Crime Federal report finds 68,000 guns were illegally trafficked through unlicensed dealers over 5 years

[oldshadow]

And how is one supposed to know if someone is a "prohibited possessor" without a background check? The honor system?

You don't have to do purchase background check. Just put the responsibility where it should be. If a "prohibited possessor" is caught with a gun make it federal crime with say 15 years no parole. That us mandatory 15 added on to whatever crime if they commit one with the gun.

Then we can talk about knowing selling or giving a gun to a "prohibited person ". Say the same federal of 15 years for 1 gun then 25 to life if it was mutable guns.

 

[spamking]

And how is one supposed to know if someone is a "prohibited possessor" without a background check? The honor system?

I expected this to get asked . . .

I can only speak for how things are handled in Oklahoma . . . current state law allows for anyone with a current concealed carry permit to use that instead of a BGC. Our permit information is added to the 4473 that documents the sale with an FFL and we file it away. Selling privately can work much the same way. If the buyer has a permit they're good to go. If they refuse to show it the seller can walk away.

The honor system is all any type of sale has in reality. FFLs can refuse a sale at any time. But sketchy sales do happen with an FFL as well. Straw purchasers complete the 4473 on behalf of a prohibited possessor. I'm sure many don't care and sell to anyone and everyone, but there are private sales that happen between acquaintances and people known to each other. Every private sale does not involve a criminal making a purchase.

 

[panamaican]

I understand that. I was responding directly to a comment from @LangfordBarrow that mentioned finding a lost car or a lost gun you should be able to track down the owner.



Stolen firearms and straw purchases are related but separate issues. You can't necessarily address one and also address the other.



Manufacturers are required to keep a record of firearms they produce with their serial numbers now. They track them in their acquisition and disposition books when sold to a distributor and the distributor does the same when sold to an FFL. We have to keep our A&D book up-to-date with this same information when the firearm is transferred. The FBI traces the firearm using this information already during their investigations.



If an owner sells something privately that isn't against local or federal law they're already being responsible. I believe 20 states currently have a state law in place requiring all private sales to go through an FFL for the BGC and to document the sale.



People who buy several firearms but never seem to keep them can be a problem. That's what got the Malinowski dude in trouble. But not every one of them is buying and then selling to a felon or other prohibited possessor. I agree that habitual straw purchasers need to be addressed.



There are plenty of responsible gun owners who do more than our fair share of "taking responsibility". I don't know that there is much more we can do that will please those who seem to only want to implement more requirements and control.

Maybe I misunderstand the registration portion. I know firearms are individually serialized. I was unaware that those serial numbers are registered with the federal government at the time of production and/or initial distribution. I always thought those records were privately held (with certain exceptions for specific product types). Accessible via request or warrant but not automatically registered at the time of production. Do I have that detail wrong?

It appears to me that you're talking about what FFLs are doing but the article seemed to be about the actions of unlicensed dealers. I guess my focus was more about that moment in time where the firearm transfers ownership from a licensed dealer to an unlicensed dealer who then facilitates an objectionable sale.

The licensed dealer certainly has his records and should be able to establish when and to whom he sold the gun but once we hit unlicensed dealers, doesn't the paperwork portion of this break down? To the best of my knowledge, not everyone who sells firearms are required to become FFLs, right? It's more about if the dealer is repeatedly engaged in the buying and selling but not necessarily people who might buy one gun here and there and maybe sell that gun a year or 2 later?

 

[LangfordBarrow]

"Fast and Furious" operation, POtuS's AG Holder allegedly provided thousands of fully automatic weapons to criminals with no repercussions at all, even after being used in murdering Border Patrol agents.

And you really think those are the same guns?

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Canada has had registration for handguns, and short barrelled rifles for decades. In the nineties they expanded the registration to include long guns. They estimated the cost would be about 1 million dollars, ended up costing over 2 billion. now extrapolate that for American population and gun ownership.

Hold individuals responsible and prosecute where appropriate.

That seems like an outrageous figure but if it costs that much it's something to consider.

 

[Belaya Smert]

Think of the numbers if we didn’t choose to dismantle Operation Thor under Biden’s Leadership.

 

[panamaican]

And you really think those are the same guns?

Even if they were, it would add credibility to why they did it. They did it to get a better sense of how illegal guns were working their way through the hands of dealers into criminals and ultimately committing violence against Americans. Sounds like they've tracked the guns and how they're getting here and now they have to decide what to do with that information.

 

[spamking]

Maybe I misunderstand the registration portion. I know firearms are individually serialized. I was unaware that those serial numbers are registered with the federal government at the time of production and/or initial distribution. I always thought those records were privately held (with certain exceptions for specific product types). Accessible via request or warrant but not automatically registered at the time of production. Do I have that detail wrong?

I don't know if an 07 FFL has to share production records directly with the government unless they're asked to do so as part of a trace.

It appears to me that you're talking about what FFLs are doing but the article seemed to be about the actions of unlicensed dealers. I guess my focus was more about that moment in time where the firearm transfers ownership from a licensed dealer to an unlicensed dealer who then facilitates an objectionable sale.

The licensed dealer certainly has his records and should be able to establish when and to whom he sold the gun but once we hit unlicensed dealers, doesn't the paperwork portion of this break down? To the best of my knowledge, not everyone who sells firearms are required to become FFLs, right? It's more about if the dealer is repeatedly engaged in the buying and selling but not necessarily people who might buy one gun here and there and maybe sell that gun a year or 2 later?

Yes, I'm discussing things from both an FFL and occasional private seller perspective.

The ATF is trying to crack down on who is or is not a "dealer". But yes, folks can sell or trade privately in many states without a license.

In my opinion, anyone who makes a profit from selling more than a handful of firearms or specifically sets up a gun show needs to get an FFL.

 

[Gutter Chris]

Sounds like some common sense laws could really help here with stopping violent crime and tracking criminals. I'm sure the law and order crowd will be all for it!!

I've got three guns and have no problem being required to disclose who I sell them to should I ever sell them. No different than selling a car in my opinion.

I'm with ya

But I gotta nitpick the term common sense gun laws as it really means different things to different people. And it's hard to know exactly what people mean when they say it. To a lot of people it means model restrictions, mag restrictions and carry restrictions which I'm not a real big fan of

I'm not a big fan of a data base

But I'm also not a big fan of selling weapons with no background check to whoever.

I feel like it would be a good thing if the second ammendment crowd could re write the nfa. Less restrictions here few more there and see if we can make things better for everyone.

But my idea of common sense gun laws is probably very different than a lot of people's.

 

[nonoob]

And you really think those are the same guns?

LB, the gubmint even said they were. ZERO tracking on the truckload of Fully Automatic Weapons GIVEN away from the POtuS attorney general.

 

[irish_thug]

I'm with ya

But I gotta nitpick the term common sense gun laws as it really means different things to different people. And it's hard to know exactly what people mean when they say it. To a lot of people it means model restrictions, mag restrictions and carry restrictions which I'm not a real big fan of

I'm not a big fan of a data base

But I'm also not a big fan of selling weapons with no background check to whoever.

I feel like it would be a good thing if the second ammendment crowd could re write the nfa. Less restrictions here few more there and see if we can make things better for everyone.

But my idea of common sense gun laws is probably very different than a lot of people's.

Don't follow our example. They are common sense to a lot of people.

 

[spamking]

But I'm also not a big fan of selling weapons with no background check to whoever.

An easy fix for this would very likely be something that added a designation to a driver's license or other permit that designated us as legally able to purchase. Anyone selling privately or buying from an FFL shows the ID and designation to facilitate the purchase. Documenting it would be up to the individuals (private sales/bills of sale).

 

[NickNick]

An easy fix for this would very likely be something that added a designation to a driver's license or other permit that designated us as legally able to purchase. Anyone selling privately or buying from an FFL shows the ID and designation to facilitate the purchase. Documenting it would be up to the individuals (private sales/bills of sale).

Yeah but what happens if someone with this designation has something occur after they obtain the license? I guess it would based on how often that expires or if the system would allow for someones status to be immediately flagged or revoked.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

I lost all my guns recently in a boating accident.

 

[Dalarna3]

Seems low, honestly.

 

[panamaican]

I don't know if an 07 FFL has to share production records directly with the government unless they're asked to do so as part of a trace.



Yes, I'm discussing things from both an FFL and occasional private seller perspective.

The ATF is trying to crack down on who is or is not a "dealer". But yes, folks can sell or trade privately in many states without a license.

In my opinion, anyone who makes a profit from selling more than a handful of firearms or specifically sets up a gun show needs to get an FFL.

Ok, I'm discussing the entirety of the dealer dynamic. If manufacturers have to record their product serial numbers from the moment of manufacture then we have a baseline from which to initiate the search. Additionally, since unlicensed dealers are where we run into most of these problems, attaching liability to the last known purchaser puts the onus on the dealer, licensed or not, to keep records of his/her sales.

Additionally, knowing that liability attaches to the last known purchaser dissuades straw buyers since liability would attach to them if they're not recording their subsequent sales. Legit unlicensed dealers who had guns stolen from them can report said theft and the thief will also get a stolen gun charge. An illegimate theft would incentivize the thief to turn on the straw buyer as a bargaining chip to reduce their own sentence or to avoid picking up another felony.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

Seems low, honestly.

that was my first reaction.

 

[Lucas1980]

that was my first reaction.

That does seem really low indeed...considering there are over 340 million guns plus owned by people.

 

[irish_thug]

An easy fix for this would very likely be something that added a designation to a driver's license or other permit that designated us as legally able to purchase. Anyone selling privately or buying from an FFL shows the ID and designation to facilitate the purchase. Documenting it would be up to the individuals (private sales/bills of sale).

I like this. I hate having to carry a second form of ID, and god damn does the serial number wear off easily.

 

[spamking]

I like this. I hate having to carry a second form of ID, and god damn does the serial number wear off easily.

I'm just happy Oklahoma allows a carry permit to be used instead of submitting the buyer info to NICs for a BGC. I felt this would flow nicely into an endorsement on a DL or something.