esfiha teaches it as the primary way of taking the back....that's a pretty broad swathe of people who agree that this is an integral element of back control. By comparison, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who's finishing constantly at the high level with a body triangle, as opposed to it's popularity in MMA which is based on the fact that you don't need to use arms (and hence can punch)

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong. I just think if you need Marcelo to make an argument on this one, then it's probably a weak argument. I don't know any of his current guys who play that sort of game who are built the way he is. Any names?

dude, you dont need no body triangle to attack the back, yes is more secure than hooks, but it also limits your attacks.

You cant do body tringle, use hooks.

 

[fanboysareevil]

Gordon Ryan and Garry Tonon are the only guys I can think of that consistently go body triangle in pure grappling who actually finish guys, and Gordon uses his mostly like hooks in that he constantly undoes it and looks to trap arms. Hooks are good.

And names of Marcelo's guys are Mansher Khera, Jon Satava, Matheus Diniz, and Dillon Danis, to name a few.

 

[Crotalis]

If you are able to body triangle people in your weight class, this really doesn't apply to you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with hooks, I'm just wondering if people consider it a more limited position when you don't have the body triangle as an option and have to work harder to maintain back control. I've just never felt as comfortable with the back as I should, considering the status that it's given as the Holy Grail of BJJ.

I can actually get body triangles on people bigger than me (which, at my size, is like ... everybody). There's a limit obviously, but you'd be surprised at what you can do once you figure out exactly where to slip the triangle in, and what angle you need to be at to do it. Like I said, it's very similar to finding the right angle on a triangle choke.

To your other point - I do sometimes find that putting the hooks in can lead to certain limitations. For example, putting my hooks in on someone who's 6' tall. I'm too short to stretch them out and I'm also generally too short for a strong seatbelt on someone that much taller. That's why I tend to use the position as a riding position or to get turn overs.