Dern, Ortega..and all BJJ players in general.

[StonedLemur]

Rani Yahya got pretty good at wrestling

He definitely did sir.

 

[Deceasedxo]

I don't respect you in any way, why the fuck would I call that kid?

I don't know why would you call that kid?

 

[mudrubble]

It does seem like a waste to have elite BJJ and no way to utilize it.

This has long been the grappling weakness of BJJ guys in MMA and very few learn the wrestling to plug that hole. I imagine the reason is that it's real hard work.

 

[michi972]

This is what always frustrated me about Werdum, his submission game was brilliant but his takedowns were dreadful.. he was comically bad at wrestling. The only way he could ever get it to the floor was if someone took him down.. or if he knocked someone down with a punch or kick, or if they knocked him down with a punch or kick

I never understood it, I don't know why he didn't train takedowns more, he doesn't even need to do double legs or single legs.. but he could do some inside trips, or just try to trip in general, but he just never seemed to try it. Which seemed ridiculous to me because he was so good on the floor, and also UFC HW lacks many grapplers and he could tap a lot of them.

Some bjj fighters go wrestle heavy, some striking heavy. I wouldn't say Werdum's wrestling was that nad, he took down Volkov. Anyway his striking combined with bjj made him one of the greatest HWs of all time. Maia couldn't bring his striking as far as he could his wrestling, while he wasn't a bad wrestler before working more on his wrestling (he was a successful middleweight). Ortega developer good striking, not good enough to beat guys like Max, Volk, Ilia, Yair on the feet. I think he just isn't as talented on wrestling as he is with his bjj or striking. Most of the guys coming from bjj don't develop in all 3 areas. I think Charles and Jacare were most well rounded

 

[michi972]

Wrestlers stop wrestling in MMA because they fall in love with standup and knocking fools out.

BJJ cats want yo be on the ground so wrestling is their best option to get it there sir.

Unless they develop good striking. Then they can get more careless in striking.

 

[mudrubble]

That's exactly what I thought too.
He laid it out, and they should've recognized the importance of it earlier.

I think they know but they..... get tired. And go back to what's less tiring, lol. Not a great plan but it's more comfortable. Reminds me of a story that I see played out in different ways almost every day of my life:

Nasrudin is looking through his grass intently as a neighbour passes by and asks him "What's wrong, Nasrudin - lost something?" Nasrudin replies , "Yes, I lost my wedding ring". So the neighbour starts approaching in order to help, "Ah you lost it out here in the yard doing yard work, eh?" to which Nasrudin replies "No, I lost it in the dining room last night." The neighbour stops, puzzled, and asks him "Then why are we looking outside here for it?" to which Nasrudin casually replies "The light is much better out here".

Ppl do this all day long, in so many ways.

 

[moreorless87]

Some bjj fighters go wrestle heavy, some striking heavy. I wouldn't say Werdum's wrestling was that nad, he took down Volkov. Anyway his striking combined with bjj made him one of the greatest HWs of all time. Maia couldn't bring his striking as far as he could his wrestling, while he wasn't a bad wrestler before working more on his wrestling (he was a successful middleweight). Ortega developer good striking, not good enough to beat guys like Max, Volk, Ilia, Yair on the feet. I think he just isn't as talented on wrestling as he is with his bjj or striking. Most of the guys coming from bjj don't develop in all 3 areas. I think Charles and Jacare were most well rounded

I think you need to remember as well that the Werdum we saw in the UFC was already in his mid 30's, he'd made his striking more dangerous but he'd lost quite a bit of agility which obviously limited the kind of takedowns he tended to go for earlier in his career(leg shots rather than clinch work).

His latter run he basically shifted to using the threat of his grappling to aid his standup, that nobody wanted to take him down was a significant advantage and meant he could commit to his strikes a lot more, especially throwing knees plus of course there was the threat of his own takedowns.

 

[dirtypablo]

The fact that ortega and Dern and kron didnt learn from him amazes me. Maia found the blueprint for them, but he just found it too late in his development. All of those guys should have ran with his blue print and started a heavy focus on wrestling from the very first day they decided to commit to mma.

Found it late in his development? What are you talking about? He always had a solid takedown game - he tossed Sonnen like a ragdoll in 2009.

 

[dirtypablo]

I grew up wrestling, and you don't have to be Yoel Romero to get better at wrestling.
It takes dedication, but not every takedown is brute force in wrestling.

You don't have to be a beast to get better at wrestling, but you're ignoring the reality of the fact that when you're going up against someone who IS a beast, if your level of wrestling is even remotely similar, they're going to outwrestle you.

These people ARE training wrestling. They ARE training takedowns. But they're not going to get better at them than people who have been focusing on that for their whole lives.

 

[dirtypablo]

I don't want them to retire, I want them to recognize the hole and fill it sir.

What you're failing to recognize is how insanely difficult it is to fill that hole. Even if they drop all their other skill based training and focus on only takedowns, they're still most likely not going to become great wrestlers.

 

[StonedLemur]

What you're failing to recognize is how insanely difficult it is to fill that hole. Even if they drop all their other skill based training and focus on only takedowns, they're still most likely not going to become great wrestlers.

Well Ortega just proved its possible sir.

 

[StonedLemur]

You don't have to be a beast to get better at wrestling, but you're ignoring the reality of the fact that when you're going up against someone who IS a beast, if your level of wrestling is even remotely similar, they're going to outwrestle you.

These people ARE training wrestling. They ARE training takedowns. But they're not going to get better at them than people who have been focusing on that for their whole lives.

They can start training with high school kids first.

 

[StonedLemur]

Unless they develop good striking. Then they can get more careless in striking.

Derns stand up is amateurish at best, and most of them don't develop great stand up.

 

[Blanqa Blanqua]

*This post is in general terms and not related to the fighters in the title
*This post is really just for @StonedLemur



BJJ folk often display arrogance. You ever notice that? I have.

That arrogance and hubris is probably what stops them doing what you have been suggesting.

Though they would probably be too arrogant to see that.

 

[marvinparsons]

The law of MMA:
- nobody great at wrestling will become great at BJJ
- nobody great at BJJ will become great at wrestling

*unless your base is sambo/being dagestani/you are BJ Penn

 

[StonedLemur]

The law of MMA:
- nobody great at wrestling will become great at BJJ
- nobody great at BJJ will become great at wrestling

*unless your base is sambo/being dagestani/you are BJ Penn

Im not asking for greatness sir, just competence.

 

[marvinparsons]

Derns stand up is amateurish at best, and most of them don't develop great stand up.

Dern is annoying as unlike most BJJ specialists (Ryan Hall, Kron, Royce, Maia) she has natural power/athleticism and could become a good striker, but she's barely improved at all. She could be like a female Jacare, but she's on a Ronda-esque progression in terms of her striking.

 

[StonedLemur]

Dern is annoying as unlike most BJJ specialists (Ryan Hall, Kron, Royce, Maia) she has natural power/athleticism and could become a good striker, but she's barely improved at all. She could be like a female Jacare, but she's on a Ronda-esque progression in terms of her striking.

Maia actually evolved by getting better at wrestling tbf.
Dern as a striker is god awful.

 

[fortheo]

Found it late in his development? What are you talking about? He always had a solid takedown game - he tossed Sonnen like a ragdoll in 2009.

If you followed Maia's career, you'd know he was always a late bloomer. He didn't start BJJ until he was 19, He didn't make his UFC debut until he was 29 years old. He then went through a K1 phase, which he later regretted when he realized that his bread and butter is grappling and that striking was taking him away from that -- and that is when he doubled down on wrestling training and started seeking out olympic wrestling training partners and started splitting his camps between his gym in brazil and Edge wrestling in new jersey with a bunch of collegiate wrestlers.

Imagine if he double downed on the wrestling when he was 20, not 30.

 

[TheGreenMachine]

for some of them it could be a boost to their game but for most of them it is way too late. they are specialists in brazilian jiu jitsu their entirce carreers., they are ground fighters. not all round grapplers.

they are not all round grapplers like khabib/islam/tsarukyan/jones etce. those guys can grapple wherever (or never get put on their back). be it standing, scrambling, on the ground from bottom or top. how may times have we seen bjj fighters drop to their ass in hope that the fighter would follow them? or pull guard because they cant even get a hold of the opponent? that looks so incredibly weak to me. that shows that their game is severely lacking



the myth that bjj-fighters are the best grapplers is just that......a myth.

I'm an upper belt in BJJ and do judo and wrestling, and I've argued forever now against the culture of "sport BJJ" not being good for MMA or the growth of BJJ in general. I agree too that it is a myth that BJJ fighters are the best grapplers on the planet. The thing with all those Daegastani/Eastern European grapplers is that they are basically training all aspects of grappling you need for MMA from an early age. They're getting the lower and upper body takedowns from wrestling, upper body takedowns/throws/trips against the cage from judo, balance and upright striking posture from judo (judo gripping is very similar to striking), and submissions/leglocks/basic ground grappling from Sambo (or Judo). Most of them aren't training traditional BJJ, yet they're becoming champions in MMA.

Meanwhile, you have BJJ guys wasting years splitting time between GI BJJ (completely impractical for MMA) and No-GI BJJ, and learning a ton of moves that will never be applicable to MMA. In MMA grappling, punches and the lack of a gi change so much of BJJ that it basically doesn't resemble traditional sport BJJ. Example: In a BJJ comp, if you stand back up and disengage from inside someone's guard, you may be penalized. In MMA, its fine. Most guard passes in BJJ are about as basic as it gets, nothing super fancy. Maybe just stepping the leg over or MAYBE a low knee cut. Leglocks and entanglements are super low percentage because they put you in a bad position, and most of the fancy guards like x guard, de la riva, or single leg x are gone because its hard to keep a grip on your opponent or they just disengage or punch you from top.

You're much more likely to see a D1 wrestler develop some hands or a striker develop some takedown defense to become champion in the UFC, then you are a BJJ person who either has to develop elite hands or elite takedowns because they have a ton more gaps to fill in their game. It takes YEARs to get good at wrestling. Wrestling and Judo take much longer to pick up the basics than BJJ. I suspect that has something to do with it too. Its not just takedowns with wrestling, but its the distance, hand fighting, clinching, scrambles, and chaining together a bunch of moves. Some of that could happen in BJJ, but it loses a lot of it because of the ruleset disincentivizing it. There's also no sense of urgency in BJJ either compared to Wrestling or Judo. Its hard to break out of that mindset when you have time to work from a bad position. In wrestling or judo, if you get put in a bad position or thrown/taken down, you usually lose the match instantly.

Have you ever been to a BJJ tournament?

It’s not that people are not teaching or drilling takedowns, it’s that more that sitting guard is a better option than shooting wild for takedowns. You see that more and more when higher belts compete.

It would need a rule change, like sitting would be minus points or takedowns valued much more than two points. Modern sport BJJ is a totally different sport and only a few do it because they want to be good at MMA or even think that they would ever have an mma fight.

It goes both ways, most wrestlers have very poor submission technique, they mainly force and crank, use so much energy and are clumsy in transitions or lack transitions from one sub to an another. One could think they don’t train submissions at all, just watch UFC and try to do what others did.

^^^This. Any guard pull should be negative points in BJJ. The other issue is over reliance of leglocks in sport BJJ, especially at the upper belt ranks. Its hard to just pass another upper belt's guard, so you have to be unorthodox. A lot of guys will just pull guard to get on a leg and go for leglocks which a lot of people still haven't trained to defend. Its the path to a quicker win, but its also something you'd never do in MMA because it puts you in a bad position.