Official Coaches and Trainers Discussion

[theranch]

People will disagree, but I definitely like mitt work for my competitive fighters.

An overwhelming amount of our team training revolves around partner drills. When you have two partners who don't have fundamental knowledge of the drills they are doing, then what you have is the blind leading the blind. Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

There are a TON of videos online that show terrible mitt feeders. Cutesy "progressive style" mitt work where the coach slaps at the fighters hands, the fighter turns over zero punches, leaves their head dead center, has terrible posture, etc.

There are nearly as many videos out there of partner drills that also look like absolute dog shit, and it's because the people involved in the drill are not being directed by a coach.

When I feed mitts, I treat it very similar to a partner drill, except I'm the partner and I bring a level of knowledge and experience that can't be matched by a newer fighter. When I feed, I'm focusing on specific skills and techniques, so there is always a clear focus. Regardless of the direct focus, I can also work on things that are adjacent, but not directly worked on in the drill.

For example, if I'm working with a fighter on ranged combinations, I'll also be correcting their distance, their angles (cutting off the ring and not chasing), posture, ensuring they typically circle away from my power, passive head movement and feints, amongst other things. If I have this fighter partnered with a newer member working on ranged combinations, they could certainly do well with that specific focus, but can often lose sight of the rest of the fight game.

To mitigate this, coaches float around during partner drills to micromanage these things. Sharing the ring with a fighter, I often feel like I can explain some of the most subtle of nuances they wouldn't otherwise see.

The most common argument I hear is "Why not just do a partner drill with them then?", and it's valid, but also has it's shortcomings.

I have one guy who is 6'7" and 245 lbs. I'm just under 5'11" and about 160 lbs. I simply can't fully mimic what he would see in an opponent if I did a partner drill. Typically I'll hold paddles instead of mitts to help compensate for the aggressive size disparity.

Another thing that you get to do with pads that you can't always do with partner drills is throw things at full speed and with full power. Partner drills will focus on the defense of slips, rolls, distance, and angles, but our system uses a fair share of catching as well. Zero chance I'm gonna catch body shots at full speed from any of my fighters if I want sneeze without wanting to die the next day.

There are other benefits that I see, but I can respect those who choose not to use them. I can see the argument that are unnecessary, and to that I would say to each their own, but I really struggle when people insist that they "aren't" or "can't" be helpful for fighter development.

i actually think that mitts are more beneficial for beginners and still think they can be useful for fighters i just don't think they are 100% necesarry. im a big fan of using the body shield in combination with wearing gloves so that the fighters get a sort of meet in the middle between drills and sparring but can throw to the body full force like they would on pads or the bag. they get to react to punches coming at them not prerehearsed but not trying to hurt them and can learn to fight in and out of different ranges, circle away from the power hand and deal with a slightly more active defense than drills. although like you say this still relies on being a similar sort of size which for me at 5' 10'' 150lbs is an issue.

 

[shincheckin]

People will disagree, but I definitely like mitt work for my competitive fighters.

An overwhelming amount of our team training revolves around partner drills. When you have two partners who don't have fundamental knowledge of the drills they are doing, then what you have is the blind leading the blind. Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

There are a TON of videos online that show terrible mitt feeders. Cutesy "progressive style" mitt work where the coach slaps at the fighters hands, the fighter turns over zero punches, leaves their head dead center, has terrible posture, etc.

There are nearly as many videos out there of partner drills that also look like absolute dog shit, and it's because the people involved in the drill are not being directed by a coach.

When I feed mitts, I treat it very similar to a partner drill, except I'm the partner and I bring a level of knowledge and experience that can't be matched by a newer fighter. When I feed, I'm focusing on specific skills and techniques, so there is always a clear focus. Regardless of the direct focus, I can also work on things that are adjacent, but not directly worked on in the drill.

For example, if I'm working with a fighter on ranged combinations, I'll also be correcting their distance, their angles (cutting off the ring and not chasing), posture, ensuring they typically circle away from my power, passive head movement and feints, amongst other things. If I have this fighter partnered with a newer member working on ranged combinations, they could certainly do well with that specific focus, but can often lose sight of the rest of the fight game.

To mitigate this, coaches float around during partner drills to micromanage these things. Sharing the ring with a fighter, I often feel like I can explain some of the most subtle of nuances they wouldn't otherwise see.

The most common argument I hear is "Why not just do a partner drill with them then?", and it's valid, but also has it's shortcomings.

I have one guy who is 6'7" and 245 lbs. I'm just under 5'11" and about 160 lbs. I simply can't fully mimic what he would see in an opponent if I did a partner drill. Typically I'll hold paddles instead of mitts to help compensate for the aggressive size disparity.

Another thing that you get to do with pads that you can't always do with partner drills is throw things at full speed and with full power. Partner drills will focus on the defense of slips, rolls, distance, and angles, but our system uses a fair share of catching as well. Zero chance I'm gonna catch body shots at full speed from any of my fighters if I want sneeze without wanting to die the next day.

There are other benefits that I see, but I can respect those who choose not to use them. I can see the argument that are unnecessary, and to that I would say to each their own, but I really struggle when people insist that they "aren't" or "can't" be helpful for fighter development.

i agree with this, pads can be great, pads can be shit. Drills can be great, drills can be shit. They are very similar to each other.

 

[shincheckin]

US Muay Thai is way behind, but we’re catching up. The kids team are cleaning up In international competitions thanks to guys like Patrick Rivera and Bryan dobbler
i charge 60 for people going lesson to lesson, sell 4 for 200 and 8 for 350. I’m always 10 minutes early so my clients can warm up and stretch out before we start. When we’re on the clock I try not to waste time stretching and skipping rope but if they’re late I won’t work with them until they’re safely ready to go.

Edit: under my old pricing model I used to do 40/hour for fighters who had a fight coming up that they were matched for, but my prices have gone up since then and I need to figure out how that works now

I know plenty of guys from dobblers, students, fighters, coaches, refs. I dont think the girl that ko jazzy par is great becuase of the coaching/training received there. I could be wrong, but when I heard about it, that is not what crossed my mind. Not trying to downtalk the gym or anyone there but my understanding is its much less of a fighters gym when compared to a gym like the yard for example.

 

[Sinister]

People will disagree, but I definitely like mitt work for my competitive fighters.

An overwhelming amount of our team training revolves around partner drills. When you have two partners who don't have fundamental knowledge of the drills they are doing, then what you have is the blind leading the blind. Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

There are a TON of videos online that show terrible mitt feeders. Cutesy "progressive style" mitt work where the coach slaps at the fighters hands, the fighter turns over zero punches, leaves their head dead center, has terrible posture, etc.

There are nearly as many videos out there of partner drills that also look like absolute dog shit, and it's because the people involved in the drill are not being directed by a coach.

When I feed mitts, I treat it very similar to a partner drill, except I'm the partner and I bring a level of knowledge and experience that can't be matched by a newer fighter. When I feed, I'm focusing on specific skills and techniques, so there is always a clear focus. Regardless of the direct focus, I can also work on things that are adjacent, but not directly worked on in the drill.

For example, if I'm working with a fighter on ranged combinations, I'll also be correcting their distance, their angles (cutting off the ring and not chasing), posture, ensuring they typically circle away from my power, passive head movement and feints, amongst other things. If I have this fighter partnered with a newer member working on ranged combinations, they could certainly do well with that specific focus, but can often lose sight of the rest of the fight game.

To mitigate this, coaches float around during partner drills to micromanage these things. Sharing the ring with a fighter, I often feel like I can explain some of the most subtle of nuances they wouldn't otherwise see.

The most common argument I hear is "Why not just do a partner drill with them then?", and it's valid, but also has it's shortcomings.

I have one guy who is 6'7" and 245 lbs. I'm just under 5'11" and about 160 lbs. I simply can't fully mimic what he would see in an opponent if I did a partner drill. Typically I'll hold paddles instead of mitts to help compensate for the aggressive size disparity.

Another thing that you get to do with pads that you can't always do with partner drills is throw things at full speed and with full power. Partner drills will focus on the defense of slips, rolls, distance, and angles, but our system uses a fair share of catching as well. Zero chance I'm gonna catch body shots at full speed from any of my fighters if I want sneeze without wanting to die the next day.

There are other benefits that I see, but I can respect those who choose not to use them. I can see the argument that are unnecessary, and to that I would say to each their own, but I really struggle when people insist that they "aren't" or "can't" be helpful for fighter development.

I don't disagree with doing GOOD mitt work, but man I got like 20 competitive fighters. My mitt-work is rough on me as well and I just ain't fighting 20 guys a day with rickety joints:







Right now my assistant does most of the mitt-work as he's learning to do it, but I'm sure the first time he can't pick up a gallon of milk because of tendinitis he'll start drilling then more. Lol

 

[William Huggins]

I don't disagree with doing GOOD mitt work, but man I got like 20 competitive fighters. My mitt-work is rough on me as well and I just ain't fighting 20 guys a day with rickety joints:







Right now my assistant does most of the mitt-work as he's learning to do it, but I'm sure the first time he can't pick up a gallon of milk because of tendinitis he'll start drilling then more. Lol

Sometimes I really don't think the average person on this site understands what it actually means to hold pads or mitts with a fighter that can generate such speed and power, your basically throwing them out for the fighter to intercept, doing this day in and day out takes its toll........

 

[DoctorTaco]

I don't disagree with doing GOOD mitt work, but man I got like 20 competitive fighters. My mitt-work is rough on me as well and I just ain't fighting 20 guys a day with rickety joints:







Right now my assistant does most of the mitt-work as he's learning to do it, but I'm sure the first time he can't pick up a gallon of milk because of tendinitis he'll start drilling then more. Lol

the nice thing about having a proper coach/fighter relationship is you can decide if and when you hold mitts for them. the team i work with, the sponsored fighters, they aren't paying me so they don't decide if and when I hold mitts for them. although I do occaionally get stuck with a 300lb professional football player fitness client. that dude gets 3-5 rounds on the noodles before I switch to pads.

Sometimes I really don't think the average person on this site understands what it actually means to hold pads or mitts with a fighter that can generate such speed and power, your basically throwing them out for the fighter to intercept, doing this day in and day out takes its toll........

especially when you're built like Lu or myself. im 5'10 and around 145-150. if you look at most professional pad men they are all pretty thick, fat dudes. that mass has to be helpful. I'm trying to find a PT to work trade with me so I can put some muscle on and reinforce my joints a little better. when ever I try and work out on my own the cumulative stress of training and holding mitts ends up wrecking me worse than I was before

 

[j123]

I know plenty of guys from dobblers, students, fighters, coaches, refs. I dont think the girl that ko jazzy par is great becuase of the coaching/training received there. I could be wrong, but when I heard about it, that is not what crossed my mind. Not trying to downtalk the gym or anyone there but my understanding is its much less of a fighters gym when compared to a gym like the yard for example.

Every gym has someone's who's great, its a big world out there. There's alot of peeps who make waves with just talent alone, but gyms will claim their success because of it. Known guys who came from good camps for their entire journey, but fall out, head to a new gym where they feel "magic" they once felt. Then the new gym claims their methods helped him/her win even though said fighter didn't do jack from that gym.

especially when you're built like Lu or myself. im 5'10 and around 145-150. if you look at most professional pad men they are all pretty thick, fat dudes. that mass has to be helpful. I'm trying to find a PT to work trade with me so I can put some muscle on and reinforce my joints a little better. when ever I try and work out on my own the cumulative stress of training and holding mitts ends up wrecking me worse than I was before

Just get fat from McDonalds, cheap, quick, and effective

 

[shincheckin]

Im pretty much on board with the whole pads vs drills things being said here. Additional benefits some already mentioned some not, you can work plenty of guys at the same time, theres different drills, where the students use their gloves as mitts, or where the drill may be a attack counter drill for example, meaning no "pad" simulation with the gloves is being done. this type of drill is much more like a dutch drill, sparring drill, situational type drill. Lastly, its less gym expenses, why have 50 pairs of pads for students to hold when they can just use their gloves.

Regarding getting sore from holding pads, a good work around for that is the paddles. Primarily for punching, but the paddles can be good for punch to kick combinations, when they are throwing head kicks to the paddle. It makes much more sense to let them kick a paddle, or even a pad in this fashion to the head, then hold both pads at your head for a kick. Thats my little pad holding head kick trick for ya.

 

[Sinister]

Im pretty much on board with the whole pads vs drills things being said here. Additional benefits some already mentioned some not, you can work plenty of guys at the same time, theres different drills, where the students use their gloves as mitts, or where the drill may be a attack counter drill for example, meaning no "pad" simulation with the gloves is being done. this type of drill is much more like a dutch drill, sparring drill, situational type drill. Lastly, its less gym expenses, why have 50 pairs of pads for students to hold when they can just use their gloves.

Regarding getting sore from holding pads, a good work around for that is the paddles. Primarily for punching, but the paddles can be good for punch to kick combinations, when they are throwing head kicks to the paddle. It makes much more sense to let them kick a paddle, or even a pad in this fashion to the head, then hold both pads at your head for a kick. Thats my little pad holding head kick trick for ya.

I use those and pool noodles from time to time.

 

[Ilk]

Not sure if I am allowed to post here. I would like to share the client perspective. I have been in numerous gyms in Bulgaria and Turkey doing MT, Dutch KB and boxing. I am your "white collar" guy that enjoys the sport and is willing to pay to leArn the sport and fighting.

Regarding pad holding. I was enjoying it mainly when it was used to polish my technique and stance when I entered boxing. I needed a lot of polishing to be honest and still needs.
Then I enjoy it when it gets playful with the coach. I hate hitting the pads heavy, I rather have the coach guide me on the heavy bag when I am trying to unleash.

I liked partner drills a lot. But nicely crafted partner drills. When I was.doing dutch KB there were some nice partner drills. However currently I do not like these partner drills in the boxing gym as they are not carefully crafted imo. What I mean is I would never slip out - slip in as a defensive move against the 1-2. That cross is always going to hit me. See if it was a nicely crafted drill as a slip out weave under come up with a left hook, right hand. Then count me in.

I like partner drills developing into light spar. And finishing the workout with a light spar or heavy bag banging.

I hate finishing with cardio or core work. Man I work out on my own. Your crunches or burpees are not going to make me better. Better make me unleash on the bag.

Generally I like starting technical, then drills, then heavy work like spar or heavy bag.

 

[theranch]

Question to the more Experienced/ Full time coaches. do you take any specific precautions when doing Mittwork? for example i know Dave Coldwell will always tape his wrists up or wear compression sleeves on his elbows, anything like this or specific wrist, hand, shoulder or elbow exercises to try and minimise the damage?

 

[Cheap Shot]

Question to the more Experienced/ Full time coaches. do you take any specific precautions when doing Mittwork? for example i know Dave Coldwell will always tape his wrists up or wear compression sleeves on his elbows, anything like this or specific wrist, hand, shoulder or elbow exercises to try and minimize the damage?

Spending money on the right gear is worth it when it comes to mitts.

Speed/Micro mitts for lighter punchers or general finesse work.
Air mitts for harder work and bigger punchers.
Noodles/Sticks/Paddles for taller fighters, the heaviest hitters, or when I want to take the stress off my shoulders and elbows. These have a ton of other applications as well obviously, but I'm referring exclusively to how they can be used to minimize wear and tear on a trainer.

Investing in a pair of Winning Air Mitts is absolutely worth while if you're going to spending hours a week with mitts.

I don't personally wrap or tape my wrist, but I have a history of wrist issues while holding mitts, so I go out of my way to purchase and use mitts with fantastic wrist support. Many mitts have support that sits on the back of the hand rather than BELOW the wrist, so it essentially just keeps the mitt from flying off your hand, but doesn't add any real support.

Also, almost every pair of mitts I use have a finger hood. This is especially important when working with newer fighters who lack control, technique, or throw something I didn't call for. If you catch a bad punch on a finger, it suuuuuuuucks. Most mitts that don't have a finger hood have a model that does for a few dollars more, and it's absolutely worth the money.

I don't use "standard" mitts very often anymore (like, panther stye mitts) as I feel like they don't offer an ideal situation for me. Too heavy for finesse work and not enough impact absorption for the big boys.

 

[theranch]

Spending money on the right gear is worth it when it comes to mitts.

Speed/Micro mitts for lighter punchers or general finesse work.
Air mitts for harder work and bigger punchers.
Noodles/Sticks/Paddles for taller fighters, the heaviest hitters, or when I want to take the stress off my shoulders and elbows. These have a ton of other applications as well obviously, but I'm referring exclusively to how they can be used to minimize wear and tear on a trainer.

Investing in a pair of Winning Air Mitts is absolutely worth while if you're going to spending hours a week with mitts.

I don't personally wrap or tape my wrist, but I have a history of wrist issues while holding mitts, so I go out of my way to purchase and use mitts with fantastic wrist support. Many mitts have support that sits on the back of the hand rather than BELOW the wrist, so it essentially just keeps the mitt from flying off your hand, but doesn't add any real support.

Also, almost every pair of mitts I use have a finger hood. This is especially important when working with newer fighters who lack control, technique, or throw something I didn't call for. If you catch a bad punch on a finger, it suuuuuuuucks. Most mitts that don't have a finger hood have a model that does for a few dollars more, and it's absolutely worth the money.

I don't use "standard" mitts very often anymore (like, panther stye mitts) as I feel like they don't offer an ideal situation for me. Too heavy for finesse work and not enough impact absorption for the big boys.

I invested in Some Rival air mitts at tge start of the year and my elbows and shoulders have thanked me ever since my only gripe with them is the finger hood issue you mentioned as if someone catches them slightly off centre it jams your fingers instantly. Reassuring to hear that it's worth making the investment, even if I'm nowhere near to coaching full time i suppose it's worth looking after my joints in the long run.

 

[j123]

Not sure if I am allowed to post here. I would like to share the client perspective. I have been in numerous gyms in Bulgaria and Turkey doing MT, Dutch KB and boxing. I am your "white collar" guy that enjoys the sport and is willing to pay to leArn the sport and fighting.

Regarding pad holding. I was enjoying it mainly when it was used to polish my technique and stance when I entered boxing. I needed a lot of polishing to be honest and still needs.
Then I enjoy it when it gets playful with the coach. I hate hitting the pads heavy, I rather have the coach guide me on the heavy bag when I am trying to unleash.

I liked partner drills a lot. But nicely crafted partner drills. When I was.doing dutch KB there were some nice partner drills. However currently I do not like these partner drills in the boxing gym as they are not carefully crafted imo. What I mean is I would never slip out - slip in as a defensive move against the 1-2. That cross is always going to hit me. See if it was a nicely crafted drill as a slip out weave under come up with a left hook, right hand. Then count me in.

I like partner drills developing into light spar. And finishing the workout with a light spar or heavy bag banging.

I hate finishing with cardio or core work. Man I work out on my own. Your crunches or burpees are not going to make me better. Better make me unleash on the bag.

Generally I like starting technical, then drills, then heavy work like spar or heavy bag.

This is something I agree with as well, at the end of the day you're paying the gym/coach for his or her knowledge on the subject, doing finisher conditioning you can do on your own, and in most cases probably something more inline with your needs.

On the other hand my coaching model guarantees easy money

1h class:
58min burpees
2min shadow boxing
Visa charged: $265.85

 

[shincheckin]

I invested in Some Rival air mitts at tge start of the year and my elbows and shoulders have thanked me ever since my only gripe with them is the finger hood issue you mentioned as if someone catches them slightly off centre it jams your fingers instantly. Reassuring to hear that it's worth making the investment, even if I'm nowhere near to coaching full time i suppose it's worth looking after my joints in the long run.

to piggy back off what cheap shot said, yes I totally agree good equipment makes a huge difference. Even with good brands, for really heavy kickers, you have to get their largest, thickest, densest pads.

I find holding pads for someone experienced, it is much less likely chance for injury vs holding pads for beginners.

Some beginners that are very stiff, awkward movement type people, will rip your shoulders off when they hit the pads, those really herky jerky type guys, they dont know wtf they are doing.

The other high chance for injury is holding pads for knees for noobs, they usually miss and knee you in your nuts, or miss and knee you in your face. I take extra precaution when holding for knees for beginners.

 

[shincheckin]

This is something I agree with as well, at the end of the day you're paying the gym/coach for his or her knowledge on the subject, doing finisher conditioning you can do on your own, and in most cases probably something more inline with your needs.

On the other hand my coaching model guarantees easy money

1h class:
58min burpees
2min shadow boxing
Visa charged: $265.85

im on board with you guys with this as well, i been there done that.........the majority of the gyms advertise, hey join my gym and learn how to box/MT/etc. when in reality the membership really just gives you access to the facility, and the classes are just boxercise type classes more or less. Im still pretty pissed off about the gym that i left having me shadow box all night and then go fight. Hey howd you prepare for this fight? I shadow boxed! Its not cool at all to be sent to fight unprepared. That being said, it seems that this problems I mentioned are quite common in the boxing and muay thai world, not so much with BJJ, it is alot less watered down.

 

[j123]

im on board with you guys with this as well, i been there done that.........the majority of the gyms advertise, hey join my gym and learn how to box/MT/etc. when in reality the membership really just gives you access to the facility, and the classes are just boxercise type classes more or less. Im still pretty pissed off about the gym that i left having me shadow box all night and then go fight. Hey howd you prepare for this fight? I shadow boxed! Its not cool at all to be sent to fight unprepared. That being said, it seems that this problems I mentioned are quite common in the boxing and muay thai world, not so much with BJJ, it is alot less watered down.

Yeah and if you won that fight, they'd take all the credit for their superior training methods

 

[shincheckin]

Yeah and if you won that fight, they'd take all the credit for their superior training methods

big huge rant deleted. long story short, theres some really poor coaches out there, a friend of mine with only a few amatuer fights, was sent to fight alexandru nita under the impression it was a amatuer fight, as he only had a few fights himself, however he is romanias #1 fighter. Coach pocketed all the money.




For myself personally, I would like to try and be the next Bryan Popejoy, or be the Cus D'a,amato of muaythai.

 

[j123]

big huge rant deleted. long story short, theres some really poor coaches out there, a friend of mine with only a few amatuer fights, was sent to fight alexandru nita under the impression it was a amatuer fight, as he only had a few fights himself, however he is romanias #1 fighter. Coach pocketed all the money.




For myself personally, I would like to try and be the next Bryan Popejoy, or be the Cus D'a,amato of muaythai.

We should all aim to be the next Edmund. GOAT coach

 

[shincheckin]

We should all aim to be the next Edmund. GOAT coach

to rhondas credit, she did exactly what her coach told her to do, i can specifically recall him telling her inbetween rounds left hook left hook, right before she went out and fell to the ground missing that left hook.