Could an untrained much heavier guy beat a trained lighter guy?

[DivineComedy]

Eh I don't know what your skill level is(not trying to be a dick) but Jose Aldo or Anthony Pettis would do just fine.

But also, Aldo and Pettis walk around much heavier than they do when they weigh in.

 

[Murlik]

But also, Aldo and Pettis walk around much heavier than they do when they weigh in.

We could go down a weight class and I'd still feel the same.

 

[JeetKunDoGuy]

So many factors, but I would say no, generally speaking. Smaller guys are more nimble to begin with and have faster hands and reflexes. If the big guy is really strong and can get his hands on you-, you might have a problem, but chances are skill will beat size. I keep thinking of my jkd instructors. They are chinese, probably 130 lbs, but they are like little pittbulls I wouldn't want to mess with even though I out weigh then by 60 lbs

 

[Q mystic]

Just in the interest of fairness guys.. Ive seen a 145lb 5-0 MMA-amateur get destroyed in striking only sparring by a football player that had been training for 1 month. After the MMA dude hit him with one clean shot, the football player upped his intensity too and basically 1-2'ed him till he didnt want anymore.

For what its worth, a small trained guy has a better chance in pure boxing than he does in MMA or muay thai.

absolutely DaGenius. Statistically, I have seen more provincial level judoka, wrestlers and boxers get beat in fights vs just tuff fighters their own size. Granted, this was mostly under 20, before the sport fellas knew much about fighting.

 

[panamaican]

Could he? Sure. Is a given? Of course not.

But it's going to boil down to variables. First, how trained is the little guy vs. how untrained is the big guy. If the little guy is a pro and untrained guy has never been in a fight is obviously very different that if the little guy is average and the big guy has been in physical fights before.

Second, athleticism. Is the big guy a big athlete or big and out of shape?

If we're talking a little pro vs. a big couch potato...I'm taking the little guy. If we're talking a little weekend warrior vs. a big, athlete I'm taking the big.

 

[SummerStriker]

How about little pro vs. big weekend warrior?

Honestly, there is one dude I train with who's like 150 pounds and he kicks so god damned hard. It is unbelievable. He's gets his whole body into kicks he's just screwing around with. Big people are usually reserved with their technique, afraid to get out of position. Small guys, sometimes they don't care. The unreserved small guy can really hit hard.

 

[Paradigm]

How about little pro vs. big weekend warrior?

Honestly, there is one dude I train with who's like 150 pounds and he kicks so god damned hard. It is unbelievable. He's gets his whole body into kicks he's just screwing around with. Big people are usually reserved with their technique, afraid to get out of position. Small guys, sometimes they don't care. The unreserved small guy can really hit hard.

little pro

 

[DaGenius]

How about little pro vs. big weekend warrior?

Honestly, there is one dude I train with who's like 150 pounds and he kicks so god damned hard. It is unbelievable. He's gets his whole body into kicks he's just screwing around with. Big people are usually reserved with their technique, afraid to get out of position. Small guys, sometimes they don't care. The unreserved small guy can really hit hard.

Pro is a clear term. By "weekend warrior" do you mean just some big dude who is into fitness and runs 10ks and obstacle courses and such or do you mean some big dude who trains martial arts but has no sport fighting aspirations?

 

[PivotPunch]

In a sanctioned MMA bout it's VERY unlikely if the trained fighter is any good. In a street fight a lot more could happen but in a real MMA bout it's really unlikely especially against a WW who are pretty big themselves. And even with LWs or FWs I would always bet on the trained fighter

 

[Paradigm]

Pro is a clear term. By "weekend warrior" do you mean just some big dude who is into fitness and runs 10ks and obstacle courses and such or do you mean some big dude who trains martial arts but has no sport fighting aspirations?

it really also depends on the level of athleticism in the big guy. he could be some black belt in TKD and still somewhat uncoordinated, just due to his genetics...or he could be a coordinated, in shape dude from some other contact sport. that football player example you gave was perfect.

 

[SAAMAG]

I'll put it this way:

At the gold's gym I go to, part of my pre-lift warm ups are usually hitting the heavy bag progressing from light to heavy, or running, or skipping, or shadowboxing. Since I've been doing that, I've acquired some friends. One guy is a relatively new pro level boxer, another is an ammy boxer who is going pro this year. Another guy seems to be more of an MMA hobbyist (ex golden gloves) who has aspirations of going amateur and then pro, followed by another fella who says he's not sure if he wants to just workout or be a fighter.

Of all these guys, the professional and the ammy/pro boxer are both ridiculously fast. People often times watch fights on TV and think they might be able to hang, but I'm telling you right now, these guys are lightning fast, and powerful punchers regardless of their weight classes or records. You don't realize it till you see them in person. Here's a clip of Eddie sparring from earlier in the year:



They're both lighter than me by at least 20-40lbs. I used to think I was fast when I'm switched on, but compared to the lighter ammy/pro guy (@ 140lbs approx) I'm just an old dog. I would venture to say that in a hands only situation he'd light me the fuck up. This might be me underestimating myself (which I have a habit of doing) but based on my decades of experience I think I'm able to call things pretty well. Granted, they both have certain habits I don't agree with technique wise--but they're young and they're hungry. Sometimes being young and hungry is all that it takes. Having good technique to boot makes it even harder to beat them even when you do outweigh physically and/or experience wise.

So long story short--being bigger, having a good solid muscular build, outweighing the other guy by a lot, it has advantages, but everything has an opportunity cost. Is it better to be bigger at the expense of cardio and speed? What if the smaller guy because of his technique can hit nearly as hard as the bigger guy with lesser technique? There's just a lot of variables where it can go either way depending on the the many factors involved. I've been the smaller guy and the bigger guy in fighting. Being the smaller guy I was always faster and more agile. Didn't win every one of those. Being the bigger guy I've won all those altercations and matches...probably because I retained most of my speed and had added power to manhandle the smaller guys. But weight doesn't really have any effect on what happens to you when you get clocked right on the chin. There's always that.

 

[romanicko]

Majority of times no, in the ring,street,bar,just name it!! on a number of occasions i have personally witnessed a skinny guy(a friend boxer) ktfo a much,much larger male, especially cocky idowhatthefuckiwant bouncers at clubs. But i guess in a fight anything goes, so its as debatable as mma vs boxing

 

[nomilkforsanta]

depends on many factors:

Is the bigger guy athletic? what sports does he play?
Has he been in street fights?
How much of a difference in weight?
Is the smaller guy strong or just technical and scrawny?
Are we talking a fight or muaythai/boxing/bjj/wrestling as singular events?

I am sure we could figure out more than 100 of these possible factors.

 

[Jpistol]

Fedor Emalianenko 6 ft 225 lbs (W-Armbar)
vs.
Hong Man Choi 7'2 350+ lbs

Royce Gracie 6'1 180lbs (W-Shoulderlock)
vs.
Akebono 6'8 486 lbs

Manny Paquiao 5'6 148 lbs (W-Decision)
vs
Antonio Margarito 5'11 165 lbs
*Manny couldve stopped him IMO, he just let Margarito finish the fight

Im thinking what if, Buakaw 5'8 153lbs starts dropping leg kicks on an amateur 6'3 200lbs guy who isnt as skilled, gifted, experienced as he is? i figure it wont go too well for the amateur.

This is a very interesting topic for me since im 5'6 150 lbs and most guys at my gym are taller and heavier

 

[pseudo genki]

I know this is probably a typical alpha thing to think

At this point, I'm not sure if a serious answer is actually going to matter, but here goes anyway:

In general, I've come to believe toughness > experience > size > technique, but a greater disparity lower down can overcome a lesser disparity higher up.
If two people are trying to hurt each other and one of them can endure punishment without breaking mentally or physically, that person is probably going to come out ahead.
If someone has great technique in the gym or on the stage, but hasn't had experience with what adrenaline does to fine motor control or sensory perception, they're probably going to lose to someone who does.
If two people of at all similar skill square off, the bigger guy with more weight and more reach is probably going to win unless he's noticeably slower or has a glass jaw.

Taking a fight to the ground is one of the worst things an untrained big dude can do. Size obviously matters in both grappling and striking: MMA, boxing, MT, wrestling, and BJJ all have weight classes, but the smaller guys are more likely to win 'absolute' divisions in grappling than striking. Back when MMA had open-weight fights, they were won by the bigger person and/or by the better grappler.
Starting a fight out by giving up one's reach and height advantages is more sporting than smart.

 

[Marbig]

Statistically speaking, of course its possible.

However, it is also highly improbable.

I think one of the factors which haven't been mentioned (or haven't been mentioned as much) in this thread is the composure which comes from experience. Getting hit in the face (or nearly in the face) for months on end makes you used to intensity of sparring lol. However, newer blokes don't have these experiences and you could see it in their reactions. Normally, when the punch connects, they tend to freeze and (because of poor defense) their head jolts back. In fact, the more they get punched in the face, the more they forget little details like "keep your elbows tucked in" (for boxing anyways), "don't drop your hands when you punch" and "don't breath through your mouth" etc. This is because it isn't instinct for them yet and so they end up reverting back to doing what they knew before other than what they know would be best for them - i.e. throwing haymakers, covering up in a stand up fetal position and plodding around the ring. This of course makes it a field day for us and the round actually becomes progressively easier as time goes on (especially if its the third round and each round is five minutes- they don't have the cardio lol).

Hence, this is why I think "untrained" people only have a "puncher's chance" against the trained. If they can get to us early and slip a barrage of strong punches somehow through our guards, then they could win. However, this is very unlikely.

P.S. By "trained", I was thinking of those who were competing on the amateur circuit or at least could count their training in terms of 'years' rather than 'months'.

 

[Hemmmmmo]

Bob Sapp vs Ernesto Hoost is a good example

 

[nomilkforsanta]

Bob Sapp vs Ernesto Hoost is a good example

Bob was a beast before Cro-Cop caved his face in.

 

[aries]

Just in the interest of fairness guys.. Ive seen a 145lb 5-0 MMA-amateur get destroyed in striking only sparring by a football player that had been training for 1 month. After the MMA dude hit him with one clean shot, the football player upped his intensity too and basically 1-2'ed him till he didnt want anymore.

For what its worth, a small trained guy has a better chance in pure boxing than he does in MMA or muay thai.

I agree that it's going to be better for the trained small guy in pure boxing.
And not to take anything away from your example but the example I gave had a much bigger skill gap by the sounds of it. The pro had 8 wins but over 40 amateur fights and quite a few at ABA championship levels. I really couldn't see a 1 month rookie coming into the gym and even managing to touch him much less catch him clean.

 

[panamaican]

How about little pro vs. big weekend warrior?

Honestly, there is one dude I train with who's like 150 pounds and he kicks so god damned hard. It is unbelievable. He's gets his whole body into kicks he's just screwing around with. Big people are usually reserved with their technique, afraid to get out of position. Small guys, sometimes they don't care. The unreserved small guy can really hit hard.

Probably the little pro.

But it depends on the size difference. I see people mentioning 40-50 lbs, which isn't enough to overcome the skill difference, imho. That's barely 2 mma weightclasses. Do I think a LW pro MMA fighter could beat a LHW guy who trains recreationally, street or cage? Every single time.

Could a 125lb pro beat a 225lb'er? That's harder to say. Thats going to require a much larger difference in technical skill. I'd take the UFC Flyweight champ over most non-pro's. But I wouldn't take a 125lb guy who just competes in local events over a dedicated 225lb'er who's athletic and trains reguarly, even if it's not at a professional level. Too much size, not enough skill advantage.

To add to the above:

A LW is about 75% of the weight on a LHW. He doesn't need to be that much better to close the weight gap. He's giving up a quarter of the weight (or you could say the other fighter is 33% heavier) so as long as the LW is 33% better skill wise, he should be ok (no math was actually done in this thread - for illustration purposes only). A 125'er is about 54% of the weight on a 225'er. He's got to be much better to close the weight gap - approximately 2x as good a fighter as the heavier man.