Discourse on Boxing vs MMA vs other sports

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

We do not disagree about U Fight Cheap's horrendous pay. It holds back MMA in general as you can't attract talent to a sport where even the best are paid like shit. The UFC cannibalizes its existing market rather than trying to expand it.

But I think a combat sports monopsonies could theoretically be good things, as long as fighters have legal protections with fair contracts, a strong union, and a guaranteed revenue share in line with other sporting monopsonies.

Decentralization is not good for the consumer as it just allows guys to consistently duck the fights fans want to see.

As it stands, obviously the boxing model is the lesser of two evils, because if I am going to watch people give each other CTE, I want them to at least earn good money doing it.

The sport of boxing is structured in such a way that it's scalable and resilient. Each promotion being independent of the others. So, if one of them were to go under tomorrow it won't affect the sport as much. Fans can just seamlessly switch over to the other fight promotions' cards likely without even noticing. That's the beauty of decentralization. No single fight promotion holds the majority of the sport's talent nor do they depend on each other. They're isolated.

As you noted though, unfortunately it creates network and promotional hurdles (politics) as a side effect. It wasn't always this bad though. Back in the day it was much less of a problem. The best all fought each other, mostly, and did so in a timely manner. It certainly didn't take 5 years to make a high profile fight that fans wanted.

 

[that Indian]

Little brother wants to be the big brother. Big brother fears being replaced by the little brother. That's how the Remus-Romulus dynamic works.

It makes perfect sense that this would lead to delusional thinking on behalf of the big brother, as they must delude themselves to maintain their self-identity of superiority.

Anyway, it's actually a retarded way to look at this nonsense issue anyway, only really good for rustling some jimmies. I was just following your lead.

I agree. The psychoanalytic framework is seductive but it is anecdotal, post hoc and very imprecise in transposing intrapsychic conflicts into a sociological model.

MMA did seem to be marketed as a boxing-on-steroids version of fighting, so perhaps that is where that competitive animus stems from. In MMA fights, you also see how one-dimensional strikers get absolutely mauled and dominated so that also perpetuates a discourse that is absent in boxing.

I do wonder whether the top upcoming talent will increasingly be siphoned towards MMA (a so-called 'brawn drain' if you will). I think it will largely depend on the ability of boxing to continue guaranteeing large paydays to its stars and whether MMA does indeed de-centralize so the athletes enjoy greater profit-shares and protections.

I don't think the complexity of MMA is holding it back in any way. Football, cricket, baseball are ridiculously complex sports that have enormous following. Whether the average person understands or can execute the maneuvers has little to do with its intuitive appeal. In fact, the complexity of MMA tends to make competition more dynamic and therefore more watchable for the uneducated public. Boxing is less dimensional, and therefore more predictable and controlled. Many casuals are therefore disappointed to see that boxing simply doesn't involve two guys moving towards each other and punching. Feinting, distance, traps, hand fighting, foot placement are subtleties that few boxing viewers properly apprehend.

 

[Fisticuffa]

The sport of boxing is structured in such a way that it's scalable and resilient. Each promotion being independent of the others. So, if one of them were to go under tomorrow it won't affect the sport as much. Fans can just seamlessly switch over to the other fight promotions' cards likely without even noticing. That's the beauty of decentralization. No single fight promotion holds the majority of the sport's talent nor do they depend on each other. They're isolated.

As you noted though, unfortunately it creates network and promotional hurdles (politics) as a side effect. It wasn't always this bad though. Back in the day it was much less of a problem. The best all fought each other, mostly, and did so in a timely manner. It certainly didn't take 5 years to make a high profile fight that fans wanted.

Proven by the big decline in JMMA when Pride collapsed

If MMA's WWE like model was so good for the sport then why didn't UFC fill the vacuum left by Pride in Japan, what about another Japanese promoter?

Boxing outlasted communism, mob control under Frankie Carbo, the IBC's attempt at becoming the UFC of Boxing in the 1950's, and the catch wrestling (in many ways the precursor to modern MMA) craze from late 1800's to WW1 where as catch wrestling morphed into pro wrestling

Boxing also caters to global talent pool by having lower weight classes where many good East Asian and Latino fighters like Inoue, Ioka, Chocolatito, Estrada, Rungvisai etc compete while Dana threatens to close the 125 lb division of UFC. Why is that if UFC is bigger than Boxing worldwide as UFC fans pretend

 

[that Indian]

Proven by the big decline in JMMA when Pride collapsed

If MMA's WWE like model was so good for the sport then why didn't UFC fill the vacuum left by Pride in Japan, what about another Japanese promoter?

Boxing outlasted communism, mob control under Frankie Carbo, the IBC's attempt at becoming the UFC of Boxing in the 1950's, and the catch wrestling (in many ways the precursor to modern MMA) craze from late 1800's to WW1 where as catch wrestling morphed into pro wrestling

Boxing also caters to global talent pool by having lower weight classes where many good East Asian and Latino fighters like Inoue, Ioka, Chocolatito, Estrada, Rungvisai etc compete while Dana threatens to close the 125 lb division of UFC. Why is that if UFC is bigger than Boxing worldwide as UFC fans pretend

Boxing is my favorite sport and I will always take a good boxing match over a MMA fight. But in comparing UFC to boxing, you are comparing a single league with a sport. That is like comparing NHL with soccer (vs. MLS).

And it is difficult to establish monopsony power in other national jurisdictions where commissions, rulesets, markets, government and legalities all present obstacles--though the UFC does try.

 

[Fisticuffa]

Boxing is my favorite sport and I will always take a good boxing match over a MMA fight. But in comparing UFC to boxing, you are comparing a single league with a sport. That is like comparing NHL with soccer (vs. MLS).

And it is difficult to establish monopsony power in other national jurisdictions where commissions, rulesets, markets, government and legalities all present obstacles--though the UFC does try.

That is because UFC pretty much is MMA to casuals and I did mention other J promoters. JMMA is nowhere near what it once was even with Rizin which shows the pitfalls of promoting the brand (Pride FC in this case) over the fighters. If the brand collapses, the sport will also go downhill which isn't the case with Boxing. Teiken or Ohashi promotions collapsing doesn't mean a collapse of Japanese boxing

Other MMA promoters including Rizin and One don't go to 122 lbs and below for men

 

[Fluffernutter]

Why does there seem to be a disproportionate amount of boxing vs MMA sentiment? There always seems to be some discourse about how boxers can't handle leg kicks or take downs. Whether it be on social media, youtube, forums, or even in real life discussions.
Show a boxer with impressive skills and there's always some idiot saying something along the lines of "He wouldn't stop a double leg."

There doesn't seem to be the same amount rivalry between boxing vs muay thai or MMA vs muay thai. Or even grappling arts vs other grappling arts. You'll get the occasional comment from a boxer criticizing a MT fighter's punching technique or people claiming BJJ doesn't work on the street, but it not at the same volume or vitriol as in boxing vs MMA. People don't watch Saenchai and talk about how they could just take him down and submit him. People aren't claiming Muay Thai is an inferior sport because Mighty Mouse beat Rodtang in MMA. People don't watch olympic wrestling and say, "Let's see them do that when the opponent can use punches and submissions!"

I know the obvious answer is money. MMA fighters aren't going to make the same amount of money calling out Muay Thai guys or Judokas or Wrestlers or whatever.

I watch a lot of boxing content along with some muay thai and judo content, and I notice a clear difference. The discourse of judo vs bjj or other grappling arts exist, but it's much more technical and academic.

The boxing vs. MMA "fight" is astoturfed.

Bob Arum was afraid that boxing fans would but UFC PPVs back in 2007 and complained to ESPN/FoxSports. Dana White and Joe Rogan pushed back.

John McCain (a huge boxing fan) chimed in. As did Harry Reid (Senator from Nevada). Then, it became politically mainstream to "choose a side".

Millionaires want to protect their moneycows. Sports fans, on the other hand, can watch both.

There is no real rivalry between the two sports between fans. The rivalry is between those that make money off of the fans.

 

[BluntTrauma21]

It's just little brother syndrome, or psychoanalytically, what's known as the Remus Complex.

I call it the "Marcia! Marcia! Marcia!" Complex. Shout out to the Brady Bunch.

 

[Mujeriego]

But the reality is that MMA has consistently beaten boxing in annual PPVs sold (not every year) in North America since it became popular.

Thats because the UFC lives and dies on PPV. Boxing doesnt.
How many boxing ppvs a year are there and how many UFC?
Did any UFC event outsell Tank-Garcia?

In pure viewership boxing wins that. They are both on ESPN and boxing does better numbers than MMA on there.
Lets also add that DAZN alone, will have more events in one year, than the UFC will have.
Now go add in all the other promotions and channels, and theres really no way to say the UFC is bigger when boxing will have 5x the events going on.

Live gate numbers? Boxing in a landslide. No point of even going there.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Thats because the UFC lives and dies on PPV. Boxing doesnt.
How many boxing ppvs a year are there and how many UFC?
Did any UFC event outsell Tank-Garcia?

In pure viewership boxing wins that. They are both on ESPN and boxing does better numbers than MMA on there.
Lets also add that DAZN alone, will have more events in one year, than the UFC will have.
Now go add in all the other promotions and channels, and theres really no way to say the UFC is bigger when boxing will have 5x the events going on.

Live gate numbers? Boxing in a landslide. No point of even going there.

Yeah there's no comparison when it comes to attendance. The largest attendance record for an MMA event is still held by PRIDE Shockwave back in 2002. It's claimed that 91k people were there but that's disputed by some sources who put it at 71k. The largest UFC event attendance record is only 57k. Boxing's consistently had over 100k people pack stadiums with as many as 135k people in attendance.

 

[Dr Fong]

Thats because the UFC lives and dies on PPV. Boxing doesnt.
How many boxing ppvs a year are there and how many UFC?
Did any UFC event outsell Tank-Garcia?

In pure viewership boxing wins that. They are both on ESPN and boxing does better numbers than MMA on there.
Lets also add that DAZN alone, will have more events in one year, than the UFC will have.
Now go add in all the other promotions and channels, and theres really no way to say the UFC is bigger when boxing will have 5x the events going on.

Live gate numbers? Boxing in a landslide. No point of even going there.

There's no point in going to live gate numbers because these are a fraction of the UFC's earnings. PPV, or guaranteed revenue based on set PPV buys, is where the real money is.

Has any UFC event outsold Tank-Garcia? If you are talking all time, then yes. Conor-Khabib did double that amount even. If you are talking this year, then almost certainly not. But it's irrelevant, I was discussing annual totals.

And I was really referring to the pre-ESPN deal UFC anyway, as now the UFC operates under a different model, where it gets paid as if it generates 500k PPVs every PPV event. This type of sweetheart deal, which takes all the risk off the UFC and gives it huge guaranteed profits, is something boxing promoters would currently kill for.

Streaming has complicated the PPV argument in both directionss, and we no longer know the UFC's numbers. So take my point as referring to a few years ago when we could make more direct comparisons.

In general it's wrong to look at non-PPV events as if they would add to total PPV buys, because this ignores the financial risk of PPVs where poor sales can result in losses. A comparison of annual PPV sales is a comparison of how successful each sport was in converting potential PPV customers into actual PPV customers, and all the extra profits this brings.

I never contested that boxing has a bigger overall fanbase in the US. Clearly it does. What I was pointing out was that the UFC makes much more money than the major boxing promoters, which makes the whole 'little brother' thing just a little bit problematic. That is all.

I don't see it as the type of controversial argument that would get people's panties all twisted up about.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

There's no point in going to live gate numbers because these are a fraction of the UFC's earnings. PPV, or guaranteed revenue based on set PPV buys, is where the real money is.

Has any UFC event outsold Tank-Garcia? If you are talking all time, then yes. Conor-Khabib did double that amount even. If you are talking this year, then almost certainly not. But it's irrelevant, I was discussing annual totals.

And I was really referring to the pre-ESPN deal UFC anyway, as now the UFC operates under a different model, where it gets paid as if it generates 500k PPVs every PPV event. This type of sweetheart deal, which takes all the risk off the UFC and gives it huge guaranteed profits, is something boxing promoters would currently kill for.

Streaming has complicated the PPV argument in both directionss, and we no longer know the UFC's numbers. So take my point as referring to a few years ago when we could make more direct comparisons.

In general it's wrong to look at non-PPV events as if they would add to total PPV buys, because this ignores the financial risk of PPVs where poor sales can result in losses. A comparison of annual PPV sales is a comparison of how successful each sport was in converting potential PPV customers into actual PPV customers, and all the extra profits this brings.

I never contested that boxing has a bigger overall fanbase in the US. Clearly it does. What I was pointing out was that the UFC makes much more money than the major boxing promoters, which makes the whole 'little brother' thing just a little bit problematic. That is all.

I don't see it as the type of controversial argument that would get people's panties all twisted up about.

Getting back to the UFC fighter pay discussion, out of all major North American sports leagues (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL), they pay their athletes the least. In fact, a whole lot less. That's sad. Especially when you consider that these athletes/fighters are risking their lives and serious injury out there.

I haven't looked at UFC PPV numbers in a while but their whole approach is different. The UFC will stack their cards with talent while in boxing they usually don't. Boxing PPVs are typically centered around a single fight or two (the co-main and/or main event). We do get occasional double or triple headers but it's more about particular fights than it is filling out the rest of the card with quality match-ups. In boxing they put just about everything on PPV even when it clearly doesn't belong on the platform.

 

[Dr Fong]

Getting back to the UFC fighter pay discussion, out of all major North American sports leagues (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL), they pay their athletes the least. In fact, a whole lot less. That's sad. Especially when you consider that these athletes/fighters are risking their lives and serious injury out there.

I haven't looked at UFC PPV numbers in a while but their whole approach is different. The UFC will stack their cards with talent while in boxing they usually don't. Boxing PPVs are typically centered around a single fight or two (the co-main and/or main event). We do get occasional double or triple headers but it's more about particular fights than it is filling out the rest of the card with quality match-ups. In boxing they put just about everything on PPV even when it clearly doesn't belong on the platform.

UFC card stacking was a reflection of the fanbase being largely stolen from pro-wrestling, where PPV cards have always been 'stacked'. When Hulk Hogan wrestled Andre the Giant, which did all the selling on its own, Macho Man and Roddy Piper were on the same card anyway. This is what UFC fans initially expected too.

Because UFC has made itself the star rather than the fighters, like the WWE did before them, it makes sense that the 'event' has depth, because you are buying the brand more than the individual star power.

It's also a tacit admission that a single MMA fight can be really quick and unsatisfying (like Jones vs Gane ending in a guillotine) or suck antelope shit and be met with a chorus of boos. Yes, there can be shitty and disappointing boxing matches but they tend not to generate near the same hostility.

And all this makes sense when you can pay your fighters slave wages and force them to do all kinds of shit. Doesn't make much sense in boxing to go through complex negotiations with different parties to get them on the same card, when the main event is doing the heavy lifting anyway. Unless you are a Saudi prince.

The UFC has moved more towards the boxing model though. When Conor fought Cowboy, who was a complete bum by that point, it wasn't for a title and the undercard was complete trash. They knew any extra names wouldn't add any real net buys.

It would be nice if boxing could stack more cards to compensate for underwhelming mains at least. When AJ and Wilder were announced in separate fights, my jimmies were extremely rustled. But now that they started to really stack the card, I will happily watch two fights that individually piss me off because in context it is a great night of fights.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

UFC card stacking was a reflection of the fanbase being largely stolen from pro-wrestling, where PPV cards have always been 'stacked'. When Hulk Hogan wrestled Andre the Giant, which did all the selling on its own, Macho Man and Roddy Piper were on the same card anyway. This is what UFC fans initially expected too.

Because UFC has made itself the star rather than the fighters, like the WWE did before them, it makes sense that the 'event' has depth, because you are buying the brand more than the individual star power.

It's also a tacit admission that a single MMA fight can be really quick and unsatisfying (like Jones vs Gane ending in a guillotine) or suck antelope shit and be met with a chorus of boos. Yes, there can be shitty and disappointing boxing matches but they tend not to generate near the same hostility.

And all this makes sense when you can pay your fighters slave wages and force them to do all kinds of shit. Doesn't make much sense in boxing to go through complex negotiations with different parties to get them on the same card, when the main event is doing the heavy lifting anyway. Unless you are a Saudi prince.

The UFC has moved more towards the boxing model though. When Conor fought Cowboy, who was a complete bum by that point, it wasn't for a title and the undercard was complete trash. They knew any extra names wouldn't add any real net buys.

It would be nice if boxing could stack more cards to compensate for underwhelming mains at least. When AJ and Wilder were announced in separate fights, my jimmies were extremely rustled. But now that they started to really stack the card, I will happily watch two fights that individually piss me off because in context it is a great night of fights.

My point is that when comparing PPV buys between the UFC and boxing that should be kept in mind. Along with their respective price points, of course. People are buying boxing PPVs more so for the headliners than they are the whole card/event. That's one thing that I like about MMA. Even back in the PRIDE days their cards were stacked. Yeah, the Saudis can afford to fill cards with talent from top to bottom, but we're just now starting to see this. Hopefully we'll see them stack cards and put on these big events fairly frequently. It's more value for the consumer.

 

[Dr Fong]

My point is that when comparing PPV buys between the UFC and boxing that should be kept in mind. Along with their respective price points, of course. People are buying boxing PPVs more so for the headliners than they are the whole card/event. That's one thing that I like about MMA. Even back in the PRIDE days their cards were stacked. Yeah, the Saudis can afford to fill cards with talent from top to bottom, but we're just now starting to see this. Hopefully we'll see them stack cards and put on these big events fairly frequently. It's more value for the consumer.

But most excess UFC PPV buys above the baseline are still generated by the main event alone though, as studies have shown. Stacking cards with good mid-card talent doesnt act as a massive multiplier, it just satisfies a part of the core audience.

The UFC has a certain captive audience who will would buy literally ANY card that is shat out in front of them.

Then there's another pool of relative hardcores who will buy a decently stacked card but aren't such marks that they will buy literally any card. This forms a baseline of say about 150,000 (captives) to 300,00. This 150,000 non-captive hardcore audience is the only reason stacking exists.

The rest is generated by star power bringing in casuals who don't give a shit about overall card quality because they only know the star(s) in the main event anyway.

When the UFC stacks a card under a big draw it's just about appeasing those non-captive hardcores, not bringing in more casuals. When you are paying slave wages, a marginal gain of 150,000 PPV buys is worth it. Still turns a profit and keeps your core audience content.

When Conor fights a shot bum like Cowboy on top of shit card, 1.2 of the 1.3 million PPV buys they sell is all on him.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

But most excess UFC PPV buys above the baseline are still generated by the main event alone though, as studies have shown. Stacking cards with good mid-card talent doesnt act as a massive multiplier, it just satisfies a part of the core audience.

The UFC has a certain captive audience who will would buy literally ANY card that is shat out in front of them.

Then there's another pool of relative hardcores who will buy a decently stacked card but aren't such marks that they will buy literally any card. This forms a baseline of say about 150,000 (captives) to 300,00. This 150,000 non-captive hardcore audience is the only reason stacking exists.

The rest is generated by star power bringing in casuals who don't give a shit about overall card quality because they only know the star(s) in the main event anyway.

When the UFC stacks a card under a big draw it's just about appeasing those non-captive hardcores, not bringing in more casuals. When you are paying slave wages, a marginal gain of 150,000 PPV buys is worth it. Still turns a profit and keeps your core audience content.

When Conor fights a shot bum like Cowboy on top of shit card, 1.2 of the 1.3 million PPV buys they sell is all on him.

Sure, I'd expect the main event to generate the majority of the revenue. Especially if the rest of the card is really weak. In boxing you might only have one big fight on the entire card. So, when PPV buys come in it's safe to assume that 99% of the revenue was generated by the headliner/main event slot. Boxing fans will pay $80 for a card with that one high profile fight. The rest of the card may as well not even exist. There are posters in this forum that won't even watch the undercard. They'll skip it altogether and just tune in for the main event.

I know people that only casually watch MMA but they plan to buy UFC 300 next Spring. That's because they understand that the promotion will go all out and throw everything they have at it. The Saudis, because they have the money, are starting to do this now which is nice. Their Day of Reckoning promos are top notch as was the promo for Fury vs Ngannou.

 

[mozfonky]

the biggest gripe I have about this kind of bickering is it's mostly one way. Most boxing people that I've known aren't thinking about mma. Of course there are the stories of showdowns that some young hotheads have gotten into and someone ends up with a broken elbow but that's rare. They are just totally different people and one group I like a lot more than the other. Boxing people are easier to talk and relate to for me, the mma people are a lot like martial artists, you have to walk on eggshells not to say the wrong thing or hurt their feelings, they are a lot more clannish and immature, like frat kids even when they are in their 30's and 40's.

I haven't seen a ton of the boxers talking shit, usually, it's journalists going way back. I recall seeing a nasty vehemence from the boxing writers and it was delusionally biased saying that the UFC guys were quitters not understanding that it's a totally different style of fighting, you don't quit you can end up with every limb in your body fucked up. I still recall the first mention of the ufc's in a boxing mag where they derided the gracies and the rest. Saying that they'd seen fighters fight through hands swollen twice their normal size, just completely not understanding that when boxers suffer injuries they are incidental unless they are from a foul. Guys break their elbows in boxing but it isn't on purpose, and great fighters have had to quit over a dislocated body part. Tommy Hearns, Marcel Cerdan etc.., etc..., The "boxers don't quit" has never been true although it's considered the worst sin of the sport, it's never, never been true. People tore Duran apart for the No Mas fight and I forget which sportswriters claimed that they couldn't recall fighters quitting but they were wrong, it's always happened in the sport. I just saw a docu on Jose Torres where it said Willie Pastrano quit in their fight. The style of fighting just doesnt put them in the same situations of having a limb ripped apart so it's not even a fair comparison.

 

[mozfonky]

Also, I imagine both sports as well as football and some of the more destructive sports are having a real hard time bringing in fresh blood these days. I sometimes wonder how my old mma gym is doing, they never did have majority fighters, lots of kids and upper class adults who came to basically came to slum. 20 years on and I'm sure these demographics are even that much more pussified, I wouldn't know, they disgusted me then and I don't go around. The boxing, judging by the "cream" of the pros is just totally in severe decline, that's my take and I won't even entertain arguements, especially after Fury's last fight.

 

[Mujeriego]

Also, I imagine both sports as well as football and some of the more destructive sports are having a real hard time bringing in fresh blood these days. I sometimes wonder how my old mma gym is doing, they never did have majority fighters, lots of kids and upper class adults who came to basically came to slum. 20 years on and I'm sure these demographics are even that much more pussified, I wouldn't know, they disgusted me then and I don't go around. The boxing, judging by the "cream" of the pros is just totally in severe decline, that's my take and I won't even entertain arguements, especially after Fury's last fight.

You shouldve known that if you're looking at Fury to represent "boxing" today, you're looking at the wrong guy.

Id focus on the mid to lower weight classes and see that the skill level is still there.

 

[mozfonky]

You shouldve known that if you're looking at Fury to represent "boxing" today, you're looking at the wrong guy.

Id focus on the mid to lower weight classes and see that the skill level is still there.

nope, I'm not impressed by any of them, Fury is just an example.

That isn't my main point though, I'm just sort of baffled by how anyone will be able to get good fighters in their gyms, either mma or boxing. I mean, I would think lawsuits would drive a lot of places out of business. Injuries are routine but with mma, even more common with the lack of experience and the apathy of the gym owners. I would think, lawsuits might make the gymowners totally squelch a lot of stuff because of the change in how people are. And there were always people who would sue but as soft as people are today? They'd be suing over a sprain.

 

[Mujeriego]

nope, I'm not impressed by any of them, Fury is just an example.

Bam Rodriguez, Naoya Inoue, Juan Francisco Estrada, Roman Chocolatito, Canelo, Beterbiev?
I dont think you are watching those guys besides a min highlight here and there.
Great fighters.