Combat jiu jitsu - Cerrone vs Jones

[DatCutman]

Ok nice but he talking about superhuman claims regarding the spear hand. Nowhere do I see him say that punching or palm striking a wallbag is not beneficial for conditioning.
It helps toughen the hand, desensitizes to pain and enables one to work on alignment and force generation when hitting without gloves all of which will enable one to strike harder.

I think he's referring to these posts:

Schools I trained at had some wall bags filled with dried mung beans and some filled with small stones.

I take it you don't like me introducing the grappling forum to hardcore Gung Fu Iron Palm training that they can use to hurt someone in a combat Jiu Jitsu rules match?

In the context of palm strikes (which is what the thread is ultimately focused on, and why I ignore any claims made about closed fist strikes) desensitizing to pain doesn't really make any sense. Anyone, even a small child, wouldn't hesitate in palm striking a concrete wall.

"Toughening" the hand, similarly, doesn't make sense. To create a palm with an iron like consistency is, as we've discussed, a nonexistent super human feat. While I've seen grotesque swollen palm pictures, there's no indication that they are "iron like," or provide any significant advantage over a normal palm. What then would it need toughness for? To avoid skin ripping? Unless you're overly concerned about your palm catching and scraping teeth, there's no reason to do that.

I think the only item of merit in your post is that hitting things will allow you to work on alignment and force generation, which is true. But you can hit anything for that purpose; and there's no point to start with mung beans and work your way up to something that's actually hard unless you have a physical disability and are afraid anything beyond mung bean consistency will destroy your body. You can both start and end with hitting a wooden pole, as my beloved sumo wrestlers do during teppo training. Given that palm strikes are a central part of their sport, they will freely demonstrate their skills, and there are many videos showcasing their palm strikes against resisting opponents, I think I would find their training regimen more convincing than these mysterious Iron Palm masters who somehow can't be found.

Whether it's palm striking a concrete wall, a wooden pole, or mung beans (?why?), you'll get force generation training. Which really makes the suggestion itself so simplistic as to be trite; "if you want stronger palm strikes, practice palm striking". The concept of any super human palm consistency being developed is silly, as is the idea of thousands of reps on beans, then sand, then metal shards, then a wall, then a tungsten cube. There is no magic alchemical transformation that takes place.

 

[TheMaster]

In the context of palm strikes (which is what the thread is ultimately focused on, and why I ignore any claims made about closed fist strikes) desensitizing to pain doesn't really make any sense. Anyone, even a small child, wouldn't hesitate in palm striking a concrete wall.

I don't think you've ever thrown one in your life. So do so before talking next time and spewing nonsense, in the hopes sarcasm covers the idiocy of the content which it doesn't.
Try palm striking a concrete wall full power. Not only will you fail miserably, you will realize it needs to be built up gradually and is painful and has to be done correctly. Unless you hit like a 7 year old girl which is possible.

"Toughening" the hand, similarly, doesn't make sense. To create a palm with an iron like consistency is, as we've discussed, a nonexistent super human feat. While I've seen grotesque swollen palm pictures, there's no indication that they are "iron like," or provide any significant advantage over a normal palm. What then would it need toughness for? To avoid skin ripping? Unless you're overly concerned about your palm catching and scraping teeth, there's no reason to do that.

Again, you are someone who is clueless on the subject matter but for some unknown reaons feels entitled to talk about it. Why is unknown.

Either way, if you had experience doing palm heels you know that that not only the base of palm with padding but also the base of the hand and connection to the wrist bone can strike. Here there is little to no padding it is bone on bone so yes it can be conditioned the contact point is not always guaranteed.

I think the only item of merit in your post is that hitting things will allow you to work on alignment and force generation, which is true. But you can hit anything for that purpose; and there's no point to start with mung beans and work your way up to something that's actually hard unless you have a physical disability and are afraid anything beyond mung bean consistency will destroy your body. You can both start and end with hitting a wooden pole, as my beloved sumo wrestlers do during teppo training. Given that palm strikes are a central part of their sport, they will freely demonstrate their skills, and there are many videos showcasing their palm strikes against resisting opponents, I think I would find their training regimen more convincing than these mysterious Iron Palm masters who somehow can't be found.

Whether it's palm striking a concrete wall, a wooden pole, or mung beans (?why?), you'll get force generation training. Which really makes the suggestion itself so simplistic as to be trite; "if you want stronger palm strikes, practice palm striking". The concept of any super human palm consistency being developed is silly, as is the idea of thousands of reps on beans, then sand, then metal shards, then a wall, then a tungsten cube. There is no magic alchemical transformation that takes place.

Based on the above point the rest of your post is irrelevant.
Yes, palm a wooden pole is fine. Or palm strike a stone filled wallbag was my suggestion.
Progression from mung beans to stone is only really necessary for the bare fist yes this is true.

 

[listrahtes]

Are straight line (put another way, not hooks, but straights) palms allowed on the ground in CJJ? If so, we need open palm strikes while standing; maybe kicks allowed, but give a massive amount of points for the first person to be standing while the other is on the ground (anything other than feet). Minor points for pushing an opponent out of bounds to incentivize pushing the pace.

Essentially I'm trying to smuggle sumo into jiu jitsu.

Very good idea. The intensity and stand up of Sumo combined with similar allowed strikes at the ground plus submissions. I would love to see someone like Enho or Hoshoryu in this ruleset. But this will not go down. Imo (please correct me if wrong) but bjj players love this playing around for sweeps, position in medium intensity. its what makes it so boring to watch but so fun to practice.

The athletic intensity of high level wrestling & sumo is just on annother level. Thats why the bjj fighters themselves would not go for it and we end up with MMA again which is not bad.

Still very good idea!

 

[listrahtes]

The concept of any super human palm consistency being developed is silly, as is the idea of thousands of reps on beans, then sand, then metal shards, then a wall, then a tungsten cube. There is no magic alchemical transformation that takes place.

What actually will happen with punching hard objects repeatedly is weakening of bone density. They have found that with many MT practitioners regarding their shins. You get more bones protruding and feel less pain as you kill of your nociceptors but because of the repeated trauma the cage like structure of our bones gets weakend over time which results in much higher osteoporisis risk when being older. We cant "develop" our hands against hard objects. Best way , even as that doesnt sound as cool" is with conventional boxing with gloves, grappling or other hard manual labour. Rocky Marciano had hands like Godzilla just because of his bag work.

 

[DatCutman]

I don't think you've ever thrown one in your life.

I guarantee I have thrown more than you. I was the 3rd ranked sumo wrestler in Texas. While that's an incredibly shallow pool (a point I will always readily admit), I trained with boxers, former pro football players, and other grapplers to hone my palm attacks. I even engaged sherdog's own Sinister to understand how to better throw palm strikes. I would challenge you to show any video, at any point in time of you throwing a single palm strike, whether it be in competition (doubtful) or in compliance (also somewhat doubtful).

So do so before talking next time and spewing nonsense, in the hopes sarcasm covers the idiocy of the content which it doesn't.
Try palm striking a concrete wall full power. Not only will you fail miserably, you will realize it needs to be built up gradually and is painful and has to be done correctly. Unless you hit like a 7 year old girl which is possible.

I know retarded isn't a phrase that should be used in the modern day, as it isn't PC. However, reading things, I truly question if your mental abilities are in fact retarded in their development. Have you ever palm struck literally fucking anything? I have no compunction palm striking a concrete wall, a moving truck, a street, or anything else with my palm. A fist is a different matter entirely, but your assertion that the palm is some glass object that will shatter without proper conditioning implies a certain element of learning disability.

Again, you are someone who is clueless on the subject matter but for some unknown reason feels entitled to talk about it. Why is unknown.

We hate most in others what we hate most in our selves.

Either way, if you had experience doing palm heels you know that that not only the base of palm with padding but also the base of the hand and connection to the wrist bone can strike. Here there is little to no padding it is bone on bone so yes it can be conditioned the contact point is not always guaranteed.

What does this have to do with literally anything? Do you think you build up more bonemass by striking with the wrist vs the palm? I've listened to Bas Rutten likely as many times as you (and his infamous hammer wrist, vs hammer fist). Wolfe's law does lead to more calcium attraction, but a more brittle bone surface overall, showing that repetitive striking is actually detrimental to bone density and striking force than gung fu would suggest.

Based on the above point the rest of your post is irrelevant.

What an incredibly convenient way to avoid the fact you're full of shit.

Yes, palm a wooden pole is fine. Or palm strike a stone filled wallbag was my suggestion.
Progression from mung beans to stone is only really necessary for the bare fist yes this is true.

The irony is we agree, yet you feel the need to show your elevation above others (and other arts) in doing so. This is a tendency I really only see in people who have low self confidence in either their ability, or their martial art. To quote Reel Big Fish, I'm sure you've never been tested, but you'd like to think if you were, you would pass.

 

[TheMaster]

I guarantee I have thrown more than you. I was the 3rd ranked sumo wrestler in Texas. While that's an incredibly shallow pool (a point I will always readily admit), I trained with boxers, former pro football players, and other grapplers to hone my palm attacks. I even engaged sherdog's own Sinister to understand how to better throw palm strikes. I would challenge you to show any video, at any point in time of you throwing a single palm strike, whether it be in competition (doubtful) or in compliance (also somewhat doubtful).

Lmao at "I was a top ranked sumo wrestler".
Ok cool bro you got to wear a thong and eat lots of fatty soup, but Sumo pushes are not palm strikes. They are not strikes done to KO the opponent they are more like rapid pushes. Sumo is a tough sport no doubt but don't claim they are throwing Bas Rutten style palm heels with intent to KO that is just not accurate.

Have you ever palm struck literally fucking anything? I have no compunction palm striking a concrete wall, a moving truck, a street, or anything else with my palm. A fist is a different matter entirely, but your assertion that the palm is some glass object that will shatter without proper conditioning implies a certain element of learning disability.

If you're talking about those sumo push slaps maybe.
Palm heel striking a concrete wall full power is almost like punching it. No, you wouldn't be able to do it full power turning into it.
I can do maybe 80% power on concrete, making sure not to hit with the bone part connecting with the wrist.

There is a bit of padding but not a huge amount. Thats why striking something with a bit of 'give' is better like a stone filled bag.

Probably I just hit a lot harder than you which is no big deal.

Anyone is welcome to verify if they can palm heel strike a solid concrete wall full power. You use the bottom of the palm (more on the pinkie side not the thumb side).

What does this have to do with literally anything? Do you think you build up more bonemass by striking with the wrist vs the palm? I've listened to Bas Rutten likely as many times as you (and his infamous hammer wrist, vs hammer fist). Wolfe's law does lead to more calcium attraction, but a more brittle bone surface overall, showing that repetitive striking is actually detrimental to bone density and striking force than gung fu would suggest.

Conditioning.
Widely done in many combat sports to toughen a striking surface.
Done also in MT for shins.
Can also be done for barefist and for palm heels like I am taking about.
Has research to back it up. Look into it. If done properly it will strengthen the striking surface.

The irony is we agree,

Then don't make sarcastic posts trying to mock if you agree with what I'm saying

yet you feel the need to show your elevation above others (and other arts) in doing so. This is a tendency I really only see in people who have low self confidence in either their ability, or their martial art. To quote Reel Big Fish, I'm sure you've never been tested, but you'd like to think if you were, you would pass.

Not really. I shared a training method. The method was criticized and attacked. I disputed the arguments against mine none of which you have actually countered.

 

[TheMaster]

Very good idea. The intensity and stand up of Sumo combined with similar allowed strikes at the ground plus submissions. I would love to see someone like Enho or Hoshoryu in this ruleset. But this will not go down. Imo (please correct me if wrong) but bjj players love this playing around for sweeps, position in medium intensity. its what makes it so boring to watch but so fun to practice.

The athletic intensity of high level wrestling & sumo is just on annother level. Thats why the bjj fighters themselves would not go for it and we end up with MMA again which is not bad.

Still very good idea!

Apart from fact hes literally also bitchslapped your argument that punching barefist is safer than palm striking which is also what I said at the beginning.

 

[DatCutman]

Lmao at "I was a top ranked sumo wrestler".

I definitely didn't say I was top ranked. Even amongst the cloth clad nudists that are sumo wreslters, I could barely squeak out 3rd. In Texas. In a county in which Sumo doesn't matter. I am a has-been at best.

Ok cool bro you got to wear a thong and eat lots of fatty soup,

I'll admit I braced myself for many personal jabs. For example, that I was (at best) 3rd in Sumo. Meaning my best year, I lost twice. Or that I was successful in a sport that the vast majority of Texan's don't even know exists. Or, worse, that I wore a diaper, underwear, or a g-string.

But a thong? A THONG? There are limits to what a man can endure, and you sir are pressing against it.

but Sumo pushes are not palm strikes. They are not strikes done to KO the opponent they are more like rapid pushes. Sumo is a tough sport no doubt but don't claim they are throwing Bas Rutten style palm heels with intent to KO that is just not accurate.

I won't say you're totally inaccurate; the vast majority of palm strikes are pushes for sure. However...athletes desperate to win, despite being unskilled or of less than ideal body composition, will resort to "KO" victories. On this account you're unabashedly wrong.

If you're talking about those sumo push slaps maybe.
Palm heel striking a concrete wall full power is almost like punching it. No, you wouldn't be able to do it full power turning into it.
I can do maybe 80% power on concrete, making sure not to hit with the bone part connecting with the wrist.

This is confusing. I'll do this right now. There's no fear. Are you extremely brittle or something?

Probably I just hit a lot harder than you which is no big deal.

It could be. It could be you are the strongest...well, not a has-been, because you've done nothing. Maybe you're the strongest never-was?

Anyone is welcome to verify if they can palm heel strike a solid concrete wall full power. You use the bottom of the palm (more on the pinkie side not the thumb side).

Conditioning.
Widely done in many combat sports to toughen a striking surface.
Done also in MT for shins.

What is done to shins is irrelevant to palms.

Can also be done for barefist and for palm heels like I am taking about.
Has research to back it up. Look into it. If done properly it will strengthen the striking surface.

No, I won't look into it. Either provide your sources or fuck off.

Then don't make sarcastic posts trying to mock if you agree with what I'm saying

I was trying to give you a dignified out, because I don't believe in bullying people. Somehow you have made me reconsider this position.

Not really. I shared a training method. The method was criticized and attacked. I disputed the arguments against mine none of which you have actually countered.

You don't train. Where do you train? What gym? Hell, what state? I have ample vacation time now, and would love to learn how "real" palm strikes are thrown. Maybe I'll bump up to number two in sumo.

 

[TheMaster]

I'll admit I braced myself for many personal jabs. For example, that I was (at best) 3rd in Sumo. Meaning my best year, I lost twice. Or that I was successful in a sport that the vast majority of Texan's don't even know exists. Or, worse, that I wore a diaper, underwear, or a g-string.

But a thong? A THONG? There are limits to what a man can endure, and you sir are pressing against it.

Yes, you set yourself up

I won't say you're totally inaccurate; the vast majority of palm strikes are pushes for sure. However...athletes desperate to win, despite being unskilled or of less than ideal body composition, will resort to "KO" victories. On this account you're unabashedly wrong.

Ok so now I know there is a loophole in the rules wherebye I could KTFO people with palm strikes and maybe become a yokozuna in Sumo even being only 180 Ibs.
Similar to how I could maybe have success in Combat Jiu Jitsu which would be the only way I could succeed if I improved my defensive grappling.

This is confusing. I'll do this right now. There's no fear. Are you extremely brittle or something?

Whats confusing? Throw a waist turning straight palm heel full power on a pad or in the air a few times.
Now try doing the same on a concrete wall. You won't be able to.

An analogy would be like punching a bag with a 4 ounce MMA glove, then punching the wall full power with it on. Your hands gets busted up after a few and there is a risk of breaking it if you go full force. I'll wager there is more padding over the knuckle with a 4 ounce glove than with the bare palm.

What is done to shins is irrelevant to palms.

Not really. Bone is bone and strengthens the same way.

I was trying to give you a dignified out, because I don't believe in bullying people. Somehow you have made me reconsider this position.

Obviously, how can you just get verbally bitchslapped and then leave even more of a thong- wearing bitch than when you arrived?

You don't train. Where do you train? What gym? Hell, what state? I have ample vacation time now, and would love to learn how "real" palm strikes are thrown. Maybe I'll bump up to number two in sumo.

Striking walls and stone filled bags is basic training I do for fist and palm.

No magic I have and Bas has explained it as well as anyone

The palm is deceptive though since it can be a push, slap or KO blow which is why these combat JJ guys need to know what their getting in for if someone enters who is good at them.

 

[DoctorTaco]

What actually will happen with punching hard objects repeatedly is weakening of bone density. They have found that with many MT practitioners regarding their shins. You get more bones protruding and feel less pain as you kill of your nociceptors but because of the repeated trauma the cage like structure of our bones gets weakend over time which results in much higher osteoporisis risk when being older. We cant "develop" our hands against hard objects. Best way , even as that doesnt sound as cool" is with conventional boxing with gloves, grappling or other hard manual labour. Rocky Marciano had hands like Godzilla just because of his bag work.

i know a retired cutman and medic who was convinced too much bag work as a kid was the reason for a local hot shot boxer’s fragile right hand. Promising young ammy from generations ago that won a bunch of international fights, earned a spot on the Olympic team, but lagged when he went pro because of a fragile right hand.

 

[listrahtes]

I guarantee I have thrown more than you. I was the 3rd ranked sumo wrestler in Texas. While that's an incredibly shallow pool (a point I will always readily admit), I trained with boxers, former pro football players, and other grapplers to hone my palm attacks. I even engaged sherdog's own Sinister to understand how to better throw palm strikes. I would challenge you to show any video, at any point in time of you throwing a single palm strike, whether it be in competition (doubtful) or in compliance (also somewhat doubtful).

Dont sell yourself short that is a fantastic achievement and Sumo has some traction in the US so I am sure you had some competition for that 3rd rank. Dont know any martial art that develops the equilibrium and shifting of weight that good as Sumo. Judo is also very good at it but Sumo for me is nr.1 in that regard and training regime is as tough as it gets. Congrats.

I won't say you're totally inaccurate; the vast majority of palm strikes are pushes for sure. However...athletes desperate to win, despite being unskilled or of less than ideal body composition, will resort to "KO" victories. On this account you're unabashedly wrong.

Rikishi like Kotoyuki imo proved long ago without a doubt how deadly the tsukidashi kimarite in Sumo can be if one specialises in it. Daeisho is annother one but mostly uses it to force opponents out but Kotoyuki ko`d quite some opponents.

 

[KnightTemplar]

I definitely didn't say I was top ranked. Even amongst the cloth clad nudists that are sumo wreslters, I could barely squeak out 3rd. In Texas. In a county in which Sumo doesn't matter. I am a has-been at best.



I'll admit I braced myself for many personal jabs. For example, that I was (at best) 3rd in Sumo. Meaning my best year, I lost twice. Or that I was successful in a sport that the vast majority of Texan's don't even know exists. Or, worse, that I wore a diaper, underwear, or a g-string.

But a thong? A THONG? There are limits to what a man can endure, and you sir are pressing against it.



I won't say you're totally inaccurate; the vast majority of palm strikes are pushes for sure. However...athletes desperate to win, despite being unskilled or of less than ideal body composition, will resort to "KO" victories. On this account you're unabashedly wrong.





This is confusing. I'll do this right now. There's no fear. Are you extremely brittle or something?



It could be. It could be you are the strongest...well, not a has-been, because you've done nothing. Maybe you're the strongest never-was?


What is done to shins is irrelevant to palms.



No, I won't look into it. Either provide your sources or fuck off.



I was trying to give you a dignified out, because I don't believe in bullying people. Somehow you have made me reconsider this position.


You don't train. Where do you train? What gym? Hell, what state? I have ample vacation time now, and would love to learn how "real" palm strikes are thrown. Maybe I'll bump up to number two in sumo.

That video is fucking awesome. While I have zero desire to try Sumo even at the lowest level, I have a great deal of respect for the pros. Sumo Wrestlers are immensely strong and very tough. I've seen videos of the training they go through in Japan, and it's brutal.

Was that the Dump Truck himself in the final bout?