Do You Consider Health An Obligation?

[PlumPunch]

In the milieu about body shaming and feminism that seems to be all over the web, I've seen lot's of discussions on various forums about living a healthy lifestyle. A lot of debate was sparked last year when Maria Kang posted a picture of herself with her three young kids and the title "What' Your Excuse." Basically a bunch of chubby women got a hard case of hurt feelings.

{I know pictures would be nice, but I'm half a tard with computers. Google is your friend.}

Anyway, a lot of people basically argue that it's none of your damn business if somebody chooses to wreck their health by eating shit and being sedentary.

I think the ACA in the US and similar programs in other nations means an individual not taking care of his health isn't just his business, but that's besides the point.

Is being out of shape simply a matter of taste, or is it something that others have an obligation to pursue?

 

[ironwolf]

being out of shape is their right....

....It's also my right to make fun of their fatasses and snap pictures of them to send to my friends "shaming" them.

 

[Tosa]

I don't think there's a strong argument for health being an obligation, beyond, say, being healthy and fit enough to fulfill other responsibilities. For example, emergency services, soldiers, parents, etc.

For that matter, how would you decide if someone was fulfilling that obligation? And how would it be enforced, or encouraged? And if there isn't a good answer to those questions, isn't the entire thing moot?

 

[redaxe]

If medical care is a right, then fitness should become an obligation.

 

[Ayin]

I don't think it's a good idea to try and start down the 'shared healthcare costs = you are required to be healthy', as many people (likely on this website) have hobbies which put them at a higher risk of injury than the general public (Boxing or kickboxing training, for example, or grappling, lifting, ect.)

 

[Tosa]

Except does a healthy lifestyle really end up costing the state less money?

A longer lived person will be paid out more in pensions, and other old age benefits. And since they live longer, they may make greater use of the healthcare system, with things like hip replacements, and managing conditions the become more common with age, like high blood pressure, hearing loss, arthritis, etc.

Many of them will still ultimately die from the same conditions that kill less healthy individuals - cancer, and cardiovascular disease - except at a later stage in life. Or, perhaps due to their health, they survive and recover from those conditions, only to continue to cost the state money in pension, health services, etc.

 

[LZD]

Except does a healthy lifestyle really end up costing the state less money?

A longer lived person will be paid out more in pensions, and other old age benefits. And since they live longer, they may make greater use of the healthcare system, with things like hip replacements, and managing conditions the become more common with age, like high blood pressure, hearing loss, arthritis, etc.

Many of them will still ultimately die from the same conditions that kill less healthy individuals - cancer, and cardiovascular disease - except at a later stage in life. Or, perhaps due to their health, they survive and recover from those conditions, only to continue to cost the state money in pension, health services, etc.

Exactly.

 

[miaou]

"No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training

 

[PlumPunch]

I don't think it's a good idea to try and start down the 'shared healthcare costs = you are required to be healthy', as many people (likely on this website) have hobbies which put them at a higher risk of injury than the general public (Boxing or kickboxing training, for example, or grappling, lifting, ect.)

But if those people made the arguments you mentioned, they'd be hypocrites, they wouldn't be wrong. There's a difference.

 

[PlumPunch]

The whole bit about the healthcare implications of an unhealthy lifestyle on society are interesting, but it's not the whole point.

I mean, taking a certain amount of self responsibility seems to me to be a positive duty people have, whether to themselves, their family, society, whoever. You should brush your teeth, you should know how to read and do basic math, and you should at least pay some small measure attention to diet and exercise. Agree or disagree?

 

[RafailNadull]

If you think there is a moral obligation, make a case for it that doesn't just involve intuition pumping ("people should do these things. agree?)

Intuition pumping merely gets at whether someone would like people to do these things. Which is very different from there being an obligation to do these things. (For instance, I'd like people to give me a ton of money, but they don't have an obligation to do so).

 

[INTERL0PER]

It shouldn't be an obligation.

However, I am constantly astounded by the physical condition most people are in. Some people seem to take it as a given that you're going to be out of shape.

I'm not suggesting everyone should achieve marathon runner levels of fitness, but goddamn people, take care of your body at least a little bit. Most adults I know could barely run for a minute without completely gassing.

I honestly think so many people have become so accustomed to seeing obesity (or being obese themselve) that it's become completely normalized. I really think that people just don't realise the stress they're putting on their bodies. They also don't seem to realise just how bad junk/fast food is for them.

People say they just don't give a fuck about being fat, but I often think they're only thinking about the aesthetic consequences of being fat and they aren't really considering/aware of the health consequences.

I can't imagine that you could be aware of how much that fat is hurting you and still truly not care... but people are mind blowingly stupid, so I guess it's not that hard to believe.

 

[ironwolf]

"No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training

 

[PlumPunch]

If you think there is a moral obligation, make a case for it that doesn't just involve intuition pumping ("people should do these things. agree?)

Intuition pumping merely gets at whether someone would like people to do these things. Which is very different from there being an obligation to do these things. (For instance, I'd like people to give me a ton of money, but they don't have an obligation to do so).

Moral intuition can't be dismissed out of hand. It's a well developed mode of ethical thought.

Moral intuition isn't the same as saying I'd like folks to do XYZ.

I have an intuition that somebody can't simultaneously weigh more than 200lbs and less than 150lbs. I can't give you a 100% foolproof argument why; it's axiomatic. If you disagreed with me, I wouldn't think that was just your opinion, I'd think you're wrong.

I have a moral intuition people shouldn't torture babies for fun. Same logic applies.

I have a moral intuition people shouldn't neglect their health. I grant this is more tenuous than baby torture, but it's still valid.

 

[PlumPunch]

It shouldn't be an obligation.

Shouldn't be an obligation as in Congress shouldn't create a bureaucracy that makes sure you can pass a PT test and salads for lunch? I agree.

shouldn't be an obligation as in people owe it to themselves to have some fitness? I disagree.

 

[SummerStriker]

Physical fitness is all relative.

Being fat as hell and walking an hour a day will provide the benefits of bone density and balance while warding off heart attacks and diabetes. Without being able to bench the bar or run around the block, you can be fat as hell and stay out of the hospital + manage your day to day life, so long as you do some walking.

If you have an office job and hire a cleaner, you don't need to be athletic to be in shape for your life style.

Many people get a sense of satisfaction out of admiring a fit body, even their own or one of the same sex. It is natural to try to attach some sort of greater meaning to it, but their isn't any. You just do what you like to do and hopefully you feel good doing it.

 

[ironwolf]

It shouldn't be an obligation.

However, I am constantly astounded by the physical condition most people are in. Some people seem to take it as a given that you're going to be out of shape.

I'm not suggesting everyone should achieve marathon runner levels of fitness, but goddamn people, take care of your body at least a little bit. Most adults I know could barely run for a minute without completely gassing.

I honestly think so many people have become so accustomed to seeing obesity (or being obese themselve) that it's become completely normalized. I really think that people just don't realise the stress they're putting on their bodies. They also don't seem to realise just how bad junk/fast food is for them.

People say they just don't give a fuck about being fat, but I often think they're only thinking about the aesthetic consequences of being fat and they aren't really considering/aware of the health consequences.

I can't imagine that you could be aware of how much that fat is hurting you and still truly not care... but people are mind blowingly stupid, so I guess it's not that hard to believe.

I turned 35 last sunday and did a really long run. That evening I went to dinner with some friends and one of them turned 35 last week. During dinner he drank 6 coca colas to my one beer, he also ate 2 deserts to my...none. The guy was also complaiing about how bad his feet hurt because he had to walk to the restaraunt (~20-30 minutes)..I ran 35 miles. He is also about 240lbs @5'9, not athletic, has asthma, diabetes, bad knees, bad back, etc, etc.....dude is 35.

I can't understand why you would want to live like that or accept it like he has. And you can't blame it on American diets/lifestyles as I'm American and he is Dutch...and this happened in China.

Just sort of sad, if you are like this at 35 then whats 55 going to look like? People are just too lazy or scared to give up a few minutes or hours of "comfort" each week in order to make themselves 1000x more healthy and feel 1000x better. The real shit of it is this "comfort" they wont sacrifice isn't comfort....its aching feet, sore knees, pants that are too tight, inhalers, pills, headaches and a general inability to do the fun things in life or go see beautiful places or take on certain challenges. These people are stuck watching from the sidelines and its fucking sad.

I understand that some people have real health problems, injuries, car accidents, horrible tragedies, crippling depression and I can sympathise with that 100%, What I can't understand and will not feel sorry for are people who have no reason other than laziness, being spoiled etc, etc.

 

[SummerStriker]

I can't imagine that you could be aware of how much that fat is hurting you and still truly not care... but people are mind blowingly stupid, so I guess it's not that hard to believe.

Walking an hour a day and cutting out most junk food is all the physical fitness most people need. The fitness industry is filled full of people who get a sense of satisfaction out of looking at bodies that are sexually arousing, or watching people perform acts of labor they can pretend are equivalent to manual labor. The work they put people through is simply pointless, needless suffering. There is a disconnect between what the industry is selling and what people need.

If you walk about an hour a day, you won't get sick for the most part, even if you are fat. You don't really need to lift weights. Walking will work your bone density. You don't need HITT to ward off diabetes. Walking will do that as well. You don't need special balance exercises. Walking an hour a day outside will cover it.

The impression that people are out of shape for their environment or health because they are fat isn't true or fair. They don't need to be able to run. They don't need to be able to lift. They might not care about being fat. They might be doing enough in their lives not to get sick and you can't tell that by looking at them.

 

[SummerStriker]

I turned 35 last sunday and did a really long run. That evening I went to dinner with some friends and one of them turned 35 last week. During dinner he drank 6 coca colas to my one beer, he also ate 2 deserts to my...none. The guy was also complaiing about how bad his feet hurt because he had to walk to the restaraunt (~20-30 minutes)..I ran 35 miles. He is also about 240lbs @5'9, not athletic, has asthma, diabetes, bad knees, bad back, etc, etc.....dude is 35.

I can't understand why you would want to live like that or accept it like he has. And you can't blame it on American diets/lifestyles as I'm American and he is Dutch...and this happened in China.

Just sort of sad, if you are like this at 35 then whats 55 going to look like? People are just too lazy or scared to give up a few minutes or hours of "comfort" each week in order to make themselves 1000x more healthy and feel 1000x better. The real shit of it is this "comfort" they wont sacrifice isn't comfort....its aching feet, sore knees, pants that are too tight, inhalers, pills, headaches and a general inability to do the fun things in life or go see beautiful places or take on certain challenges. These people are stuck watching from the sidelines and its fucking sad.

I understand that some people have real health problems, injuries, car accidents, horrible tragedies, crippling depression and I can sympathise with that 100%, What I can't understand and will not feel sorry for are people who have no reason other than laziness, being spoiled etc, etc.

People need to be shown the way but almost no one knows what it is. The diet changes, moderate physical activity, and positive group environments are not found in most gyms. It is easy to say people should do something, but the fact is that to reverse the damage they have done to their body requires stricter living than healthy people who started and stay healthy possess, and that isn't in their nature.

The issue then becomes, "how do you get it in your nature?"

Fear mongering DM2 and HITT isn't it. A lot of things aren't it.

 

[PlumPunch]

Part of what I object to is the notion that insofar as a person can live day to day, their state of health is unimportant.

Regardless of the demands your environment makes on you, you're neglecting an essential part of humanity when you neglect your body. Maybe you can get by being in ludicrously bad shape, but that doesn't make it right.