Opinion Does Christianity really teach that some people will spend eternity in hell?

[franklinstower]

I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying there's no a single out future... Because you create a different future with every action...

You can chose to go to college or not, each action will create andifferent future, if God knew your choice would've been, then the whole concept of fee will is irrelevant. you were born to do stuff, your life is written and no matter what, you can't change that, if you could, then God wouldn't have been able to know how your life was going to end.

Great response but for me IF this is even true I still have to live it and suffer through it and learn from it and grow all through it. Nothing about Gods foreknowledge changes any of that for me.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'm not qualified to judge souls.

So stop talking like you know who's going to be saved or not. In ine part you say only through Jesus you will be saved, but when you a re confronted wth a logical question. That challenges your beliefs, "I'm not qualify to judge souls"...Not qualify my ass, you know it doesn't make sense, so you chose to look away and say, Meh God exists he helped find my toy, bla bla bla

 

[franklinstower]

I am fairly certain you are referencing David Wolfe, Wolfpe? and Christopher Hitchens. Jewish thinking on the old testament is a long way from talmudic rationale. Jews, per capita, are maybe the most secular group on Earth, especially across Europe and the US.

On God's omniscience

Romans 8:38-39New International Version (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Psalms 149:1-3 illuminates this view further, and makes God's omniscience personal to humans

1 O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.

Psalms 139:5 says

“You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.”

Psalms 147:4-5 states

4 He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name. 5 Great is our Lord, and i mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.

Now, on numerous occasions, God purposefully, and directly sends people on missions, like Joseph. Joesph tells his brothers that God put him into slavery by their hand for a specific reason.

God even goes as far as to know the hairs on your head. The Bible does not leave any room for a God that explodes in creativity, and then is not involved in human affairs. According to the Bible, he is all knowing, and all powerful, despite the fact that you cant be all powerful and all knowing at the same time.

EDIT-Maybe it was Kusher?

Hitchens savages his immorality in this video.

It was Wolpe (I really like him) but I dont think it was Hitchins but maybe. I dont think Wolpe is secular. We exchanged emails and he does believe in miracles as that is what I asked about. Kabbalah also states that Gods first attempts at creation were aborted.

Again you are assuming God only operates by way of intelligence but there is also a dimension of pure being and a dimension of pure love within the Trinity. The love part is infinitely creative and the being part abides in pure existence. Who is to say what it is like to be God?

 

[hillelslovak87]

It was Wolpe (I really like him) but I dont think it was Hitchins but maybe. I dont think Wolpe is secular. We exchanged emails and he does believe in miracles as that is what I asked about. Kabbalah also states that Gods first attempts at creation were aborted.

Again you are assuming God only operates by way of intelligence but there is also a dimension of pure being and a dimension of pure love within the Trinity. The love part is infinitely creative and the being part abides in pure existence. Who is to say what it is like to be God?

Wolpe debated Sam Harris, so it was probably their one.

The second paragraph, I dont really know how to approach it, because it honestly makes no sense to me. Are you suggesting that each part of the trinity does not know what the other parts are doing? The Bible is pretty clear, as the passages I provided above, God knows everything about us, our lives, and what happens. He even knows our entire lives before we are even born.

 

[mrbaapt]

jesus christ is fraud.

Agreed.

 

[franklinstower]

Wolpe debated Sam Harris, so it was probably their one.

The second paragraph, I dont really know how to approach it, because it honestly makes no sense to me. Are you suggesting that each part of the trinity does not know what the other parts are doing? The Bible is pretty clear, as the passages I provided above, God knows everything about us, our lives, and what happens. He even knows our entire lives before we are even born.

Not suggesting that at all but lets say for a moment that we were created in Gods image. We might expect to find some similarities between our activity and Gods. We assume as much ALWAYS by assigning intelligence in the way that we use it to God. I am just suggesting that the creator of the universe who creates might be creative and that artists might have something to say about the way in which this being creates, creatively speaking.

The rest is hard to understand because I was speaking as a contemplative and we gain access to these other modes of being though meditation and slowly they are incorporated into our lives. These states are where the understanding of the Trinity comes from just like Saccitananda in Hinduism.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Not suggesting that at all but lets say for a moment that we were created in Gods image. We might expect to find some similarities between our activity and Gods. We assume as much ALWAYS by assigning intelligence in the way that we use it to God. I am just suggesting that the creator of the universe who creates might be creative and that artists might have something to say about the way in which this being creates, creatively speaking.

The rest is hard to understand because I was speaking as a contemplative and we gain access to these other modes of being though meditation and slowly they are incorporated into our lives. These states are where the understanding of the Trinity comes from just like Saccitananda in Hinduism.

When I've brought up the appalling morality of God wanting to be feared and loved at the same time, I am consistently told that God's ways are so different, so above ours, that we cannot judge him, or know him by our own standards. You cant then say you can see similarities between us and God. This is having your cake and eating it too.

The Bible does not really leave room for God not knowing everything, for all time. And the original question remains: Since he knows the future, how could he, or us, hope to change it?

 

[hillelslovak87]

Pfft, a foot race with no black people. sheeeit. And that's a terrible analogy for free will.

 

[franklinstower]

When I've brought up the appalling morality of God wanting to be feared and loved at the same time, I am consistently told that God's ways are so different, so above ours, that we cannot judge him, or know him by our own standards. You cant then say you can see similarities between us and God. This is having your cake and eating it too.

The Bible does not really leave room for God not knowing everything, for all time. And the original question remains: Since he knows the future, how could he, or us, hope to change it?

You did not bring up the fear and love with me or you would have gotten a different answer. The fact is though that IF there is a God then it will confound our thinking at times just as light being both a particle and a wave is mind bending for some of us. I mean IF there were a God it would have to be confounding to us.


Also why the concern with changing it all? You CAN do whatever you want man. Just go and do it. No one is stopping you. I know you already know that and am not being condescending. Why assume God wants to change it at all?


This has been a great talk man. I mean that. It is so nice when people dont get heated and we can just talk. I have loved it. I asked the free will and foreknowledge question to a friend and his responses was this. "God is omnipotent. He is able to create us according to His purpose without creating an obstacle that prevents Him from making us self determined creatures."

 

[dontsnitch]

When I've brought up the appalling morality of God wanting to be feared and loved at the same time, I am consistently told that God's ways are so different, so above ours, that we cannot judge him, or know him by our own standards. You cant then say you can see similarities between us and God. This is having your cake and eating it too.

The Bible does not really leave room for God not knowing everything, for all time. And the original question remains: Since he knows the future, how could he, or us, hope to change it?

Respectfully, the problem with your arguments is not the arguments themselves, the arguments are fine, it's that you're trying to make them something they're not. You're trying to present them as if their conclusions are necessary (certain) and that they prove God's non existence, and that's too big a burden for them to carry.

There are countless counter-arguments that provide several possible alternatives (of which we've seen a few itt), which is to say, there are too many unknowns for the idea of free will to prove God can't exist. All you need is one possible alternative and that alone dismisses the idea that God can't exist as such. Frankly, the answer could be as unassuming as him creating humanity as it is because it was good to do so.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Respectfully, the problem with your arguments is not the arguments themselves, the arguments are fine, it's that you're trying to make them something they're not. You're trying to present them as if their conclusions are necessary (certain) and that they prove God's non existence, and that's too big a burden for them to carry.

There are countless counter-arguments that provide several possible alternatives (of which we've seen a few itt), which is to say, there are too many unknowns for the idea of free will to prove God can't exist. All you need is one possible alternative and that alone dismisses the idea that God can't exist as such. Frankly, the answer could be as unassuming as him creating humanity as it is because it was good to do so.

I was not attempting to disprove God. My contention was with the assertion that one can have free will when one's actions are all already mapped out.

 

[hillelslovak87]

You did not bring up the fear and love with me or you would have gotten a different answer. The fact is though that IF there is a God then it will confound our thinking at times just as light being both a particle and a wave is mind bending for some of us. I mean IF there were a God it would have to be confounding to us.


Also why the concern with changing it all? You CAN do whatever you want man. Just go and do it. No one is stopping you. I know you already know that and am not being condescending. Why assume God wants to change it at all?


This has been a great talk man. I mean that. It is so nice when people dont get heated and we can just talk. I have loved it. I asked the free will and foreknowledge question to a friend and his responses was this. "God is omnipotent. He is able to create us according to His purpose without creating an obstacle that prevents Him from making us self determined creatures."

No problem, man. I enjoyed it too. Too often we get too heated, insult each other, and it ends up being a pissing contest. Big up!

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You did not bring up the fear and love with me or you would have gotten a different answer. The fact is though that IF there is a God then it will confound our thinking at times just as light being both a particle and a wave is mind bending for some of us. I mean IF there were a God it would have to be confounding to us.


Also why the concern with changing it all? You CAN do whatever you want man. Just go and do it. No one is stopping you. I know you already know that and am not being condescending. Why assume God wants to change it at all?


This has been a great talk man. I mean that. It is so nice when people dont get heated and we can just talk. I have loved it. I asked the free will and foreknowledge question to a friend and his responses was this. "God is omnipotent. He is able to create us according to His purpose without creating an obstacle that prevents Him from making us self determined creatures."

You do realize what your friend told you makes zero sense? The answer should be quite simple. It's either him being omniscient, thus knowing the future (which will put down the free will concept, logically of course) him not being omniscient, which will allow human beings to have free will) or he exists outside time and space, and there are multiple universes going on all at once, each one for the many different actions one couldve chosen during his life...and he exists in all of them, but not only that, there's multiple heaves too, one for each univrrse, or some mind blowing shit like this... What he says makes no sense, and if you are truly worry about the subject you shouldn't settle with that crap.

 

[franklinstower]

You do realize what your friend told you makes zero sense? The answer should be quite simple. It's either him being omniscient, thus knowing the future (which will put down the free will concept, logically of course) him not being omniscient, which will allow human beings to have free will) or he exists outside time and space, and there are multiple universes going on all at once, each one for the many different actions one couldve chosen during his life...and he exists in all of them, but not only that, there's multiple heaves too, one for each univrrse, or some mind blowing shit like this... What he says makes no sense, and if you are truly worry about the subject you shouldn't settle with that crap.

I am not certain that what he said is wrong yet. I need time to think about it. Also I am fairly certain that there are many counter arguments from philosophy against the foreknowledge and determinism idea. I have not found them yet is all.

I am on an international Christian forum. Many of the people there are highly educated with degrees in philosophy etc. I've put some feelers out on that forum concerning this topic. The only problem is the thread is somewhat hurried so I don't know that Ill get the number of responses I would like.

As far as being worried about this topic -- I am not at all. I have direct experience with the infinite love of God and am on a path to greater intimacy with that God.

This is just a curiosity.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I am not certain that what he said is wrong yet. I need time to think about it. Also I am fairly certain that there are many counter arguments from philosophy against the foreknowledge and determinism idea. I have not found them yet is all.

I am on an international Christian forum. Many of the people there are highly educated with degrees in philosophy etc. I've put some feelers out on that forum concerning this topic. The only problem is the thread is somewhat hurried so I don't know that Ill get the number of responses I would like.

As far as being worried about this topic -- I am not at all. I have direct experience with the infinite love of God and am on a path to greater intimacy with that God.

This is just a curiosity.

I'm not about to piss on your belief, if you are happy believing in God, or let's be clear the Christian God, fine.

Now, just google, the free will dilema... There are many intent to solve this but at the end, it ends up with determinsi vs some unlogical stuff. But when it comes to faith, there's a shiiiiit ton of unlogical stuff that "scholars" repeat, follow by the "ignorance xxxxxx " (this normally happens when faith is confronted by logic)..

Look,faith is faith, and it's alright, what drives people crazy is when theist try to rationalize faith. Just like many things in Christianity, the free will dilema cannot be solved by the use of logic.

 

[helltoupee]

That was a compliment knucklehead.



No, God does not define the choices you make. He may know the answer, but again it is your choice to make. You choose between an apple or an orange (free will). God knows which one you are going to pick but the choice of the pick is yours not God's. I don't understand why you and others have a problem understanding this concept.



Woo, hold off on Satan for a moment. That is a whole other argument. Yes, God knew about Hitler and what he would do. Hitler had free will and is one of the best examples of the evil that man are capable of doing in this world. Well, it goes back to what I stated earlier. If God is going to intervene, man has no free will. Evil is a consequence of free will.

Now to Satan, that little shit. The fallen angel 'Lucifer' who got jealous of God's power. Why didn't God just kill him? I believe God allowed 'Lucifer' to exist in the form of evil to test man's faith in God. You don't get a free ticket to heaven, you have to earn it. Man has the choice (free will) between doing good and doing evil, the consequence of those choices will decide your life after death. Punishment could also come in this life.

Hitler and Lucifer are evil incarnate. Man must destroy this evil under the eyes of God. The evil is all around us every day of our lives. It is man's choice to partake in it or destroy it. Well, at least that is how I view it.



Well, like I and others mentioned before, the Bible was written by man. Jesus could have written it but he didn't. What does that tell you? I don't put too much faith on the Bible as the 'word' of God. I'm more of a 'deeds are better than words' kind of guy. But Einstein did believe in a god. I think his parable is really well put together.

While I respect your opinions, I feel like we are just going around in circles repeating the same arguments.

I do agree with your last paragraph. IMO, too many people think the simple act of going to church makes them religious, when it should be the way you live your life outside of church that defines your devotion.

 

[franklinstower]

I'm not about to piss on your belief, if you are happy believing in God, or let's be clear the Christian God, fine.

Now, just google, the free will dilema... There are many intent to solve this but at the end, it ends up with determinsi vs some unlogical stuff. But when it comes to faith, there's a shiiiiit ton of unlogical stuff that "scholars" repeat, follow by the "ignorance xxxxxx " (this normally happens when faith is confronted by logic)..

Look,faith is faith, and it's alright, what drives people crazy is when theist try to rationalize faith. Just like many things in Christianity, the free will dilema cannot be solved by the use of logic.

The fact that this dilemma has not been solved by theists philosophically is helpful to know.

I am not hanging my hat on the artist/contemplative argument that I put forth but it IS interesting that no theists have come up with a logical solution. It is also interesting that a criticism of Christianity is that it values reason above intuition and creativity. Many Christians have been very unsatisfied by this fact. I was deeply disappointed on this topic when I first entered into Christina theology.

 

[ultramanhyata]

The fact that this dilemma has not been solved by theists philosophically is helpful to know.

I am not hanging my hat on the artist/contemplative argument that I put forth but it IS interesting that no theists have come up with a logical solution. It is also interesting that a criticism of Christianity is that it values reason above intuition and creativity. Many Christians have been very unsatisfied by this fact. I was deeply disappointed on this topic when I first entered into Christina theology.

What was the post number of your artist/contemplative argument?

I just found this thread and it's of interest to me but it's already very long and I don't have time or desire to wade through all the numbskulls who lack the capacity to think deeply about these questions. Thanks.

 

[helltoupee]

You have said much that rings deeply in my heart man.

I started my spiritual path deeply interested in eastern forms of spirituality. It was ten years into that quest that I found the real Jesus (I knew the new age one) and christian theology.

One thing I would say that differs from what you so beautifully stated is that Christian and Jewish mysticism do not seek to become one with the whole to the degree that the individual self is lost. This is a sticking point with me and one of the reasons I have come to love Christian mysticism so deeply. Being human is NOT a mistake or a fall from this perspective. We and creation are created by God and are good. People are disordered by sin, but good to the core.

The Christian mystic seeks to become fully human, from this perspective and does not seek to lose their individuality but rather incorporate it into the greater whole. We seek a union with God and all of creation through Love-- cosmic burning love of intense energy. In this way we can remain the creature that God created but fulfill our vocation of uniting within our consciousness the whole of creation-- the heavenly, angelic and energetic spheres above and the whole of the physical universe and its creatures below all united in Love and in our union with God.
This mysticism is non dual but the union is a union of individuals.

Good conversation man. Major props for keeping things civil.

 

[tramendous]

I'm not, I'm just open to the theories of it and like listening to youtube videos about it.

Lol what you mean by 'open to theories of it'. Like you dont think flat earthers are being ridiculous?