Social Can homeless people be fined for sleeping outside? A rural Oregon city asks the US Supreme Court

[The XL]

Umm.....so if they can't pay and have nowhere to stay, what exactly are they supposed to do?

 

[fedoriswar37]

This video on Lackluster shows what's wrong with vagrancy/loitering laws and should set off alarm bells for anyone who thinks it's a good idea for Cops to constantly be able to decide how long a person can be in a public space on the street level. They are hassling this guy because he is a known Cop-watcher, and their premise for doing so is "you dont belong here, you're loitering:"

The cops my wife works a with as part of their social nav program have got to the point where they tell the city you guys need to publically state you made the choice to remove these encampments, not us.

They have a job and when the word comes down they have to follow orders. But they're sick and tired of getting the sole blame.

 

[fedoriswar37]

Drug addiction is a lot more complicated than just saying well it's their fault for making bad decisions. These people need help because they're unable to help themselves.

A lot of these people are victims of childhood abuse/ sexual abuse.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Umm.....so if they can't pay and have nowhere to stay, what exactly are they supposed to do?

The Oregon law is predicated on having enough beds for the homeless population available at any given time.

90% of the people offered shelter when their encampment was cleaned up turned it down.

 

[Andy Capp]

The Oregon law is predicated on having enough beds for the homeless population available at any given time.

90% of the people offered shelter when their encampment was cleaned up turned it down.

I'd like to see a source the the 90% claim; regardless, want to take a guess at the reason?

 

[avenue94]

While I agree that loitering laws are unconstitutional, there is no "right" to housing or shelter. If someone is breaking the law they need to be held accountable. Plenty of homeless people live their lives without acting like criminals.

In the Constitutional sense, there is no direct right to it. It is somewhat implied at this point by the 8th Amendment and how courts interpret it. Many cities also have a right to shelter law.

I agree that breaking the law should be punished, but only to the ends of the state. IE, yes, punish a homeless or non homeless person for assault or theft. But if the crime in question is violating an anti-loitering law, tossing that person in jail or fining them doesn't help and would make the problem worse. So at that point, the focus needs to be on the structural causes.

 

[DoctorTaco]

I'd like to see a source the the 90% claim; regardless, want to take a guess at the reason?

I could find the article. It was a big ugly camp smack in the middle of one of the cities largest and most beautiful parks. When they finally came and did something about it they had vouchers for short term housing and advocates from non profits offering to assist them in getting in a shelter spot.

Most of the push back you read when the folks are interviewed boil down to the rules. Shelters have curfews, no “in and out” policies when it’s late at night, don’t allow drugs or alcohol. Reasonable precautions but when you’re used to being an outdoor cat the idea of anyone telling you what to do tends to rub folks the wrong way.

Edit: reading more on it and people site no pets allowed, couples having to stay separate as other reasons. Personal safety, privacy too.

Though as someone who’s slept on the streets and in shelters, it is infinitely safer to sleep in a shelter.

I found an article referenced from 2017

A 2017 KGW investigation titled “Tent City, USA” identified similar concerns, including worries about shelter conditions and rules. A KGW survey of 100 people living in tents in Portland found 89% would rather stay in a tent over a shelter.

I remember running the numbers when the big encampment in the park was broken up and out of 70 campers that were still there when the cops and city arrived, 8 took them up on the offer of shelter for the night. The other 62 turned it down.

We currently have aprox 250-260 unoccupied shelter beds around the city every night

 

[DoctorTaco]

punish a homeless or non homeless person for assault or theft.

love the policy. Can we do the same with using drugs in public, urinating/pooping in the streets, tossing used needles, public exposure, menacing, maybe you could call the giant piles of trash and stolen bike parts littering? blocking sidewalks with tents and lean-tos?

 

[avenue94]

love the policy. Can we do the same with using drugs in public, urinating/pooping in the streets, tossing used needles, public exposure, menacing, maybe you could call the giant piles of trash and stolen bike parts littering? blocking sidewalks with tents and lean-tos?

Most of those I would lump into the category of jailing or fining someone here is counterproductive until enough shelters and access to it exists. Which is the case in most major metro areas. I'm fine with banning tents if they completely block a sidewalk. Where exactly do you want people to set up there tents?

I'm not even sure how one would constitutionally punish "menacing."

 

[Limbo Pete]

Umm.....so if they can't pay and have nowhere to stay, what exactly are they supposed to do?

Jail, apparently

 

[DoctorTaco]

Most of those I would lump into the category of jailing or fining someone here is counterproductive until enough shelters and access to it exists. Which is the case in most major metro areas. I'm fine with banning tents if they completely block a sidewalk. Where exactly do you want people to set up there tents?

I'm not even sure how one would constitutionally punish "menacing."

Respectfully, I don’t think you fully understand how bad it is in cities like Portland. The P2P meth started a zombie apocalypse like situation with the homeless community. Until we can start to 51/50 all of the people suffering from meth induced psychosis,
Hoarding and schizophrenia, there’s no point in trying to help them in any other way. They need medication, sobriety, and THEN a leg up with social services, free/reduced cost housing, job training and placement, disability and unemployment cash, etc.

We do in fact have enough shelter beds. Hundreds of unused all over the city every night.

If you’re walking down the street and I get in your face aggressively pan handling, demanding money, then follow you for blocks making threats, you can’t think of a constitutional punishment?

Re: tent placement- out of the way of sidewalks, schools and freeways. not doing EXTREME damage to our local ecology.

 

[Andy Capp]

I could find the article. It was a big ugly camp smack in the middle of one of the cities largest and most beautiful parks. When they finally came and did something about it they had vouchers for short term housing and advocates from non profits offering to assist them in getting in a shelter spot.

Most of the push back you read when the folks are interviewed boil down to the rules. Shelters have curfews, no “in and out” policies when it’s late at night, don’t allow drugs or alcohol. Reasonable precautions but when you’re used to being an outdoor cat the idea of anyone telling you what to do tends to rub folks the wrong way.

Edit: reading more on it and people site no pets allowed, couples having to stay separate as other reasons. Personal safety, privacy too.

Though as someone who’s slept on the streets and in shelters, it is infinitely safer to sleep in a shelter.

I found an article referenced from 2017

I remember running the numbers when the big encampment in the park was broken up and out of 70 campers that were still there when the cops and city arrived, 8 took them up on the offer of shelter for the night. The other 62 turned it down.

We currently have aprox 250-260 unoccupied shelter beds around the city every night

I would like to know how many of those 62 turned it down because they're women who felt unsafe--men too for that matter.

I have reason to believe that's the main reason, except in the case of this place in Oregon where a church run shelter will kick out disabled homeless people because they can't keep up with the workload.

If you'd been kicked out of shelters before because you (for whatever reason, particularly mental illness or other disability) cannot follow the rules, would you accept an offer to pack up all your shit and go somewhere you've been already kicked out of?

 

[Andy Capp]

Respectfully, I don’t think you fully understand how bad it is in cities like Portland. The P2P meth started a zombie apocalypse like situation with the homeless community. Until we can start to 51/50 all of the people suffering from meth induced psychosis,
Hoarding and schizophrenia, there’s no point in trying to help them in any other way. They need medication, sobriety, and THEN a leg up with social services, free/reduced cost housing, job training and placement, disability and unemployment cash, etc.

We do in fact have enough shelter beds. Hundreds of unused all over the city every night.

If you’re walking down the street and I get in your face aggressively pan handling, demanding money, then follow you for blocks making threats, you can’t think of a constitutional punishment?

Re: tent placement- out of the way of sidewalks, schools and freeways. not doing EXTREME damage to our local ecology.

If you get in my face and follow me for blocks I'm liable to punch you out then call the police. Not sure what that has to do with anything. Existing laws are adequate to deal with such incidents, don't you think?

 

[DoctorTaco]

I would like to know how many of those 62 turned it down because they're women who felt unsafe--men too for that matter.

I have reason to believe that's the main reason, except in the case of this place in Oregon where a church run shelter will kick out disabled homeless people because they can't keep up with the workload.

If you'd been kicked out of shelters before because you (for whatever reason, particularly mental illness or other disability) cannot follow the rules, would you accept an offer to pack up all your shit and go somewhere you've been already kicked out of?

There are shelters run by women for women. And the plurality of options negate the “bad experience” idea bc they can just choose a different shelter.

Church shelters always have strings attached. Far and away my least favorite option when I was out there.

If you are too disabled or mentally ill to follow some very simple cohabitation conditions then I think it’s time the state steps in to help. The alternative is what, this same mentally ill person or secerely handicapped person living on the street ?

 

[DoctorTaco]

If you get in my face and follow me for blocks I'm liable to punch you out then call the police. Not sure what that has to do with anything. Existing laws are adequate to deal with such incidents, don't you think?

Meant for the other poster who questioned the constitutional punishment for menacing

 

[Andy Capp]

There are shelters run by women for women. And the plurality of options negate the “bad experience” idea bc they can just choose a different shelter.

Church shelters always have strings attached. Far and away my least favorite option when I was out there.

If you are too disabled or mentally ill to follow some very simple cohabitation conditions then I think it’s time the state steps in to help. The alternative is what, this same mentally ill person or secerely handicapped person living on the street ?

But do these places exist in this particular town to which your claim of 90% declining shelter was applied?

Earlier on ITT the point was made there are exactly 4 shelters in town, one of which had those harsh religious requirements to which I referred. How many spaces were left in the remaining shelters?


Disclaimer: I would never make light of your having gone homeless or minimize your struggle. I barely escaped that fate through pure luck on at least 3 occasions. But I fully understand the safety concerns of people whose choices boil down to being confined to a room with a bunch of other mentally ill people or getting rousted out of their tents.

 

[avenue94]

Respectfully, I don’t think you fully understand how bad it is in cities like Portland.

I used to work a couple blocks from Skid Row in LA. Up to you if you think I fully grasp the severity of homelessness or not.

The P2P meth started a zombie apocalypse like situation with the homeless community. Until we can start to 51/50 all of the people suffering from meth induced psychosis,

Regionally, there are instances where drugs don't help and maybe even exacerbate homelessness. But nationally, there's no evidence that drug use rates correlate with homelessness.

We do in fact have enough shelter beds. Hundreds of unused all over the city every night

Portland does not. The county has 3,220 beds at most this year, homeless population is at least 6,300.

If you’re walking down the street and I get in your face aggressively pan handling, demanding money, then follow you for blocks making threats, you can’t think of a constitutional punishment?

Making threats could be punished as assault. Aggressive pan handling or demanding money without actually committing robbery is not a crime, unless we plan on making being an asshole or shitty human a crime too.

They need medication, sobriety, and THEN a leg up with social services, free/reduced cost housing, job training and placement, disability and unemployment cash, etc.

You're putting the cart before the horse. If the goal is drug treatment and mental health services, both are far easier to do once someone is in housing.

 

[DoctorTaco]

I used to work a couple blocks from Skid Row in LA. Up to you if you think I fully grasp the severity of homelessness or not.

When? Because it’s changed dramatically.

Regionally, there are instances where drugs don't help and maybe even exacerbate homelessness. But nationally, there's no evidence that drug use rates correlate with homelessness.

Drug use maybe exacerbates homeless? Come on now. It’s squares and rectangles. There are plenty of drug addicts with homes but the vast majority of homeless will tell you that their addiction led them to the streets.

Portland does not. The county has 3,220 beds at most this year, homeless population is at least 6,300

And yet there are hundreds of open beds all over the city every night.

You're putting the cart before the horse. If the goal is drug treatment and mental health services, both are far easier to do once someone is in housing.

If someone is high out of their skull on meth and fent, up for days at a time, disrupting traffic and literally barking at the moon and screaming at strangers, vandalizing businesses, assaulting people, you think giving them an apartment is step one??

 

[avenue94]

When? Because it’s changed dramatically.

2017-2020 and I come through the area and downtown a lot.

Drug use maybe exacerbates homeless? Come on now. It’s squares and rectangles. There are plenty of drug addicts with homes but the vast majority of homeless will tell you that their addiction led them to the streets.

Yes, and the vast majority of homeless also have 10 toes, but you wouldn't argue that having 10 toes causes homelessness, would you? You can run a statistical analysis, you'll find next to no correlation between drug use rates (or ODs) and homeless rates. Or to put it in layman's terms, it's more likely that homeless causes people to do drugs or to relapse than it is that doing drugs causes homelessness.

And yet there are hundreds of open beds all over the city every night.

And? That doesn't change that there isn't enough capacity for homeless even if usage was 100%.

If someone is high out of their skull on meth and fent, up for days at a time, disrupting traffic and literally barking at the moon and screaming at strangers, vandalizing businesses, assaulting people, you think giving them an apartment is step one??

Some combination of housing and treatment (there's obviously a gradient from the strictest form of this to looser forms of it) would lead to better outcomes and save taxpayer money compared to the status quo.

Not sure why you're trying to ascribe a worst case caricature to a homeless population that primarily does not resemble this. You're doing what a lot of folks here do, which is apply personal biases or sample bias to the entire problem. Some of the actions you've named are already crimes, some are not and should not be.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I don't know that i've ever met someone less capable of owning up to a mistake on the internet lmao

He's still insisting that it was crazy and proof of bias for journalists to ask in 2020 what would happen if Trump didn't accept the election results.