Crime FBI claims to have thwarted militia plot to kidnap governor Whitmer

This is how many large scale investigations work like drug busts, like how Marion Berry was set up, how many illegal gun traders are caught. Pretty common for LE to offer something illegal to a suspect and see if they take the bait. Like sending out a cop dressed as a hooker to see if they catch any john's.

Happens all the time.

Disagree. Using your analogy, the cops aren't just sending out a hook to work the corner. LE over hears a guy at a bar wishing he could get a hooker, then send a hooker to the John's house, supply him with condoms, and the hooker is a Scarlett Johansson lookalike. It's entrapment. The suspect would never have solicited a hooker in a real world scenario, the cops have to manufacturer it.

In Witmore's case, LE found some goof balls talking dumb shit, supplied them with all the necessary tools to make the plan viable (logistics, money, etc.), that otherwise wouldn't have been available. It's why they were acquitted. It's entrapment.
 
Disagree. Using your analogy, the cops aren't just sending out a hook to work the corner. LE over hears a guy at a bar wishing he could get a hooker, then send a hooker to the John's house, supply him with condoms, and the hooker is a Scarlett Johansson lookalike. It's entrapment. The suspect would never have solicited a hooker in a real world scenario, the cops have to manufacturer it.

In Witmore's case, LE found some goof balls talking dumb shit, supplied them with all the necessary tools to make the plan viable (logistics, money, etc.), that otherwise wouldn't have been available. It's why they were acquitted. It's entrapment.


I though there were two convictions in the Whitmer plot yesterday? This is the way these kinds of investigations happen.

Look at the mayor Berry investigation. He was in a hotel room with his lover for a hook up. She was in on it with the cops who were filming the whole thing and in the next room, she brought some crack with her and her job was to get the mayor to take a hit.

He didn't want to get high, he just wanted to get laid. She insisted he smoke some crack before sex so he took a hit and the cops came storming in. Guilty, booted out of office. Look at Abscam investigation. These tactics are very common.
 
Yeah, a lot of people don’t understand what entrapment really is. The state has to induce the crime and the suspects wouldn’t have reasonably done it otherwise.
And in this case, they reasonably wouldn’t have done it, wouldn’t have had the funding or means to do it; and wouldn’t have had a plan of action for it either.

The judge biased the jury by giving improper instructions that basically stated even if they couldn’t do the plot without the FBI informants that they were guilty.

The FBI assets funded the plot, hatched the plot and pressured these guys into it; up to and including having a female asset get high with and sleep in the same bed as one of the guys they just convicted.

FBI gonna FBI and headline readers will write this off as a win instead of a failure of the justice system.
 
I though there were two convictions in the Whitmer plot yesterday? This is the way these kinds of investigations happen.

Look at the mayor Berry investigation. He was in a hotel room with his lover for a hook up. She was in on it with the cops who were filming the whole thing and in the next room, she brought some crack with her and her job was to get the mayor to take a hit.

He didn't want to get high, he just wanted to get laid. She insisted he smoke some crack before sex so he took a hit and the cops came storming in. Guilty, booted out of office. Look at Abscam investigation. These tactics are very common.

The two confessed, they were not convicted. The ones that fought it got off, if memory serves. Also, if memory serves, Berry didn't get booted from office, in fact I think he won re-election.
 
I though there were two convictions in the Whitmer plot yesterday? This is the way these kinds of investigations happen.

Look at the mayor Berry investigation. He was in a hotel room with his lover for a hook up. She was in on it with the cops who were filming the whole thing and in the next room, she brought some crack with her and her job was to get the mayor to take a hit.

He didn't want to get high, he just wanted to get laid. She insisted he smoke some crack before sex so he took a hit and the cops came storming in. Guilty, booted out of office. Look at Abscam investigation. These tactics are very common.

Memory Lane, aka Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Barry

Cliffs:
He was only convicted of one of the charges the jury deadlocked on the other ones, because the "bitch set him up".
He lost the election but ran again two years later and won.

God bless America.
 
And in this case, they reasonably wouldn’t have done it, wouldn’t have had the funding or means to do it; and wouldn’t have had a plan of action for it either.

The judge biased the jury by giving improper instructions that basically stated even if they couldn’t do the plot without the FBI informants that they were guilty.
That’s not true. The judge told the jury that it’s not entrapment if the defendants would have committed the crime, in this case kidnapping conspiracy and conspiracy to possess weapons of mass destruction.

That’s what the law states as far as entrapment is concerned. Inducement isn’t what you think it is.

A valid entrapment defense has two related elements: (1) government inducement of the crime, and (2) the defendant's lack of predisposition to engage in the criminal conduct. Mathews v. United States, 485 U.S. 58, 63 (1988). Of the two elements, predisposition is by far the more important.

Inducement is the threshold issue in the entrapment defense. Mere solicitation to commit a crime is not inducement. Sorrells v. United States, 287 U.S. 435, 451 (1932). Nor does the government's use of artifice, stratagem, pretense, or deceit establish inducement. Id. at 441. Rather, inducement requires a showing of at least persuasion or mild coercion

The FBI assets funded the plot, hatched the plot and pressured these guys into it; up to and including having a female asset get high with and sleep in the same bed as one of the guys they just convicted.

FBI gonna FBI and headline readers will write this off as a win instead of a failure of the justice system.
I know a lot of you guys have a soft spot for whackadoodle militia members, but come on… these guys were planning this way before the FBI ever got involved.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...mer-kidnap-big-dan-fbi-informant/10328323002/

What got them in this mess in the first place was that they were targeting law enforcement in order to slow their response. Of course LEOs didn’t like that idea, which is why these defendants are facing life in prison. You don’t have to be “good at crime” to be convicted.
 
The two confessed, they were not convicted. The ones that fought it got off, if memory serves. Also, if memory serves, Berry didn't get booted from office, in fact I think he won re-election.

Do you follow the news much?

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/23/1119015754/2-guilty-gretchen-whitmer-kidnap-plot

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. — A jury on Tuesday convicted two men of conspiring to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer in 2020, in a plot prosecutors described as a rallying cry for a U.S. civil war by anti-government extremists.
 
Memory Lane, aka Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Barry

Cliffs:
He was only convicted of one of the charges the jury deadlocked on the other ones, because the "bitch set him up".
He lost the election but ran again two years later and won.

God bless America.

Well that was over 30 years ago and I was just going from memory. Glad I inspired a little history lesson and I hope you found the research interesting.

I make a fair point though, this is the way large scale investigations are conducted.
 
That’s not true. The judge told the jury that it’s not entrapment if the defendants would have committed the crime, in this case kidnapping conspiracy and conspiracy to possess weapons of mass destruction.

That’s what the law states as far as entrapment is concerned. Inducement isn’t what you think it is.

A valid entrapment defense has two related elements: (1) government inducement of the crime, and (2) the defendant's lack of predisposition to engage in the criminal conduct. Mathews v. United States, 485 U.S. 58, 63 (1988). Of the two elements, predisposition is by far the more important.

Inducement is the threshold issue in the entrapment defense. Mere solicitation to commit a crime is not inducement. Sorrells v. United States, 287 U.S. 435, 451 (1932). Nor does the government's use of artifice, stratagem, pretense, or deceit establish inducement. Id. at 441. Rather, inducement requires a showing of at least persuasion or mild coercion


I know a lot of you guys have a soft spot for whackadoodle militia members, but come on… these guys were planning this way before the FBI ever got involved.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...mer-kidnap-big-dan-fbi-informant/10328323002/

What got them in this mess in the first place was that they were targeting law enforcement in order to slow their response. Of course LEOs didn’t like that idea, which is why these defendants are facing life in prison. You don’t have to be “good at crime” to be convicted.
And text messages from the two men convicted the other day, and testimony from government assets that they were hesitant about carrying out the plot, instead insisting they just need to shoot the governor’s mansion when they’re not occupying it, pretty much shows they aren’t predisposed to the crime.
 
And text messages from the two men convicted the other day, and testimony from government assets that they were hesitant about carrying out the plot, instead insisting they just need to shoot the governor’s mansion when they’re not occupying it, pretty much shows they aren’t predisposed to the crime.
Plenty of criminals are “hesitant” to do crimes that they planned before they actually went through with them. Like I said before, entrapment is a very narrow legal defense, and these defendants didn’t meet that standard.

Criminals don’t have to be good at doing crimes or avoid having any second thoughts in order to be convicted. In fact, a lot of inmates are in jail because they lost their cool and made mistakes.

These domestic terrorists wanted to hurt a lot of people, and they belong in prison because of that reason.
 
Ringleader of Whitmer kidnapping plot gets lengthy prison sentence

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (WOOD) — One of the men convicted of plotting to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer will spend 16 years in a federal prison.

Adam Fox was sentenced by Judge Robert Jonker on Tuesday morning at the federal courthouse in Grand Rapids. In addition to the 192 months in prison, the judge imposed five years of supervised release, $2,000 in fines and fees and ordered Fox to participate in a substance abuse recovery program.

“This is incredibly serious activity and there is no doubt about that in my mind,” Jonker said.

The judge said Whitmer will have to bear the trauma of the plot and it will weigh on other government officials as they consider their careers.

“That does need a forceful sentence from the court,” Jonker said.

Son of renowned American painter convicted in Jan. 6 attack on Capitol
Investigators say Fox, of metro Grand Rapids, and another man, Barry Croft Jr. of Delaware, led a militia that planned to kidnap Whitmer. In court, prosecutors presented evidence that the men intended to snatch her from her vacation home near Elk Rapids and blow up bridges to slow down the police chasing them. Investigators say the men held training exercises and tried to buy explosives for the kidnapping — though the sellers were actually undercover FBI agents. The plot was busted in October 2020.

Federal prosecutors had argued Fox should be sentenced to life in prison under a terrorism enhancement that they said was appropriate because he planned to blow up bridges. They also said that his sentence should be severe because the victim in the case is a government official and because Fox was a leader in the plot.

“… Mr. Fox was really the driving force,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Nils Kessler said. “I think it’s fair to say that none of this would have happened if Mr. Fox had not been involved.”

He said Fox was an active recruiter and told others he would lead by example. Kessler referenced all of the preparation the group did, including training at a “kill house” they built.

He condemned Fox’s motive for the alleged kidnapping, saying he wanted to start a revolution or “second Civil War.” He recognized the “outrageous” nature of the plot, but said that the riot at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, was evidence that Fox was not alone in his line of thinking. Kessler said that Fox’s sentence should serve as an example for others who might be considering similar plans.

Kessler called Fox remorseless, adding that Fox was “smirking” at him in the courtroom as he went through his sentencing arguments.

Defense attorneys disagreed with a life sentence, saying Fox and his group would never have been able to actually kidnap the governor. Fox’s attorney Christopher Gibbons spoke only briefly at sentencing, saying that prosecutors were overstating Fox’s role.

Asked by the judge if he would like to make a statement, Fox said only that he was satisfied with what his lawyer had put forth.

“We can all be thankful they (the FBI agents) were there early,” Jonker said.

But Jonker said that while the case was serious, he did not think a life sentence was necessary to serve as a deterrent.

Whitmer did not attend the hearing, nor did she send a statement to be read aloud in open court.

Jonker agreed with prosecutors that Fox was in a leadership role and that the plot was clearly defined, had a clear target and had a deadline. He also made it clear he disagreed with the defense’s argument that Fox and his group were entrapped by FBI agents, saying he saw criminal intent from the defendants.

Two of the conspirators pleaded guilty and two other co-defendants were acquitted in the spring. The spring jury deadlocked on Fox and Croft; they were retried and convicted in August.

Sentencing for Croft — described by Kessler as the “ideas guy” of the conspiracy — is scheduled for 10 a.m. Wednesday.

https://www.yourerie.com/news/ringleader-of-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-gets-lengthy-prison-sentence/
 
off-to-work-leaving.gif
 
Who could have foreseen this.


But on the same page you posted:

They finally find a jury of rubes to convict the other two? not surprised

So what exactly was different in this jury outcome, other than it came to the conclusion you wanted? Seems like you just cry about jury verdicts you don't like, then act like it was a sure thing all along when the ball bounces the other way.

Anyway, what a victory you have here. Because no matter how you skip over the details, this was still a story about a half dozen obese trump supporters who contemplated kidnapping their governor to start the MAGA revolution or something. The only real question with to the jury was whether or not they took those ideas far enough to warrant a crime.

I know you think you're being edgy right now, but it's kinda sad grandpa.
 
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