Does it matter which part of the knee you strike with?

[f847]

Hi, I want to ask about muay thai kneeing technique.

As title: Does it matter which part of the knee you strike with?

Would there be a part of your knee that you are suppose to avoid striking with?

I notice almost all the pro fighters, athletes have had knee surgeries at some point in their careers. I know it is due to many reasons other than knee striking.

However I would like to be sure I get the right information before having a chance of injuring myself.

Is it okay to continuously striking with your knee cap(Patella)? (I don't mean the lower part of the knee cap)

Right now after every training sessions I can feel my knees kind of sore/hurting and click a lot more often than they used to be. But so does my shin bone, therefore I am not sure is it just conditioning or I am hitting the bags and pads with the wrong part of the knee.

Thanks in advance,

 

[Aed]

I'm not an expert, but I have trained with two guys who each have hundreds of fights in Thailand and they both seem to strike with the top of their patella every time.

One of them is 49 years old and I have never seen any indication that his knees are having problems.

Of course, I'm not a doctor, so I'm not giving medical advice. I'm just pointing out the two experienced examples I have seen (They might be the exceptions and that might be a terrible way to strike if you want to keep your knees healthy).

 

[fluffball]

I was taught to specifically NOT strike with the patella, although I know some people advocate it.

Martial arts, boxing, etc. are in a weird spot, because there is a ton of dogma and yet there aren't a lot of people who have actual medical training and have tested any of this shit. And there is really not much need or benefit to testing many of the martial arts myths since it affects almost no one and doesn't make anyone any money. Maybe some MMA guys that are really into science like GSP will fund a study on what part of the knee to strike with, haha.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I was taught to specifically NOT strike with the patella, although I know some people advocate it.

Martial arts, boxing, etc. are in a weird spot, because there is a ton of dogma and yet there aren't a lot of people who have actual medical training and have tested any of this shit. And there is really not much need or benefit to testing many of the martial arts myths since it affects almost no one and doesn't make anyone any money. Maybe some MMA guys that are really into science like GSP will fund a study on what part of the knee to strike with, haha.

This is an interesting and often overlooked point; one that all martial artists should consider and always keep in mind.

As far as TS questions I have two things that I can add to the discussion. In muay Thai I was taught to strike with the uppermost/top part of the patella (not the front/head on part of it). The reason given is that if you miscalculate your attack or meet a hard shield head on with your strike you'll regret aiming (and impacting) with the front or face of the patella.

2nd thing I can add is your concern with kneeing the heavy bag. Although the heavy bag is used for power, technique is also important, especially for the knee strike for the above mentioned reason. So I would suggest focusing 70% of your bag work on concentrating on proper technique and good mechanics (both of which have implications towards power anyway) and focus on power with your knee strikes on the bag only 30% of your bag time with the knees.

Another thing you can do (if you insist on going full power on your knee strikes 100% of the time) is to purchase or construct a canvas punching bag and fill it with saw dust instead of sand. This will be a little easier on your knees than the leather heavy bags filled with sand.

 

[j123]

...is to purchase or construct a canvas punching bag and fill it with saw dust instead of sand. This will be a little easier on your knees than the leather heavy bags filled with sand.

I'm curious about this. Is saw dust less dense? Also, being made of canvas, would that scrape the skin more, or is it that canvas mentioned because it might be cheaper than leather (or pleather)?

 

[AshiharaFan]

I'm curious about this. Is saw dust less dense?

Yes, it is.

Also, being made of canvas, would that scrape the skin more, or is it that canvas mentioned because it might be cheaper than leather (or pleather)?

Cheaper and not as "tough" as leather (no Run DMC pun intended). Yes, it can be somewhat rough and irritating on the skin. My solution for that is to wrap the knees before going to work on the bag.

 

[Kanka]

With the patella

 

[f847]

This is an interesting and often overlooked point; one that all martial artists should consider and always keep in mind.

As far as TS questions I have two things that I can add to the discussion. In muay Thai I was taught to strike with the uppermost/top part of the patella (not the front/head on part of it). The reason given is that if you miscalculate your attack or meet a hard shield head on with your strike you'll regret aiming (and impacting) with the front or face of the patella.

2nd thing I can add is your concern with kneeing the heavy bag. Although the heavy bag is used for power, technique is also important, especially for the knee strike for the above mentioned reason. So I would suggest focusing 70% of your bag work on concentrating on proper technique and good mechanics (both of which have implications towards power anyway) and focus on power with your knee strikes on the bag only 30% of your bag time with the knees.

Another thing you can do (if you insist on going full power on your knee strikes 100% of the time) is to purchase or construct a canvas punching bag and fill it with saw dust instead of sand. This will be a little easier on your knees than the leather heavy bags filled with sand.

Hi, thanks for the reply.

At the moment I am not focusing 100% on power on the bags.

My concern is just, my knees feel a little weak and they don't seem structured like the elbows. So do knees need to take a lot of conditioning to strengthen them like your shin bone? Or is it just the bad way how I strike with my knee. (I do strike with the top of the patella, like the top corner of it)

 

[AshiharaFan]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

At the moment I am not focusing 100% on power on the bags.

My concern is just, my knees feel a little weak and they don't seem structured like the elbows. So do knees need to take a lot of conditioning to strengthen them like your shin bone? Or is it just the bad way how I strike with my knee. (I do strike with the top of the patella, like the top corner of it)

My first guess would be that you have yet to get used to the workload that you're placing on your knees. Thanks to Wolf's Law your knees can get a little more conditioned over time but I don't think as much as we can condition our shins. I could be wrong though.

My second guess would be possibly a bad way of executing your knee strikes. That's something that you would definitely want to ask your coach about and have him examine and (if need be) correct your technique.

 

[Harukaze]

Definitely NOT the patella! Anyone that tells you to land with the patella is doing you a huge disservice! The patella is meant to be a bony pulley for the quadriceps tendon; it is NOT meant to take any impact or shock loading whatsoever; that's why patellar fractures occur so easily when a person lands on it during a fall (and the patella tends to shatter on impact). The patella is a little chip of a bone that is "floating" in the quadriceps tendon; it has neither the density nor stability to serve as an impact point. It's probably the WORST place (for you) with which to land a knee strike.

The ideal point of contact for a knee strike is land with the distal base of the femur: it's large and dense and is meant to take longitudinal loads. Because this is the main landing point, this is why the angle of your knee strikes make a huge difference. If the strike is too vertical and not horizontal enough, you land on the shaft of the femur instead, resulting in less impact (due to a less dense part of the femur wrapped in meaty quadriceps) and less leverage in the strike (due to the angle of the strike being more akin to a slap and less of a stab).

 

[Harukaze]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

At the moment I am not focusing 100% on power on the bags.

My concern is just, my knees feel a little weak and they don't seem structured like the elbows. So do knees need to take a lot of conditioning to strengthen them like your shin bone? Or is it just the bad way how I strike with my knee. (I do strike with the top of the patella, like the top corner of it)

You need to strengthen your quadriceps to increase the dynamic stability around your knee to reduce the load on the ligaments around and in the knee joint, and also keep your quads loose to ensure that you're able to flex (bend) your knees enough to expose the proper striking surface (the distal femur) properly. That, and just work on your knee strike technique, being sure to land your knees properly. Do these 2 things and I guarantee you that you will be able to blast away with knee strikes all day.

 

[f847]

You need to strengthen your quadriceps to increase the dynamic stability around your knee to reduce the load on the ligaments around and in the knee joint, and also keep your quads loose to ensure that you're able to flex (bend) your knees enough to expose the proper striking surface (the distal femur) properly. That, and just work on your knee strike technique, being sure to land your knees properly. Do these 2 things and I guarantee you that you will be able to blast away with knee strikes all day.

Thanks, that's some great info to know.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Definitely NOT the patella! Anyone that tells you to land with the patella is doing you a huge disservice! The patella is meant to be a bony pulley for the quadriceps tendon; it is NOT meant to take any impact or shock loading whatsoever; that's why patellar fractures occur so easily when a person lands on it during a fall (and the patella tends to shatter on impact).

It's time for us to compare notes and sources. But before that I want to be sure that we are talking about the same thing. I am going to repost my reply to TS below. Please look at your words that I placed in bold and large print and the words that I have placed in bold and large print in my post below:

In muay Thai I was taught to strike with the uppermost/top part of the patella (not the front/head on part of it). The reason given is that if you miscalculate your attack or meet a hard shield head on with your strike you'll regret aiming (and impacting) with the front or face of the patella.

Are we talking about the same part of the knee or not? The reason the patella shatters during a fall are for mainly 2 reasons:

1). Falling on a very unforgiving surface such as a concrete pavement. The midsection of the human body has an entirely different feel than something like concrete, marble, tile or asphalt.

2). Falling directly on the face/front of the patella.

I made sure to note in my reply to NOT strike or make impact with the front on or face of the patella but to aim instead with the upper part of that area of the knee. Look at this picture again that TS had posted.

When I say to try to strike with the upper part of the patella I am strictly talking about that pretty vast and basically unnamed area BETWEEN the top part of the patella and the femur and most certainly NOT with the direct, frontal portion of the patella. The ONLY WAY I would deliberately use the face of the patella as a weapon would be to stab into the soft, tender part of the inner thigh with it; nowhere else.

The patella is a little chip of a bone that is "floating" in the quadriceps tendon; it has neither the density nor stability to serve as an impact point. It's probably the WORST place (for you) with which to land a knee strike.

If you are talking about using the patella head on from the front I most certainly agree with you. But if you are also talking about using the top part of it and/or the area between the patella and femur I cannot agree with that. This is how I execute knee strikes and I have yet to run into any problems.

Also, while we are on this topic I think we should also look at technique (something else I mentioned in my post to TS). You are not supposed to dive straight in with your knee strikes because if you did, more than likely you will be making impact with the front of the patella (the knee CAP). Instead you are supposed to bring your knee from underneath your opponent's midsection and strike Upwards into him. Doing so is how you facilitate landing with the top part of the knee cap; the part of the knee that is still hard and bony right before you get to the softer parts leading into the top of the thigh.

The ideal point of contact for a knee strike is land with the distal base of the femur: it's large and dense and is meant to take longitudinal loads. Because this is the main landing point, this is why the angle of your knee strikes make a huge difference.

The importance of angle of knee strikes is a point I agree with fully. No argument on my part. If possible I am asking if you are willing to elaborate on the first part of this quote concerning the ideal point of contact for a knee strike and what you called the distal base of the femur. I think I know what you are talking about but I want to be sure before I make any kind of response to it.

 

[roventu]

it is hard to hit something at an angle that the patella wont hit before the femur (maybe if you have them well bent over, or you really shoot your hips out before the knee). I'm talking about straight on knees (not the ones that swing around to the side before impact). so itll always be a mix of both

also the problem of hurting your kneecap is low, because impact depends on what it is hitting, and it is usually the soft areas of the body. not to say you wont catch the stray knee on knee (which happened yesterday in sparring), but that is less based on whether you're aiming with the patella/femur and more that random shit happens during sparring lol

 

[AshiharaFan]

it is hard to hit something at an angle that the patella wont hit before the femur (maybe if you have them well bent over, or you really shoot your hips out before the knee). I'm talking about straight on knees (not the ones that swing around to the side before impact). so itll always be a mix of both

Yes, agreed. Which is why the top of the patella (knee cap) is the ideal striking surface. I honestly, seriously, most humbly cannot see how at least some portion of the patella will not be included on impact. I'm no expert though so I'm sure there are plenty of people who know more about this than I do. But due to what you said here is why I believe I was told to aim with at least the top of the knee cap. If some portion of the patella is going to be involved anyway it may as well be the part that is denser and has a larger area with which to make impact.

But I Think that Harukaze is saying the same thing but with different terminology. I'm thinking this is what he means when he said distal femur base. I believe he is actually referring to the same part of the knee but perhaps with a different name. Only he can let us know for sure though.

also the problem of hurting your kneecap is low, because impact depends on what it is hitting, and it is usually the soft areas of the body. not to say you wont catch the stray knee on knee (which happened yesterday in sparring), but that is less based on whether you're aiming with the patella/femur and more that random shit happens during sparring lol

I agree with this as well and tried to explain as much in my last post. Thanks for your input roventu.

 

[Harukaze]

It's time for us to compare notes and sources. But before that I want to be sure that we are talking about the same thing. I am going to repost my reply to TS below. Please look at your words that I placed in bold and large print and the words that I have placed in bold and large print in my post below:



Are we talking about the same part of the knee or not? The reason the patella shatters during a fall are for mainly 2 reasons:

1). Falling on a very unforgiving surface such as a concrete pavement. The midsection of the human body has an entirely different feel than something like concrete, marble, tile or asphalt.

2). Falling directly on the face/front of the patella.

I made sure to note in my reply to NOT strike or make impact with the front on or face of the patella but to aim instead with the upper part of that area of the knee. Look at this picture again that TS had posted.

When I say to try to strike with the upper part of the patella I am strictly talking about that pretty vast and basically unnamed area BETWEEN the top part of the patella and the femur and most certainly NOT with the direct, frontal portion of the patella. The ONLY WAY I would deliberately use the face of the patella as a weapon would be to stab into the soft, tender part of the inner thigh with it; nowhere else.



If you are talking about using the patella head on from the front I most certainly agree with you. But if you are also talking about using the top part of it and/or the area between the patella and femur I cannot agree with that. This is how I execute knee strikes and I have yet to run into any problems.

Also, while we are on this topic I think we should also look at technique (something else I mentioned in my post to TS). You are not supposed to dive straight in with your knee strikes because if you did, more than likely you will be making impact with the front of the patella (the knee CAP). Instead you are supposed to bring your knee from underneath your opponent's midsection and strike Upwards into him. Doing so is how you facilitate landing with the top part of the knee cap; the part of the knee that is still hard and bony right before you get to the softer parts leading into the top of the thigh.



The importance of angle of knee strikes is a point I agree with fully. No argument on my part. If possible I am asking if you are willing to elaborate on the first part of this quote concerning the ideal point of contact for a knee strike and what you called the distal base of the femur. I think I know what you are talking about but I want to be sure before I make any kind of response to it.

What you fail to understand is that the patella moves. When the knee is brought into flexion, the patella moves distally in relation to the femur; therefore, when you land a knee strike, you must flex your knee to create an impact point AND to move the patella out of the way of said impact point, which is the distal/inferior aspect of the femoral condyles (i.e. the distal base of the femur), what you refer to as a "vast and unnamed area between the patella and the femur" -- which is actually a part of the femur itself.


Note that the animation only goes to 90 deg, as you pass it, the patella moves further distally exposing more of the dense and massive femoral condyles, the ideal impact point for knee strikes.

It is also important to note that the patella can easily mistrack and become dislocated, almost moreso than any other bone in the human body; in fact, in often happens merely squatting or pivoting amongst people with high Q-angles. Add in impact that may have some errant and excessive mediolateral motion, and the potential for a patellar dislocation is very real. The potential for patellar fracture exists as well if knees clash and one patella lands on a distal femur or proximal tibia, both very massive and dense bony prominences that surround the knee joint.

As for knee strike technique, your advocacy for a positive parabolic movement does not generate the ideal force of landing point for a straight knee strike. Rather, the motion should be driven by hip extension and take on the path of a NEGATIVE parabolic path, with the final point of impact being more horizontal then vertical! Watch how the greatest knee striker of all time, Dieselnoi Chor. Thanasukarn, lands his knees more horizontally then vertically and the amount of impact it creates:

it is hard to hit something at an angle that the patella wont hit before the femur (maybe if you have them well bent over, or you really shoot your hips out before the knee). I'm talking about straight on knees (not the ones that swing around to the side before impact). so itll always be a mix of both

also the problem of hurting your kneecap is low, because impact depends on what it is hitting, and it is usually the soft areas of the body. not to say you wont catch the stray knee on knee (which happened yesterday in sparring), but that is less based on whether you're aiming with the patella/femur and more that random shit happens during sparring lol

Not true, it is exceedingly easy to land on the femoral condyles vs. the patella given that 1.) your knee is sufficiently flexed, and 2.) you extend your hips -- WHICH IS PRECISELY THE KEY TO a proper straight knee (see above Dieselnoi video)! As you become more skilled with your knee strike technique, you'll see fewer errant movements in sparring and your knees will become more precise in sparring as well as powerful on the bags/pads. The rewards of good technique are multifold!

 

[a guy]

What you fail to understand is that the patella moves. When the knee is brought into flexion, the patella moves distally in relation to the femur; therefore, when you land a knee strike, you must flex your knee to create an impact point AND to move the patella out of the way of said impact point, which is the distal/inferior aspect of the femoral condyles (i.e. the distal base of the femur), what you refer to as a "vast and unnamed area between the patella and the femur" -- which is actually a part of the femur itself.


Note that the animation only goes to 90 deg, as you pass it, the patella moves further distally exposing more of the dense and massive femoral condyles, the ideal impact point for knee strikes.

It is also important to note that the patella can easily mistrack and become dislocated, almost moreso than any other bone in the human body; in fact, in often happens merely squatting or pivoting amongst people with high Q-angles. Add in impact that may have some errant and excessive mediolateral motion, and the potential for a patellar dislocation is very real. The potential for patellar fracture exists as well if knees clash and one patella lands on a distal femur or proximal tibia, both very massive and dense bony prominences that surround the knee joint.

As for knee strike technique, your advocacy for a positive parabolic movement does not generate the ideal force of landing point for a straight knee strike. Rather, the motion should be driven by hip extension and take on the path of a NEGATIVE parabolic path, with the final point of impact being more horizontal then vertical! Watch how the greatest knee striker of all time, Dieselnoi Chor. Thanasukarn, lands his knees more horizontally then vertically and the amount of impact it creates:



Not true, it is exceedingly easy to land on the femoral condyles vs. the patella given that 1.) your knee is sufficiently flexed, and 2.) you extend your hips -- WHICH IS PRECISELY THE KEY TO a proper straight knee (see above Dieselnoi video)! As you become more skilled with your knee strike technique, you'll see fewer errant movements in sparring and your knees will become more precise in sparring as well as powerful on the bags/pads. The rewards of good technique are multifold!

Your posts are always a pleasure to read. Great stuff man.

 

[roventu]

Not true, it is exceedingly easy to land on the femoral condyles vs. the patella given that 1.) your knee is sufficiently flexed, and 2.) you extend your hips -- WHICH IS PRECISELY THE KEY TO a proper straight knee (see above Dieselnoi video)! As you become more skilled with your knee strike technique, you'll see fewer errant movements in sparring and your knees will become more precise in sparring as well as powerful on the bags/pads. The rewards of good technique are multifold!

I watched the video, and think it proves my argument more. look at the angles of the pad. now look at the angle of the padholder's body. Exactly what I said, what I saw was that the pads were angled horizontally, and the padholder's body is vertical. I said that you need your opponent bent over at the angle of the pad to be able to hit with the femur. if their body is more vertical, well you will not get the proper angle to avoid hitting with the kneecap, at least partially.

Take out the pads, and extend the trajectory of his knees until the impact on the padholder's body. you will see that all of those knees would've hit with the knee cap.

When you say the kneecap reveals the condyles of the femur if the knee is very flexed does not apply. From the 1st video, if you follow the movement (or feel your own knee), you would need your knee bent so far that the thighs touching the calves if you want to avoid hitting with the kneecap at all. Actually most, if not all of the knees I saw in the Dieselnoi video were bent at a right angle, and as per the 1st video you provided, the knee cap would still over the condyles., or at least partially.

like i said, it is hard to separate them completely, and you will most likely hit with both femur and kneecap. the kneecap was meant to cover the knee joint lol

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Lol at people who dont knee with their knees.

Brb kneeing with my quads

 

[Harukaze]

Your posts are always a pleasure to read. Great stuff man.

Thank you, it's always my pleasure.

I watched the video, and think it proves my argument more. look at the angles of the pad. now look at the angle of the padholder's body. Exactly what I said, what I saw was that the pads were angled horizontally, and the padholder's body is vertical. I said that you need your opponent bent over at the angle of the pad to be able to hit with the femur. if their body is more vertical, well you will not get the proper angle to avoid hitting with the kneecap, at least partially.

Take out the pads, and extend the trajectory of his knees until the impact on the padholder's body. you will see that all of those knees would've hit with the knee cap.

When you say the kneecap reveals the condyles of the femur if the knee is very flexed does not apply. From the 1st video, if you follow the movement (or feel your own knee), you would need your knee bent so far that the thighs touching the calves if you want to avoid hitting with the kneecap at all. Actually most, if not all of the knees I saw in the Dieselnoi video were bent at a right angle, and as per the 1st video you provided, the knee cap would still over the condyles., or at least partially.

like i said, it is hard to separate them completely, and you will most likely hit with both femur and kneecap. the kneecap was meant to cover the knee joint lol

In retrospect, I would agree that some aspect of the patella is most likely going to be part of the striking surface because nothing in this world is absolutely perfect, but it should NOT be the main striking surface.

As for the pads, they're not taking the brunt of the impact, they're catching and preventing the knee from sliding up off the belly pad, which is taking the brunt of the force as is typical for Thai padholders. While I do agree that a bent over opponent is the ideal situation, it is still very possible to knee strike a vertically oriented opponent with the femoral condyles as the main striking surface. Also, to be fair, Dieselnoi has a major height advantage which will also nicely facilitate proper landing of knee strikes as well.

Lastly, the patella's primary role is to provide leverage for knee extension. Its role in protecting the knee joint is tertiary and, to be completely honest, rather last ditch as evident in its anatomy (why is it a stupid little potato chip of a bone suspended in a tendon instead of an extended bony sheath from the tibia, like the upper lip of a shinguard?).