Did Kayla Harrison need to break Dandois' arm?

[Zankou]

Did not look particularly egregious to me. It went real fast but I didn’t see any attempt to explosively rip it.

Judoka often hit arms harder than bjj guys will, rather than easing into it. I’m not sure why that is, except maybe that judo is faster paced in general.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I agree with the gist of what you're saying here, most of it. But I don't understand the grappling bit at the end. Partially going to agree with that too but:

1. There is rampant PED use in the higher echelons of sub-grappling and BJJ. And on that front I agree there is probably similarities with Oly wrestling variants and Oly Judo despite much more rigorous testing vs virtually none.

2. Whether it's Judo or BJJ I think it's undeniable that when the sport is in the gi it requires less athleticism and utilizes more "technique" in a sense.

3. On the actual topic of this thread just to throw my 2 cents in, I don't think Kayla Harrison was in the wrong here at all. She did not crank or hold this submission, not sure what the issue is. Did Uriah Hall NEED to break Weidman's leg? He just performed correct technique and it happened to break, obviously not a 1:1 analogy here but I don't think Harrison did anything unsportsmanlike or egregious.

We're on the same page re. PEDs. My comment about grappling is grappling wasn't just directed at you but at the style vs. style comments in general itt. Just because Ronda and Kayla came from Judo doesn't mean their games are identical. There's probably more individual variation within the major grappling styles than there is in how the fundamentals of those styles translate to MMA, factoring in strikes. In BJJ the objective is to take down the other guy (or skip that and pull guard) and submit him. In wrestling, it's to take him down and pin him. And in Judo it's to do either of the above. A high level practitioner in any of these is still going to be pretty damn good at the other two even without cross-training.

Gi vs. no gi, depends as it always does, on ones definition of "athleticism." In gi, a strong but less technical guy can slow down a faster, more technical guy with gi grips. In no gi, an outmatched guy can survive longer vs. a slightly better opponent because it's harder to lock him down and choke the shit out of him like you could in a gi.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Did not look particularly egregious to me. It went real fast but I didn’t see any attempt to explosively rip it.

You seem to be with the majority here. Maybe I'm just getting soft in my old age.

Judoka often hit arms harder than bjj guys will, rather than easing into it. I’m not sure why that is, except maybe that judo is faster paced in general.

Can I ask what level Judoka you've observed this in? Seems to be a common sentiment itt. Wholly agree that competition Judoka (like wrestlers) tend to roll harder than BJJ guys in general but I haven't observed them cranking joint subs past the point of injury any more frequently than in BJJ. Full strength cross-faces, shoulder pressure, exploding into positions, yanking the shit out of collar chokes all fair game but most Judoka I trained with including myself drew the line at immediately cranking armbars or kimuras. That's just being a dick. I mean every grappling gym has "that guy" who cranks the shit out of stuff just because he can but that isn't typical of either style IME.

 

[PinkFlammingo]

It looked close, although I hate it snapped

 

[nefti]

I love how some act like mma submissions cant be fast and strong but you can knee/punch/kick as fast and as hard as you wish.
Did people complain that MVP kneed cyborg to hard in the skull rather than his celebration afterwards?

 

[seatea]

Judoka often hit arms harder than bjj guys will, rather than easing into it. I’m not sure why that is, except maybe that judo is faster paced in general.

Because judo referees will call matte during a submission if you can't get the tap quickly enough.

 

[Foppa21]

It's a fight. It was super necessary

 

[yetanother]

Her opponent had plenty of time to tap. In competition you can tap before the sub is fully extended.

 

[rmongler]

2. Whether it's Judo or BJJ I think it's undeniable that when the sport is in the gi it requires less athleticism and utilizes more "technique" in a sense.

Very deniable. A match like Rafael Mendes vs Rodolfo Vieira at the 2011 abu dabi world pro could have never happened in the gi, where with grips Vieira could just completely immobilize Rafa and smesh.

 

[RemyR]

Very deniable. A match like Rafael Mendes vs Rodolfo Vieira at the 2011 abu dabi world pro could have never happened in the gi, where with grips Vieira could just completely immobilize Rafa and smesh.

i know I’m in the minority here but IMO grappling in the gi is more tiring (at least for me) due to the constant isometric grip battles going on. I feel I’m constantly fighting for better grips and pulling.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Very deniable. A match like Rafael Mendes vs Rodolfo Vieira at the 2011 abu dabi world pro could have never happened in the gi, where with grips Vieira could just completely immobilize Rafa and smesh.

That's quite literally the driving mechanism by which gi is less reliant on athleticism than no-gi.

You can neutralize an opponent with grips and gi is definitely more prone to stalling and point fighting clearly. And I know this question will be controversial seeing all the Judo guys on this forum and in this thread, but what requires more athleticism - Judo or Wrestling?

The answer is obviously wrestling and also no-gi. You can definitely make the argument that gi is more technical as there's way more literal techniques and then grips on top of it, but it's definitely less "athletic". When you restrict movement with a giant coat with lapels and pajama pants that you arbitrarily have to wear...well lol. And I don't hate gi or anything, but this is so obvious that no gi is more athletically based.

Could Nicky Rod have came into the gi-competitive world as a "blue belt" and won the IBJJFs at black belt essentially? Obviously not. There's basically 0% chance he would have beat Aly or Abreu in a gi. Part of that is technical and learning grip stuff, but a lot of that is also athleticism and obviously wrestling ADCC rules.

 

[rmongler]

That's quite literally the driving mechanism by which gi is less reliant on athleticism than no-gi.

You can neutralize an opponent with grips and gi is definitely more prone to stalling and point fighting clearly. And I know this question will be controversial seeing all the Judo guys on this forum and in this thread, but what requires more athleticism - Judo or Wrestling?

The answer is obviously wrestling and also no-gi. You can definitely make the argument that gi is more technical as there's way more literal techniques and then grips on top of it, but it's definitely less "athletic". When you restrict movement with a giant coat with lapels and pajama pants that you arbitrarily have to wear...well lol. And I don't hate gi or anything, but this is so obvious that no gi is more athletically based.

Could Nicky Rod have came into the gi-competitive world as a "blue belt" and won the IBJJFs at black belt essentially? Obviously not. There's basically 0% chance he would have beat Aly or Abreu in a gi. Part of that is technical and learning grip stuff, but a lot of that is also athleticism and obviously wrestling ADCC rules.

Well then we're just playing definition games with 'athleticism'.

The connotation that is desired to be implied is certainly quite clear: 'unlike those unintelligent brutes, my very large brain allows me to grasp the enlightened secrets for overcoming enemies through pure magic'.

Then they circularly define 'technical' and 'non-technical' as tautologically equivalent with superficial features of 'gi' and 'no-gi' formats, irrespective of whether the actual facts of the matter fit the connotation(s) as they wish to imply.

And so, for the sake of producing rationalizations to validate a strange form of parochial 'ultra-bjj-ism', they end up sketching a world where a unholy big body using convenient handholds that allow him to leverage his attributes over a more helio-like (in spirit) small weak and frail counterpart neutralizing any of their techniques in ways that would be impossible without such is now 'more technical'.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Well then you're just playing definition games with 'athleticism'.

The connotation that is desired to be implied is certainly quite clear: 'unlike those unintelligent brutes, my very large brain allows me to grasp the enlightened secrets for overcoming enemies through pure magic'.

And then they circularly define 'technical' and 'non-technical' as tautologically equivalent with superficial features of 'gi' and 'no-gi' formats, irrespective of whether the actual facts of the matter fit the connotation(s) as they wish to imply.

And so, for the sake of producing rationalizations to validate a strange form of parochial 'ultra-gi-ism', they end up sketching a world where a big body using convenient handholds that allow him to leverage his attributes over a smaller competitor and neutralize any of his techniques in ways that would be impossible without such is now 'more technical'.

Sorry but what did you even say here? It seems like you just meandered around, googled big words, and tried to shit on my argument without ever credibly presenting an opposing point.

I never said I was smarter than anyone else here, but I definitely think I'm dramatically less biased. This place is filled with tons of Judo guys, guess what that only train in the gi. Maybe older guys who prefer gi BJJ. Maybe guys who trained TMA also, in the gi.

There's no point of even arguing, if you seriously think gi is more athletic or as athletic as no-gi then you're just wrong. Tell me the next time someone like Nicky Rod beats world class black belts in a top competitive setting in gi BJJ or Judo. I'll wait. It's just not going to happen even with an equivalent d3 wrestling background.

And no I'm not playing "definition games" with the word athleticism. It seems that everyone wants to make their own definition of it on this site, but being strong at gripping is not "athletic" in the general sense of the word. Again the simplest concept here = the gi restricts movement + adds more technical elements

 

[rmongler]

but being strong at gripping is not "athletic" in the general sense of the word.

Most folks tend to define athleticism primarily as explosiveness, yes. In this sense, things like size, weight, or isometric strength are not 'athleticism'. But a problem comes when you equivocate 'has less athleticism' with 'is more technical'. When, for instance, the ability to get a convenient handhold on any part of the opponents body allows you to impose size, weight, and strength advantages over an opponent to much greater degrees than would be possible without them. Hence situations are created where something is not 'athletic', but also not 'technical' either. Do you see the issue now?

It's this selective application of criteria for 'technicality' that is taken issue with, highlighting attributes more relevant for success sans kimono, while attributes more relevant for success with jammies are left as rhetorical blindspots.

 

[yetanother]

That's quite literally the driving mechanism by which gi is less reliant on athleticism than no-gi.

You can neutralize an opponent with grips and gi is definitely more prone to stalling and point fighting clearly. And I know this question will be controversial seeing all the Judo guys on this forum and in this thread, but what requires more athleticism - Judo or Wrestling?

The answer is obviously wrestling and also no-gi. You can definitely make the argument that gi is more technical as there's way more literal techniques and then grips on top of it, but it's definitely less "athletic". When you restrict movement with a giant coat with lapels and pajama pants that you arbitrarily have to wear...well lol. And I don't hate gi or anything, but this is so obvious that no gi is more athletically based.

Could Nicky Rod have came into the gi-competitive world as a "blue belt" and won the IBJJFs at black belt essentially? Obviously not. There's basically 0% chance he would have beat Aly or Abreu in a gi. Part of that is technical and learning grip stuff, but a lot of that is also athleticism and obviously wrestling ADCC rules.

Could Lachlan have trashed Aly, Kaynan and Gaudio in the gi?

 

[No Skill Gap]

Could Lachlan have trashed Aly, Kaynan and Gaudio in the gi?

Lachlan Giles heel hooked all 3 opponents you mentioned. You can't heel hook in the gi, in IBJJF at least. That would be the most succinct answer.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Most folks tend to define athleticism primarily as explosiveness, yes. In this sense, things like size, weight, or isometric strength are not 'athleticism'. But a problem comes when you equivocate 'has less athleticism' with 'is more technical'. When, for instance, the ability to get a convenient handhold on any part of the opponents body allows you to impose size, weight, and strength advantages over an opponent to much greater degrees than would be possible without them. Hence situations are created where something is not 'athletic', but also not 'technical' either. Do you see the issue now?

It's this selective application of criteria for 'technicality' that is taken issue with, highlighting attributes more relevant for success sans kimono, while attributes more relevant for success with jammies are left as rhetorical blindspots.

Look I've already argued about this extensively in the S/C forum on this site lol...I don't care to argue it anymore.

For me and what I think is close to the "correct" objective truth to define athleticism is this:

Strength is a part of it. Endurance/Cardio is a part of it. But both are on the polar end of the spectrum of "athleticism". So it's hard to really define someone as athletic for being good to very good in that extreme end.

For example - Would most people consider Eddie Hall athletic? Or a Kenyan marathon runner with world class times but looks like a concentration camp survivor? Like sure, on some level top powerlifters and top endurance "athletes" are athletic. But then we can just break it down into super specific, niche categories and call anyone athletic.

So then is a ping pong player athletic because they have amazing hand eye coordination and reflexes? Is a guy who can close the captain of crush 4 or grip a lapel like no other but is terrible at running, jumping, moving, everyone else...some athletic specimen? I just disagree. It becomes abusrd and childisih at a point.

Yes strength matters, yes cardio matters. Both matter a lot in fighting and grappling. But having good cardio or being strong doesn't make you "athletic" per se. They are just both parts of the puzzle and most would consider them minor parts. Another reason is that they are highly trainable where as other more classical athletic things (classical for a reason...) are NOT very trainable at all i.e. sprinting, jumping, change of direction/agility, getting int power output even.

So no I'm not going to acknowledge every little niche physical attribute that a human can perform as being inherently "athletic". In a literal sense maybe you can, but it's just absurdity at that point. Playing guitar really fast has to be athletic then...and if we're having a serious conversation about athleticism that would be a retarded point to make.

 

[Volador]

The other guy is dismissing the skill, I agree there. But I do think she's clearly a bit "sus" in terms of juicy. If I had to bet yeah I know where I'm betting, and that's fine because most (male at least) pro athletes are on PEDs. (not making an accusation here in case a mod doesn't like that...)

And I definitely respect Harrison's olympic Judo but I don't think gi Judo matters a ton. For WMMA? We've seen it with Rousey so definitely it matters, but at some point if Harrison ran into a Nunes/Holm even GDR with some TDD or a 115 skilled woman...

Then I do see the other guy's point. Because on some level, Rousey did have undeniable technique and Judo/grappling talent, but it was also a lot of strength and athleticism and toughness/tenacity. The gap between the latter was really how Rousey dominated. Then she ran into Holm a strong, athletic (suspiciously jacked) girl she couldn't just take down or out muscle, and then Nunes.

I haven't been die hard following Harrison or the PFL but I'm pretty damn sure she's fought no one "good". What if she had to fight the equivalent of a Zhang/Rose/JJ or Valentina or Nunes/Holm or Cyborg? So again, don't agree with the other guy but there's something true about his point even if he made it in a demeaning way.

I think her Olympic background gives her some credibility. At least she had to pass some rigorous testing and never popped. Obviously it isn't a guarantee, but at least US athletes are legit tested and don't have state sanctioned PED programs like in Russia and such.

At the same time, it's clear that PFL doesn't test very stringently, everyone looks jacked as fuck. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of fighters were on shit on PFL, so it's kind of a wash, it seems like it's a level playing field with her opponents in that regard. I do think most of her opponents are ridiculously mismatched. The size difference between her and Dandois was comical and that entire 155lbs weight class is a joke.

With that said, I think she's a real threat to Nunes/Cyborg. She would demolish a 115lbs fighter. She's a legit big, skilled and freaky athletic woman. She's at least Cyborg big, I don't think she can even make 135lbs. She would eat Rose, Zhang or JJ for breakfast. She'd have 20-30lbs on them at least, and walk them down with much better grappling. Shevchenko is the only debatable one. How she would do against Cyborg, Nunes, Holm or GDR, I'm not sure, but she kills all the other WMMA fighters below 135 imo.

As for the Judo comment, don't forget that the head and arm throw is completely OP in WMMA. It's probably one of the best skillsets you can have.

 

[rmongler]

Lachlan Giles heel hooked all 3 opponents you mentioned. You can't heel hook in the gi, in IBJJF at least. That would be the most succinct answer.

Most competitions are done with weight classes, so this can obscure perception of some attributes that would be more relevant in some formats, while highlighting differences in other attributes that may be more relevant in other formats.

In absolute divisions, you can sometimes see championship level competitors in the lower half of weight classes do well in formats without clothing. They don't win gold usually, but it's not unusual to see them take out two or three contenders at higher weight before losing in the semi-finals or so. In absolute gi formats though, you will almost never see this happen; because with more convenient hand-holds, differences in strength and mass have a much huger impact (no pun intended).

 

[tdluxon]

Seemed a little unnecessary to me. Definitely not as flagrant as someone like Pallares but she clearly had it locked in and she tapped basically immediately. It’s not clear that she did it on “purpose” but a little bit unsportsmanlike.