Boxing vs muay thai as mma base???

[Uchi Mata]

That only proves my point that boxing is a better base. Even guys who have trained to kick aren't doing it much, they're fighting more like boxers with some kicks thrown in. Despite the low level of boxing, guys still prefer to use their hands. That's why when guys like McGregor and Garbrandt come in who actually have a boxing background, they steamroll entire divisions. And neither of those guys has the greatest boxing background either.

Boxing and wrestling are the core of most MMA fighters' games. For most guys, everything else is icing on the cake.

If your point is that a hands heavy attack is more effective for MMA than a kick heavy attack, I'll agree with you. I'm just not classifying everyone who throws a lot of hands as a boxer, especially if they didn't come from a boxing background. Jose Aldo, GSP, those are guys who can box but who are not boxers. And I also think that looking at the current state of the belts is a pretty bad measure of whether any style is going to be universally dominant, if you'd looked at who the champs were in 2014, you might well conclude that kickboxing was really what you needed, as Werdum, RDA, Aldo, Jones, and DJ were all champs (some very dominant) who relied heavily on kicking, clinching, and knees. Garbrandt and Conor have definitely shown the power of having strong boxing, but I don't think we should succumb to recency bias in thinking that their success somehow means boxing is the 'answer' to MMA striking, any more than BJJ or wrestling have allowed people to effortlessly dominate like they did during their heydays as dominant strategies. I do think we can say that in general it's more important to have good hands over good kicks, but if you see people going full Nate Diaz and investing only in boxing you'll certainly see those same people get their legs kicked out from under them or get their faces kneed off in the clinch if they neglect those aspects of training. Which goes back to what I originally said and maintain, which is that the best sort of striking style for MMA is probably Dutch KB since it incorporates a lot of what makes boxing effective without incorporating strategies that will get your head taken off (repeatedly rolling very low under punches when knees are legal), and giving you some additional weapons with simple kicking and clinch (as well as defenses against those tactics). I expect Saki, for example, to do just fine in the striking department, whereas I think if you took someone like (since it's topical) Floyd Mayweather he'd just get shit kicked by anyone with a decent KB background. Saki definitely prefers his hands which will serve him well, but he's able to deal with the full gamut of striking whereas someone using pure boxing stances and tactics would have a lot of trouble defending kicks or takedowns.

 

[a guy]

If your point is that a hands heavy attack is more effective for MMA than a kick heavy attack, I'll agree with you. I'm just not classifying everyone who throws a lot of hands as a boxer, especially if they didn't come from a boxing background. Jose Aldo, GSP, those are guys who can box but who are not boxers. And I also think that looking at the current state of the belts is a pretty bad measure of whether any style is going to be universally dominant, if you'd looked at who the champs were in 2014, you might well conclude that kickboxing was really what you needed, as Werdum, RDA, Aldo, Jones, and DJ were all champs (some very dominant) who relied heavily on kicking, clinching, and knees. Garbrandt and Conor have definitely shown the power of having strong boxing, but I don't think we should succumb to recency bias in thinking that their success somehow means boxing is the 'answer' to MMA striking, any more than BJJ or wrestling have allowed people to effortlessly dominate like they did during their heydays as dominant strategies. I do think we can say that in general it's more important to have good hands over good kicks, but if you see people going full Nate Diaz and investing only in boxing you'll certainly see those same people get their legs kicked out from under them or get their faces kneed off in the clinch if they neglect those aspects of training. Which goes back to what I originally said and maintain, which is that the best sort of striking style for MMA is probably Dutch KB since it incorporates a lot of what makes boxing effective without incorporating strategies that will get your head taken off (repeatedly rolling very low under punches when knees are legal), and giving you some additional weapons with simple kicking and clinch (as well as defenses against those tactics). I expect Saki, for example, to do just fine in the striking department, whereas I think if you took someone like (since it's topical) Floyd Mayweather he'd just get shit kicked by anyone with a decent KB background. Saki definitely prefers his hands which will serve him well, but he's able to deal with the full gamut of striking whereas someone using pure boxing stances and tactics would have a lot of trouble defending kicks or takedowns.

Yea my point is that hands are more effective in MMA, and thus that boxing is the best base. We haven't gotten to see the real effectiveness of a boxing base in MMA because almost nobody has a real boxing base. McGregor and Garbrandt are two of the best examples, but still neither of them was really a great boxer. Both showed promise early but didn't stick with boxing for long enough to get fully tested at the national/international level, and yet both are destroying everybody with their hands. I'm not just looking at current champs for that, historically a wrestle-boxing style is the most successful in MMA. Yes, guys have to account for kicks and knees just like wrestlers have to account for submissions and GNP, but those things are enhanced by a good boxing background just like submissions are enhanced by a good wrestling background.

I see what you're saying with the dutch KB. However, I think dutch KB is better after a strong boxing base. Boxing teaches the head movement, footwork, weight shifting, distance measuring, rhythm, and all the fundamentals to another level than any other art IME. All of those things translate extremely well to all aspects of MMA. Something like dutch KB is needed to cover all the possible threats you'll deal with and boxing on its own definitely isn't enough, but I believe it's the best start because of how fundamentally focused it is and well it combines with wrestling.

 

[shincheckin]

Is boxing really better for base in mma than muay thai? Because Quite all current champions are the best boxers in there divisions

boxing, muay thai is too upright and leaves you open for takedowns. This is why boxing is predominantly used.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Yea my point is that hands are more effective in MMA, and thus that boxing is the best base. We haven't gotten to see the real effectiveness of a boxing base in MMA because almost nobody has a real boxing base. McGregor and Garbrandt are two of the best examples, but still neither of them was really a great boxer. Both showed promise early but didn't stick with boxing for long enough to get fully tested at the national/international level, and yet both are destroying everybody with their hands. I'm not just looking at current champs for that, historically a wrestle-boxing style is the most successful in MMA. Yes, guys have to account for kicks and knees just like wrestlers have to account for submissions and GNP, but those things are enhanced by a good boxing background just like submissions are enhanced by a good wrestling background.

I see what you're saying with the dutch KB. However, I think dutch KB is better after a strong boxing base. Boxing teaches the head movement, footwork, weight shifting, distance measuring, rhythm, and all the fundamentals to another level than any other art IME. All of those things translate extremely well to all aspects of MMA. Something like dutch KB is needed to cover all the possible threats you'll deal with and boxing on its own definitely isn't enough, but I believe it's the best start because of how fundamentally focused it is and well it combines with wrestling.

I do think the way boxing is taught is generally superior to the was KB is taught, mostly because boxing coaches spend so much time on very low level fundamentals like stance, punch mechanics, and footwork. The biggest weakness I see with pure boxing is that the stance you're generally taught to fight out of is really, really bad for MMA, and because stance is such a fundamental thing affecting both footwork and punching mechanics it could be a hard transition to a more MMA style stance. Maybe I'm overrating the difficulty, I certainly haven't had to do that myself not coming from a boxing background. In general so few elite strikers transition into MMA that it's very hard to say which base striking style (in the sense we talk about wrestling or BJJ as a base style, i.e. something you've gotten really good at before starting MMA) transitions most easily. In general though if I was taking a fighter from scratch and teaching them MMA I'd spend a lot more time focusing on boxing than Muay Thai.

 

[j123]

He can't even read a book. How's he gonna read dat left hand shot?

Shots fired

Moneymay vs that guy with the poor kitchen

 

[a guy]

I do think the way boxing is taught is generally superior to the was KB is taught, mostly because boxing coaches spend so much time on very low level fundamentals like stance, punch mechanics, and footwork. The biggest weakness I see with pure boxing is that the stance you're generally taught to fight out of is really, really bad for MMA, and because stance is such a fundamental thing affecting both footwork and punching mechanics it could be a hard transition to a more MMA style stance. Maybe I'm overrating the difficulty, I certainly haven't had to do that myself not coming from a boxing background. In general so few elite strikers transition into MMA that it's very hard to say which base striking style (in the sense we talk about wrestling or BJJ as a base style, i.e. something you've gotten really good at before starting MMA) transitions most easily. In general though if I was taking a fighter from scratch and teaching them MMA I'd spend a lot more time focusing on boxing than Muay Thai.

Definitely disagree about the stance being bad for MMA. It's actually very similar to a wrestling stance, and most guys stand somewhere between what we think of as a boxing stance and a wrestling stance. Some stand way more bladed and way more in a line than boxers do and are still successful, for example Wonderboy, Rory, Machida, GSP, etc. Even guys like Aldo and McGregor stand pretty bladed. I personally stand almost the exact same in boxing as in MMA, and the footwork from that stance is the exact same and works really well in MMA.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Definitely disagree about the stance being bad for MMA. It's actually very similar to a wrestling stance, and most guys stand somewhere between what we think of as a boxing stance and a wrestling stance. Some stand way more bladed and way more in a line than boxers do and are still successful, for example Wonderboy, Rory, Machida, GSP, etc. Even guys like Aldo and McGregor stand pretty bladed. I personally stand almost the exact same in boxing as in MMA, and the footwork from that stance is the exact same and works really well in MMA.

It's not similar to a wrestling stance. That I will take issue with. Wrestling stances are much more square with more weight over the front foot than I've ever seen taught in boxing (there are certainly boxers who have used a more square, front foot heavy stance, but it's not the way it's usually taught).

I also think it's a little funny that the list of people you reeled off as having bladed stances are not guys who got their stances primarily from boxing. Even Conor stands much more like a Karate guy than a boxer, though obviously he is a boxing heavy MMA fighter. I think you can be bladed, but it really helps to have the kind of distance management and footwork that is much more typical of Karate than the kind that you find in boxing. I think the most obvious example of an almost pure boxer who uses a very bladed stance is Nate Diaz, and he often suffers for it.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm overly generalizing. Certainly the kind of stance you saw from guys like Roberto Duran, JCC, De la Hoya, Marvin Hagler, etc. is totally fine for MMA. Plenty square enough to sprawl and hip into takedowns, not so back weighted that you can't get your hips in, it would work fine. I'm referring more to the guys who are generally considered to be purer technicians like Floyd Mayweather, Pernell Whitaker, Winky Wright, and so forth. I don't think that kind of back weighted, heavily bladed stance is going to work very well for you, and off the top of my head I can't think of anyone in MMA who really fights like that successfully.

 

[MrFlintStone]

That only proves my point that boxing is a better base. Even guys who have trained to kick aren't doing it much, they're fighting more like boxers with some kicks thrown in. Despite the low level of boxing, guys still prefer to use their hands. That's why when guys like McGregor and Garbrandt come in who actually have a boxing background, they steamroll entire divisions. And neither of those guys has the greatest boxing background either.

Boxing and wrestling are the core of most MMA fighters' games. For most guys, everything else is icing on the cake.

I would say this is because you have to step up kicks with punches for them to be more effective. A great example for this would be Joanna she uses the jab or the jab cross sometimes even jab cross jab cross and ends it with the high kick. She is using the jab and cross to get you blinking and reacting from the punches and them finishes with a low kick body kick or a head kick. So do alot of the guys you mentioned use the hands to set up the kicks. Also some guys domt want to be on their back and arent as efficient on their back which hinders them from throwing alot of kicks out of the fear of them getting caught and taken down.

 

[MaxMMA]

There's so many different styles that you can't really say that one is the best base. We see more fighters coming out of certain styles than others for obvious reasons, but I wouldn't say its wrong to start with MT, Karate, TKD, than it is to start with wrestling, boxing, or jits.

As far as boxing in MMA is concerned, I think it should pretty much be a no brainer. Even with all the other options available, your hands can still be counted on as your main weapon(even if your boxing sucks) for a few different reasons.
Quickest most direct offense available, almost always available for use regardless of the situation or position, punching unlike other striking weapons keeps your base the most stable, its use as a mid range striking tool enables you to close into grappling range or getting to an outside range as needed, punches can be used to counter almost any strike thrown at you, and last but not least punching is the most energy efficient offensive weapon a fighter has. You can literally throw hundreds of punches in one round, how many takedown attempts can you realistically go for in a round, how many kicks?
When you've been eating shots, wrestling around the whole round, and are completely gassed, you can still muster up enough energy to get some hands going when the fight makes it way back to the feet.

 

[DaGenius]

Is boxing really better for base in mma than muay thai? Because Quite all current champions are the best boxers in there divisions

Not necessarily. I feel that Muay Thai is the best striking base as it gives you more to work with. I do believe that wrestling is still the best grappling base but unfortunately Muay Thai and wrestling doesn't seem to be often truly combined.

 

[a guy]

It's not similar to a wrestling stance. That I will take issue with. Wrestling stances are much more square with more weight over the front foot than I've ever seen taught in boxing (there are certainly boxers who have used a more square, front foot heavy stance, but it's not the way it's usually taught).

I also think it's a little funny that the list of people you reeled off as having bladed stances are not guys who got their stances primarily from boxing. Even Conor stands much more like a Karate guy than a boxer, though obviously he is a boxing heavy MMA fighter. I think you can be bladed, but it really helps to have the kind of distance management and footwork that is much more typical of Karate than the kind that you find in boxing. I think the most obvious example of an almost pure boxer who uses a very bladed stance is Nate Diaz, and he often suffers for it.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm overly generalizing. Certainly the kind of stance you saw from guys like Roberto Duran, JCC, De la Hoya, Marvin Hagler, etc. is totally fine for MMA. Plenty square enough to sprawl and hip into takedowns, not so back weighted that you can't get your hips in, it would work fine. I'm referring more to the guys who are generally considered to be purer technicians like Floyd Mayweather, Pernell Whitaker, Winky Wright, and so forth. I don't think that kind of back weighted, heavily bladed stance is going to work very well for you, and off the top of my head I can't think of anyone in MMA who really fights like that successfully.

The foot positioning is very similar. Yea wrestling stances are lower and have more weight on the front foot, but overall it's very easy to move from a boxing stance to a wrestling stance.

That was on purpose. If you take the things people criticize a boxing stance for, those guys stand like that but even more exaggerated, and yet they aren't getting their legs chopped down or getting taken down in every fight. As for Diaz, it's not just that his stance is bladed. He stands with his feet completely in a line and often brings his heels together, which is just as bad in boxing as it is in MMA. If you put someone in a good boxing stance--lead foot pointed at the target, rear foot at 45, feet at least shoulder width apart and staggered, they're gonna have a great base to move in any direction and attack or defend with pretty much any technique in MMA. The weight distribution can vary a lot then, it should be shifting back and forth regularly. I personally keep my weight farther back in my starting position in MMA, just like I do in boxing, and I find it helps a lot. But keep in mind what I said before, there are very few well-trained boxers in MMA. Most guys in the sport didn't start striking until late in their lives, didn't have the best coaches when they started and never got to dedicate themselves full time to it. So you aren't gonna see great boxing in MMA because nobody is bringing it there.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The foot positioning is very similar. Yea wrestling stances are lower and have more weight on the front foot, but overall it's very easy to move from a boxing stance to a wrestling stance.

That was on purpose. If you take the things people criticize a boxing stance for, those guys stand like that but even more exaggerated, and yet they aren't getting their legs chopped down or getting taken down in every fight. As for Diaz, it's not just that his stance is bladed. He stands with his feet completely in a line and often brings his heels together, which is just as bad in boxing as it is in MMA. If you put someone in a good boxing stance--lead foot pointed at the target, rear foot at 45, feet at least shoulder width apart and staggered, they're gonna have a great base to move in any direction and attack or defend with pretty much any technique in MMA. The weight distribution can vary a lot then, it should be shifting back and forth regularly. I personally keep my weight farther back in my starting position in MMA, just like I do in boxing, and I find it helps a lot. But keep in mind what I said before, there are very few well-trained boxers in MMA. Most guys in the sport didn't start striking until late in their lives, didn't have the best coaches when they started and never got to dedicate themselves full time to it. So you aren't gonna see great boxing in MMA because nobody is bringing it there.

I'm curious when you're personally sparring against decent wrestlers do you not find that back weighting makes the takedown easier? Because as a pressure fighter looking mostly for the takedown, I start salivating when I can put guys on the back foot, get them to start pulling and moving back, etc. because that's when they give up any ability to get their hips into my defending my shot.

 

[quantiqus]

Is boxing really better for base in mma than muay thai? Because Quite all current champions are the best boxers in there divisions

 

[AndyMaBobs]

All this base stuff is overrated anyway. The reason most of the guys you know and love from MMA have a base style is because MMA is only 20 something years old, and most of the people got into it at a time when the generation just before them were basically bar brawling in the cage. The Brazilian guys did BJJ because that was the relatively big thing over there, the same as why in Britain they are mostly boxer/kickboxers.

Just do MMA - it worked fine for Rory MacDonald. If you wanna get comfortable with something first then feel free to, but don't worry about starting something to be a better base for MMA, honestly you're better off just training MMA and then doing more of a certain thing you like. I started muay thai with the intent of it being a base for MMA - and in the end I just started training muay thai because I love it.

 

[a guy]

I'm curious when you're personally sparring against decent wrestlers do you not find that back weighting makes the takedown easier? Because as a pressure fighter looking mostly for the takedown, I start salivating when I can put guys on the back foot, get them to start pulling and moving back, etc. because that's when they give up any ability to get their hips into my defending my shot.

Nah, I find it makes it easier for me to control distance in the first place. The thing is that for me, being on the back foot doesn't mean pulling and moving back. It means my right side is always loaded and I'm ready to shift my weight forward explosively at any time. One of the things I've worked on the most is being able to quickly, easily and smoothly shift weight foot to foot, and to be able to move in any direction no matter where my weight is. So even if I start backing up and my weight's back, I'm ready to change angles. That means I'm rarely hitting full sprawls, instead I'm doing more limp-legging like Aldo or underhooking and turning like Machida or Rumble.

 

[j123]

All this base stuff is overrated anyway. The reason most of the guys you know and love from MMA have a base style is because MMA is only 20 something years old, and most of the people got into it at a time when the generation just before them were basically bar brawling in the cage. The Brazilian guys did BJJ because that was the relatively big thing over there, the same as why in Britain they are mostly boxer/kickboxers.

Just do MMA - it worked fine for Rory MacDonald. If you wanna get comfortable with something first then feel free to, but don't worry about starting something to be a better base for MMA, honestly you're better off just training MMA and then doing more of a certain thing you like. I started muay thai with the intent of it being a base for MMA - and in the end I just started training muay thai because I love it.

Its not the popular choice, but as someone who started out specialized, transitioning into MMA took me quite a bit of time to adjust. There was so much I had to forgo in MT/KB. Same thing with the BJJ guys when they came over.

The entire dynamic changed significantly. Took me about 4 months to really adapt and do 'MMA' instead of "MT + grappling" or "BJJ + strikes"

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Its not the popular choice, but as someone who started out specialized, transitioning into MMA took me quite a bit of time to adjust. There was so much I had to forgo in MT/KB. Same thing with the BJJ guys when they came over.

The entire dynamic changed significantly. Took me about 4 months to really adapt and do 'MMA' instead of "MT + grappling" or "BJJ + strikes"

4 months isnt a very long time though.

 

[j123]

4 months isnt a very long time though.

I guess it isn't, but I still have old habits that I should be capitalizing on, or I'd get a "striking" round in and subconsciously forget its MMA and smarter fighter would use it to exploit and blast me to the ground throughout the round

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I actually think that for striking Dutch KB is probably the best style for MMA. Very hands heavy, but with the ability to kick for power and defend kicks. Aldo these days has a very Dutch style, albeit an extremely defensive one. Whitaker can punch and kick very effectively as well.

It's also important not to look only at a point in time when gauging what takes people to the top. You wouldn't have to go that far back to find a lot of kickboxers at the top of various divisions, and most of the long time dominant champs were more KB based than boxing.

I'll add too that strategically two of the most dominant champions rely very heavily on Muay Thai ideas of outfighting moving directly into the clinch if taken out of kick range. Jon Jones and DJ are both basically outfighters who love to clinch, neither spend much time in what you'd normally consider boxing range. And while both are great wrestlers, their clinches are much more about doing damage with strikes than taking people down.

Boxing is definitely having a moment with Cody, Conor, and Stipe looking very very good lately, but it's hardly the dominant striking style in MMA. My personal opinion is that if you have good wrestling, you can layer pretty much any real striking art over that and have success. It's probably easier in many case to learn to box than learn to use all the weapons of Muay Thai (and boxing tends to emphasize defensive soundness more earlier on than MT, which is huge in terms of practical results), but I don't think it's inherently superior for the cage in any way.

Excellent post imo.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I'd consider it a win for boxing if Mayweather survives the first minute.

He can't even read a book. How's he gonna read dat left hand shot?

what???