Explain this Weight Transfer Please

[mikiemike87]

Hey guys,

I was really impressed at how many people were knowledgeable on biomechanics of striking in the arm swing thread, and so I had a question I thought I'd field to the forum.

So I managed to squeeze in a session with Chatchai Sasakul ( former world boxing champ) during my 2 week grind at Chuwatanna. The big emphasis on the private was the weight transfer that felt different, but instantly better. He demonstrated how to use it going forwards, backwards, and in place on the bag. The big difference between this form and the form thats been taught at other gyms I've been to is it doesn't have a lot of ground contact, and a "grounding of the cigarette" type twist on the ball of the foot. Its more like he picks the foot up and drops it on the ball of the foot. I can say intuitively, I feel more balanced, and my punches have more pop. If I was a younger man wanting to compete I'd just be happy that my form has improved. Being an old ass 30 year old with a critical mind, I really want to understand this type of weight transfer on as many levels as I can. So thats why I'm hoping to get some insight from forum members.

Louis ( Sinister) was kind enough to offer insights on this particular weight transfer, and told me its not commonly taught, and mostly a Russian or Cuban influence. Other than the fact that the technique is very correct, he didn't want to get too into the hypotheticals.

My own intitial theorycrafting, I think its a different take on "neo footwork" and how the weight transfer can be elongated or shortened to operate both in the realm of muay thai, boxing, and assuredly mma. It feels extremely balanced which is a hallmark of thai striking, no flourishes like flick jabs or check hooks. Every punch is designed to be well balanced with good pop. As audacious as it sounds, I wanted to theorize potential weaknesses.


I watched Palongpol's recent boxing title match, and he was stopped in the later rounds. Palongpol being coached by Chatchai, I saw many of the principles taught to me on day 1, good pop on his punches ( swelling up both eyes), and well balanced in everything he did. But he seemed to only move the same way on every punch whereas we've seen with elite boxers they can exit on either side off a punch. His opponent would throw quick successive punches into power punches that eventually piled on and pave the way to the stoppage. Whereas Palongpol seemed to have only one quality to his punches. Boxing of course is not my forte, so these are just my thoughts mainly from a muay thai perspective. I don't mean any disrespect to Chatchai as he's a fantastic coach, but I'm just too damn inquisitive for my own good. I love dissecting a technique and its application. Any insight, feedback especially on the biomechanics of the weight transfer would be greatly appreciated!

If you're ever in Bangkok, a private costed 30 dollars for the hour! Chatchai has surprisingly good english and was able to articulate many of the punch concepts really well. If you're a fight fan of any discipline, he's worth every dollar and then some!

 

[freaky]

Whoa that's some capoeira stuff going on there.

It's like momentum, I'm guessing.

 

[Sinister]

The problem in the above fight wasn't ineffective offense, it was defensive irresponsibility. And against a KO artist no less.

 

[mikiemike87]

Appreciate the further input! Ill definitely rewatch the fight with a different lens!

 

[curlyface]

The problem in the above fight wasn't ineffective offense, it was defensive irresponsibility. And against a KO artist no less.

Would you recommend this style to someone who is in the early development stage of their striking in MT? It seems like maybe these punches aren't exactly the most effective for boxing but in MT they tend to stick the punches more and this seems like a better way to do that. I trained boxing style punches for a while but after seeing sylvies video with Chitchai I started trying to learn that method. Would you say this is an effective striking method or should I learn it a different way?

 

[j123]

Would you recommend this style to someone who is in the early development stage of their striking in MT? It seems like maybe these punches aren't exactly the most effective for boxing but in MT they tend to stick the punches more and this seems like a better way to do that. I trained boxing style punches for a while but after seeing sylvies video with Chitchai I started trying to learn that method. Would you say this is an effective striking method or should I learn it a different way?

In the early stages of MT, ammy I'm assuming, the punches aren't really there as damage weapons, really its your kick and clinching that are the money makers. Hands are a way just to set it up. Combinations such as 1,2,3,kick and 1,kick,3,2 will be taught and ingrained to you. The purpose of those combos lie in the kick. So adding punches in is a plus and it doesn't really take away anything. Though in the future you should invest more in proper boxing mechanics. I'm considering it myself, a few gyms here have integrated a good boxing program and their fighters are blowing the ammy scene away. Its been the trend for the past couple of years, I suspect more gyms will catch on soon.

But if you're in America, I'm gonna guess that boxing is a common repertoire in the programs there, here (Canada) boxing isn't that common in MT gyms which is why its taking by storm.

 

[curlyface]

In the early stages of MT, ammy I'm assuming, the punches aren't really there as damage weapons, really its your kick and clinching that are the money makers. Hands are a way just to set it up. Combinations such as 1,2,3,kick and 1,kick,3,2 will be taught and ingrained to you. The purpose of those combos lie in the kick. So adding punches in is a plus and it doesn't really take away anything. Though in the future you should invest more in proper boxing mechanics. I'm considering it myself, a few gyms here have integrated a good boxing program and their fighters are blowing the ammy scene away. Its been the trend for the past couple of years, I suspect more gyms will catch on soon.

But if you're in America, I'm gonna guess that boxing is a common repertoire in the programs there, here (Canada) boxing isn't that common in MT gyms which is why its taking by storm.

I'm in Canada too.

I figured if I'm going to learn to punch I might as well learn the most effective way for MT and not have to change it later. I do agree that the hands are really there to set up kicks but there's something beautiful in those chitchai strikes and it wouldnt hurt to have some knock out power in the punches too.

 

[mikiemike87]

Namsaknoi demonstrates a distance covering punch which isn't commonly taught. Punching can serve different purposes for mt due to its longer nature. You see Saenchai use this style punch all the time in his fights. Often in modern thai style muay thai, you'll see this punch used for the sole purpose of covering distance, and rarely will you see punches designed to hurt in stadium fights simply because it doesn't score well, and if they're resorting to damaging punches in the 5th, they're usually way down in the scorecards. It's an unfortunate byproduct of gamblers' effect on the fights.

The 80s however produced some crazy good muay thai fighters and boxers in Somrak, Samart, and the lesser known older brother Kongtoranee. They each adapted boxing very well into their muay thai, and might be good place to look for film study. Samart had the slickest teep/jab flow, Kongtoranee is in my opinion a better version of Dekkers. So interesting how two brothers developed such contrasting styles. Both of them won fighter of the year awards, and Kongtoranee challenged but lost for both the wba and wbo title at a weight class I forget.

Fundamentally sound boxing will absolutely have a place in Mt, as long as you're mindful of when, where, how, and why you're using them. Samart had a very slick way of using it, whereas Kongtoranee was more committed to eating space due to his atypical stocky build. So just like there are different styles of boxing, there are different ways of implementing sound boxing into Mt.

Specific to the weight transfer taught by Chatchai, it's viable going forwards, backwards, circular, long and in tight. So yes, I absolutely feel like it can benefit your muay thai greatly. However having such a watchful eye as Chatchai or one of his fighters overseeing your form is unlikely. So diligent drilling and solid self coaching is important.

 

[kenji goh]

TS, this video was uploaded today.


Putting the punching form aside, the weight distribution is very similar to what good western boxing trainers like Sinister teach.
Interesting that she found it revolutionary. I say that because I have seen here some arguments with some muay thai purists
who don't see what merits can proper boxing weight transfer and stances bring to Muay Thai.

 

[mikiemike87]

I got excited when I saw the video title, but what she says is standard boxing and muay thai principle. I've been following sinister's posts for many years now and even took a private at Tocco's while passing through. The general movement of opposite leg focus is pretty standard even in muay thai, it's more so what's happening RIGHT at the ball I wanted some illumination on. I'm noticing most people aren't seeing the difference, even though I mentioned it's an uncommon form of weight transfer mentionedby our resident boxing pundit himself. I'm just going to let this thread die, it was worth a shot.

I find sylvie grasp on boxing lacking which is totally fine for an active muay khao. I mentioned it in another thread, but I find she misses the mark sometimes. Sasakul teaches this weight transfer with large broad steps and how it can be used to move around, on the mitts emphasizing the step in the punch, but also in place on the bag. It's the centerpiece of his privates I feel, but she was too focused on cleaning up everything else that she missed it. She couldn't quite figure out what her feet was doing bc she couldn't seem to jab and keep her weight over the back foot.

 

[ARIZE]

Don't forget that weight transfer has a lot more consequences in MT than in Boxing. It's not just about punching power and closing distances... It's also about been able to kick or check.

From a personal experience: In MT, I'm always heavy on the back foot. My front is almost floating, lightly bouncing. My front is always on the ball of the foot. Even when kicking with the rear, meaning that my weight to the front, my front foot is on the ball of the foot. I don't really like the step in low kick, but even then, my step is on the ball of the foot.
So for me, I'm used to a certain type of balance, certain type of steps from MT.

Now, when I do boxing, my balance, weight distribution all that, changes, and I'm OK with that. I understand the logic, and i think of my self good enough at it, feeling comfortable enough and no needing to pay attention to it.
But if I try the "boxing balance" in MT, it feel so wrong, so awkward and even dangerous... I cannot use the same type of balance or weight shifting when punching...
It's alienating my stance in a way that i cannot perform anymore...

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

I got excited when I saw the video title, but what she says is standard boxing and muay thai principle. I've been following sinister's posts for many years now and even took a private at Tocco's while passing through. The general movement of opposite leg focus is pretty standard even in muay thai, it's more so what's happening RIGHT at the ball I wanted some illumination on. I'm noticing most people aren't seeing the difference, even though I mentioned it's an uncommon form of weight transfer mentionedby our resident boxing pundit himself. I'm just going to let this thread die, it was worth a shot.

I find sylvie grasp on boxing lacking which is totally fine for an active muay khao. I mentioned it in another thread, but I find she misses the mark sometimes. Sasakul teaches this weight transfer with large broad steps and how it can be used to move around, on the mitts emphasizing the step in the punch, but also in place on the bag. It's the centerpiece of his privates I feel, but she was too focused on cleaning up everything else that she missed it. She couldn't quite figure out what her feet was doing bc she couldn't seem to jab and keep her weight over the back foot.

My biggest issue here is that you're not explaining what the weight transfer is very effectively, so I can't really see the specific thing you're talking about coz I don't know what to watch for.

 

[mikiemike87]

But if I try the "boxing balance" in MT, it feel so wrong, so awkward and even dangerous... I cannot use the same type of balance or weight shifting when punching...
It's alienating my stance in a way that i cannot perform anymore...

I think you can still punch with solid boxing mechanics, but without the deeper more rooted stance taught in boxing gyms. Samart of course came back and fought very upright, his brother Kongtoranee was a big power puncher, and also fought very upright. I think the biggest issue to circumvent would be not wading in to punch in a boxing stance and getting eaten alive by leg kicks. I recently discovered Kongtoranee, who was a 5 division lumpinee champ 1984 Fighter of the Year, and contended for WBA/WBO boxing titles. What a menace this guy was when he got inside to uncork some hooks and uppers, but a large majority of the time he's upright ready to check kicks. Pink shorts in the below video.

My biggest issue here is that you're not explaining what the weight transfer is very effectively, so I can't really see the specific thing you're talking about coz I don't know what to watch for.

The point wasn't to teach this, but to understand it better. I described it as best as I could. It's more of pick up and drop, than a ground twisting in place at the ball of the foot. Not sure how else to explain it because I literally was just introduced to it 3 weeks ago. I can do it consciously, I continue to drill it, but I don't understand why it feels better was the point of the thread.

 

[a guy]

Are you talking about stepping with the ball of the opposite foot to facilitate the weight transfer?

 

[mikiemike87]

Yes! Exactly, you can hear a noticeable percussive sound as Sasakul drops on the ball of the foot, but everything prior was light with minimal ground contact. He was just demonstrating the left hook, but he does it on all his punches in the long form video that Im not allowed to embed. Sinister referred me to this video of one of his guest coaches that teaches the same transfer. Rewatching the video below, its like a percussive step-tap-dig in at the ball with the rotation happening off the ground maybe?

 

[a guy]

Yes! Exactly, you can hear a noticeable percussive sound as Sasakul drops on the ball of the foot, but everything prior was light with minimal ground contact. He was just demonstrating the left hook, but he does it on all his punches in the long form video that Im not allowed to embed. Sinister referred me to this video of one of his guest coaches that teaches the same transfer. Rewatching the video below, its like a percussive step-tap-dig in at the ball with the rotation happening off the ground maybe?

Ah ok. So I don't think it's all that unusual in terms of transferring weight, at least in boxing. It's pretty basic. It allows you to shift weight while moving your feet.

To understand it a little more, just think about how your weight moves when you're walking. If I stand up and take a step forward, I'll shift my weight onto the foot stepping forward and put the heel down, while I'll be up on the ball of the driving foot. This then transitions to all of my weight shifting to the stepping foot, and the driving foot becoming weightless so that it can move forward and be planted in front of me, ready to bear my weight again, at which point again the heel will go down and I'll come up on the ball of the foot I originally stepped with to help push the weight. This weight transfer is super natural. You do it every day. All you're doing now is learning to apply it in a fighting context, which means doing it while moving in multiple directions while maintaining your stance and being more grounded.

I don't know that I'd say it's a different type of weight shifting, it's more like a combination of the normal weight shifting (pivoting on the driving foot) and basic footwork. You're still driving with the foot/hip you're hitting with and pulling/bracing with the other foot, you're just also taking a small step that helps you shift the weight, and helps you do it on the move. Think of the ball of the foot like a spring that gives you a little bit more drive, and sometimes it helps to think like you're front snap kicking the floor. This step also helps you with the coordination and timing of the weight shift, because you learn to sync the step on the ball with the impact, ensuring that you're grounded as the punch lands and have leverage.

Does that make sense? I can try to expand on anything that's unclear.

 

[ARIZE]

I think you can still punch with solid boxing mechanics, but without the deeper more rooted stance taught in boxing gyms.

I agree with you it's possible, but what i want to point out that it is not that simple. Some around here, expect that you can take any Nak Muay, show him some boxing tutorials, and he will be able use those shifting weight/balancing techniques... And if he doesn't, that's because he is not a good athlete.

They don't understand that a slight change in balance from the usual one they are used to, makes a huge difference in everything else... from movement, striking, defense, and with that strategies, tactics etc...

Again...It will work for some... but either they have a boxing background, or cross trained long enough... Or they are just talented in that aspect. Or they have a coach who is into that, who shaped them like that...

And it's the same with most of martial arts in my opinion...You can't expect a guy from TKD to have a good rear "boxing" hook for example... even if in some occasion it could be benefit, and some might pull it off, they must change a shit load of details in every aspect of their game to be able to use it constantly and efficiently in matches...

 

[Paradigm]

Namsaknoi demonstrates a distance covering punch which isn't commonly taught. Punching can serve different purposes for mt due to its longer nature. You see Saenchai use this style punch all the time in his fights. Often in modern thai style muay thai, you'll see this punch used for the sole purpose of covering distance, and rarely will you see punches designed to hurt in stadium fights simply because it doesn't score well, and if they're resorting to damaging punches in the 5th, they're usually way down in the scorecards. It's an unfortunate byproduct of gamblers' effect on the fights.

The 80s however produced some crazy good muay thai fighters and boxers in Somrak, Samart, and the lesser known older brother Kongtoranee. They each adapted boxing very well into their muay thai, and might be good place to look for film study. Samart had the slickest teep/jab flow, Kongtoranee is in my opinion a better version of Dekkers. So interesting how two brothers developed such contrasting styles. Both of them won fighter of the year awards, and Kongtoranee challenged but lost for both the wba and wbo title at a weight class I forget.

Fundamentally sound boxing will absolutely have a place in Mt, as long as you're mindful of when, where, how, and why you're using them. Samart had a very slick way of using it, whereas Kongtoranee was more committed to eating space due to his atypical stocky build. So just like there are different styles of boxing, there are different ways of implementing sound boxing into Mt.

Specific to the weight transfer taught by Chatchai, it's viable going forwards, backwards, circular, long and in tight. So yes, I absolutely feel like it can benefit your muay thai greatly. However having such a watchful eye as Chatchai or one of his fighters overseeing your form is unlikely. So diligent drilling and solid self coaching is important.

Hah...I met Kongtoranee when I visited Evolve MMA in Singapore some years back. Dude was an MT legend in his own right, with belts in 5 different weight classes at Lumpinee. Actually showed the pic of me and him to his bro Samart when I was driving him back in April. Him and Samart definitely have a different build.

 

[mikiemike87]

Ah ok. So I don't think it's all that unusual in terms of transferring weight, at least in boxing. It's pretty basic. It allows you to shift weight while moving your feet.

To understand it a little more, just think about how your weight moves when you're walking. If I stand up and take a step forward, I'll shift my weight onto the foot stepping forward and put the heel down, while I'll be up on the ball of the driving foot. This then transitions to all of my weight shifting to the stepping foot, and the driving foot becoming weightless so that it can move forward and be planted in front of me, ready to bear my weight again, at which point again the heel will go down and I'll come up on the ball of the foot I originally stepped with to help push the weight. This weight transfer is super natural. You do it every day. All you're doing now is learning to apply it in a fighting context, which means doing it while moving in multiple directions while maintaining your stance and being more grounded.

I don't know that I'd say it's a different type of weight shifting, it's more like a combination of the normal weight shifting (pivoting on the driving foot) and basic footwork. You're still driving with the foot/hip you're hitting with and pulling/bracing with the other foot, you're just also taking a small step that helps you shift the weight, and helps you do it on the move. Think of the ball of the foot like a spring that gives you a little bit more drive, and sometimes it helps to think like you're front snap kicking the floor. This step also helps you with the coordination and timing of the weight shift, because you learn to sync the step on the ball with the impact, ensuring that you're grounded as the punch lands and have leverage.

Does that make sense? I can try to expand on anything that's unclear.

This is what I've been looking for! I really appreciate the input. It makes a little more sense with the walking example. I do think I misspoke calling it a different weight transfer, its more of a flourish. I like the snap kicking visual as well. Do you see any pros and cons to this particular step? I'm very new to it, so I find it feels great on single strikes, but chaining combinations together feels awkward. But in the video, the guy hitting mitts moved pretty seamlessly, so I do think it may be my inexperience with it.

@ARIZE
I agree 100%. Many people seem to think MT guys have trash boxing, and can logically be crushed with a more boxing centric approach. I think slotting it in comes after learning the essentials, if at all. Yodwicha was an elite thai with zero boxing, and now he's crushing dudes without the clinch.

@Paradigm
That's amazing! So jealous. I'm a huge fan already. I really love how atypical his frame and fighting style was. Anyone who ever mentions Dekkers to me will get a Kongtoranee replacement instead! I'm going to try to seek him out for a private next time I'm in Bangkok. I hear he's head coach over the stable of fighters at Samart's gym now.

 

[Sinister]

Ah ok. So I don't think it's all that unusual in terms of transferring weight, at least in boxing. It's pretty basic. It allows you to shift weight while moving your feet.

To understand it a little more, just think about how your weight moves when you're walking. If I stand up and take a step forward, I'll shift my weight onto the foot stepping forward and put the heel down, while I'll be up on the ball of the driving foot. This then transitions to all of my weight shifting to the stepping foot, and the driving foot becoming weightless so that it can move forward and be planted in front of me, ready to bear my weight again, at which point again the heel will go down and I'll come up on the ball of the foot I originally stepped with to help push the weight. This weight transfer is super natural. You do it every day. All you're doing now is learning to apply it in a fighting context, which means doing it while moving in multiple directions while maintaining your stance and being more grounded.

I don't know that I'd say it's a different type of weight shifting, it's more like a combination of the normal weight shifting (pivoting on the driving foot) and basic footwork. You're still driving with the foot/hip you're hitting with and pulling/bracing with the other foot, you're just also taking a small step that helps you shift the weight, and helps you do it on the move. Think of the ball of the foot like a spring that gives you a little bit more drive, and sometimes it helps to think like you're front snap kicking the floor. This step also helps you with the coordination and timing of the weight shift, because you learn to sync the step on the ball with the impact, ensuring that you're grounded as the punch lands and have leverage.

Does that make sense? I can try to expand on anything that's unclear.

It's not all that standard in Boxing anymore. I live in the Boxing Mecca and I can count on my hands how many trainers I've ever seen actually teach their fighters HOW to sit down on their punches and shift their weight efficiently. And then WHEN to shift that weight and when not to. Most of them give some watered down version of it and then yell at their students if they don't replicate it say with around 75% accuracy of what they were shown. In other words they hear a lot to do some shit they were never thoroughly explained how to do. And to add to that, it's almost exclusively taught in the context of offense, and nearly not at all in the context of defense, where it's actually far more useful.

This is one of the reasons one of the things I'm going to do as I age, and as what I do expands, I'm going to start doing seminars on how to teach this shit better.