Felipe Pena tests positive for testosterone.

[JustTheTip]

The idea that we should be outraged or upset by PEDs because its 'cheating' falls flat when you remember many people don't care much for the reaping the knee rule either, or actually get upset by cheesy victories by advantage/stall.
Rules are rules, but that doesn't dictate how people feel about the actual action or behaviour.
Cheesing an advantage is legal, but it pisses some people off.
Using PEDs is illegal, but some people don't really care or even expect it.
Is normal.

Comparing reaping to using Steroids? Ok...I've heard it all..

 

[Zankou]

Its cheating so its bad, but its not really that bad, roids has zero effect on ablity, it allows you to recover faster from your training. Nothing else ( besides anger and maybe a broken pee pee)

Ether way its ridiculous that we still consider it cheating. The only drugs that should be illegal is if it numbs pain.

.... yep, that's why roids don't help people hit home runs ('it was just for recovery'), and they don't help people sprint faster. They just help recovery, in no way do they increase your athletic ability. Also, men are not superior athletes to women. It's all technique and will. Nothing physical about it, nothing that a needle does.

I agree it's less problematic in grappling than it is in other contexts, but the constant refrain that steroids don't make you a better athlete is ludicrous, as if TRT Vitor was just a matter of recovery.

 

[JustTheTip]

You have no way to know this unless you follow them around 24/7 and never let them out of your sight. The testing they do is a joke. Its once a year and everyone knows when it will be. Its an intelligence test, that is all.

I'm not around them 24-7 but i'd bet my mortgage they haven't used.Most of them don't even workout that hard off the mat. I've played sports at a high level and know about a dozen pro athletes and believe that steroid usage is really overblown. I do know roiders and most of them simply aren't that good at their chosen sport.I think guys that aren't that good really point to steroids to inject an excuse/reason why they aren't on the level they want to be.Its easy to point to the "steroid boogeyman". How many BJJ practitioners are coming up dirty? People seem to believe that every MMA fighter is on roids when maybe only 5% has been busted.

 

[dmwalking]

Where does the idea that everyone is on PEDs come from? I know a few guys that have placed at Worlds at all belts and none of them are Roiding. Some people are just good athletes naturally.

Name the black belts that you know if you don't mind.

 

[LaBrian]

I'm not around them 24-7 but i'd bet my mortgage they haven't used.Most of them don't even workout that hard off the mat. I've played sports at a high level and know about a dozen pro athletes and believe that steroid usage is really overblown. I do know roiders and most of them simply aren't that good at their chosen sport.I think guys that aren't that good really point to steroids to inject an excuse/reason why they aren't on the level they want to be.Its easy to point to the "steroid boogeyman". How many BJJ practitioners are coming up dirty? People seem to believe that every MMA fighter is on roids when maybe only 5% has been busted.

The point is that there is absolutely no way to know given the current testing regimen. All the anecdotal stuff you mention is meaningless.

 

[the heed]

I do know roiders and most of them simply aren't that good at their chosen sport.I think guys that aren't that good really point to steroids to inject an excuse/reason why they aren't on the level they want to be.

Alex Rodriguez, Roger Clemens Miguel Tejada, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Manny Ramierz, Jose Canseco, Jason Giambi, David Ortiz, Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Shawn Merriman, Bill Romanowski, LaRon Landry, Haloti Ngata, Wes Welker, Von Miller.. the list goes on and on.

these guys weren't just good at that sport, they were considered as top tier pro athletes at their respective sport.

And any athletes in a pro organization are way better than just being "good". They are the cream of the crop. That's why they get paid and there are plenty who do roids. Do I think it's 50% like Canseco claimed? No. But it's a lot more than you think.

 

[thugpoet]

.... yep, that's why roids don't help people hit home runs ('it was just for recovery'), and they don't help people sprint faster. They just help recovery, in no way do they increase your athletic ability. Also, men are not superior athletes to women. It's all technique and will. Nothing physical about it, nothing that a needle does.

I agree it's less problematic in grappling than it is in other contexts, but the constant refrain that steroids don't make you a better athlete is ludicrous, as if TRT Vitor was just a matter of recovery.

It doesn't help hit home runs, it allows you to train more often to hit home runs.

Roids isn't some magic pill that if you take it I will increase your bench by 200 pounds with no work.

Roids help with recovery so you can perform better for longer, but if you font apply that to your training it WONT help.

Hgh I some magic bean that grants you the strength of twenty men.

Most of the benefits are placebo like - I ganrantee if you take them today in three months you still couldn't win bjj worlds.

That's my point.

 

[the heed]

Most of the benefits are placebo like - I ganrantee if you take them today in three months you still couldn't win bjj worlds.

That's my point.

you are right, it won't make you a Mundial Champion. You need to put the time on the mats.
However, if you take even 10 black belt Mundial Champion caliber guys and have two of them dope up while they are training, the ones who are doping up are going to have a way higher chance of winning because they can train more and at a higher intensity. Which in turn, makes them faster, stronger and their technique will get better because they can drill them more at a higher pace.

That's the point that people are making.

 

[thugpoet]

you are right, it won't make you a Mundial Champion. You need to put the time on the mats.
However, if you take even 10 black belt Mundial Champion caliber guys and have two of them dope up while they are training, the ones who are doping up are going to have a way higher chance of winning because they can train more and at a higher intensity. Which in turn, makes them faster, stronger and their technique will get better because they can drill them more at a higher pace.

That's the point that people are making.

So why doesn't everyone dope? Healthier fights, higher intensity, more aggression? Seems like a no brainer to me.

The ban on roids is as silly as the ban on weed.

 

[magick]

They may not use it specifically for the strength gains but injecting testosterone will dramatically increase your strength and your lean muscle tissue.

On a steroid like testosterone, you are training at a certain level of strength. When you come off your cycle you will notice a huge change. When the next cycle rolls around, I guarantee you the strength gain will be appreciated and sought after.

Oh I completely agree with you. Just the mere use of PEDs will improve your strength and ability to retain lean mass. Steroids are a big fucking deal and will greatly magnify your abilities on all physical levels if you have an elite athlete mentality and train appropriately.

It's just that, afaik, grapplers don't use PEDS for strength gain. They use it so that they can train much harder than ordinarily possible.

 

[magick]

The ban on roids is as silly as the ban on weed.

Maybe.

But as long as PEDs are banned, using them is a failure of integrity.

There are, at heart, two separate issues here.

One is why are PEDs banned to begin with. Another is the ethics behind using banned substances.

The ethics question should be a no-brainer for the most part. It's banned. Don't use them. If you are using them, then you're getting a clear advantage over anyone who isn't using them. If every elite athlete is using them, then I think it's a clear sign that their ethics and moral integrity is a bit off.

The banned question is separate matter entirely. But I don't think you should be getting the two issues mixed up.

P.S.- There are research that weed is not exactly neutral for you.

 

[the heed]

So why doesn't everyone dope? Healthier fights, higher intensity, more aggression? Seems like a no brainer to me.

The ban on roids is as silly as the ban on weed.

Because we don't know the exact long term side effects. Not enough study has been done to know the exact down side. There are people who point out to some studies on how it can pummel your liver and destroy your heart.

There are some legitimate usage for steroids, such as for AIDS patients. It has shown to have some real positive effects for them. Like I said, we don't know what exactly happens due to the lack of study.

Why don't everyone dope? Because it is illegal. Without prescription, it is illegal for you to purchase and be in possession. And in this case IBJFF will ban Pena for him popping for roids. Doesn't matter what we think should be legal.

I also think it's silly as the ban on weed. However, there are rules within an organization you compete for. Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean the organization will change their mind. It doesn't matter what you think. Only matters what the organization will enforce. If you don't like the rules, don't compete in an IBJFF event. It's actually that simple.

There are people who are competing within the rules. And not doping is one of them.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

Wow i didnt expect to see that munch people that doesnt care about PED.
That make me sad...

Cheating is cheating, no you cant be hit in grappling, but for fuck sake, just think about people who puts hundreds of hours of 'clean' trainning and lost to a cheater...

 

[Zankou]

It doesn't help hit home runs, it allows you to train more often to hit home runs.

Roids isn't some magic pill that if you take it I will increase your bench by 200 pounds with no work.

Roids help with recovery so you can perform better for longer, but if you font apply that to your training it WONT help.

Hgh I some magic bean that grants you the strength of twenty men.

Most of the benefits are placebo like - I ganrantee if you take them today in three months you still couldn't win bjj worlds.

That's my point.

Your point is filled with errors. To say I couldn't win BJJ worlds in three months is true, but neither could a six year old girl who was given roids. The question is whether they impart a discernible athletic advantage in power/speed. The idea that McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, did not get any physical athletic advantage that helped them hit more home runs ... it was just better recovery, no athletic edge ... is so spectacularly and willfuly delusional I can only marvel at the will it takes to believe it.

No, I myself can't break the MLB home run record by taking steroids. Yes, many MLB players could get an enormous power advantage by taking them, which is why they were able to so easily obliterate the record.

Nobody in the history of mankind has ever thought that steroids are a magic pill that turns a crippled six year old girl into a contender for HW boxing champion, no training required. But in athletic endeavors where success and failure are determined by millimeters, seconds, and ounces, between two closely-matched players, roids are a colossal advantage to tip the odds in your favor. It doesn't mean you won't need to train. Lance Armstrong trained like a goddamned demon, and he had immense natural talent. So did everybody else in the peloton. But the reason Lance was always on the podium in the yellow jersey at the end of the day, instead of the other guy, is that he pushed the needle harder. Which is pretty fucking lame, when it comes to how athletic contests are decided, no matter how anybody wants to justify it.

 

[Zankou]

Btw, the point gets even more farcical when we turn to women's combat sports, where we are again lectured about 'recovery time' and 'not a magic pill' as women filled with Test are beating the shit out of natural contenders. ZOMG, it's almost as though men have a biological competitive advantage over women, somebody stop the presses, a revelation has come down.

Womens' sports are ruined by the unrestricted use of drugs, because it just becomes a question of which women are willing to dose heaviest on pharmaceuticals and make themselves as masculine as possible in order to win. The more money and glory are on the line, the more incentive to dose yourself into a man. This sucks for women who want to compete, but would prefer not to transform into a man in order to have a chance at winning.

 

[Clerouchoi]

I'm not going to discuss the morality of it but I feel that some actual scientific literature would help here. Obviously steroids don't have mystical effects but they do a lot of things which are pretty beneficial to BJJ competitors.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101

Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [

 

[rmongler]

personally I can easily see the arguments that PED use will eventually become common place.


how? well, mainly because its a lot easier to make anabolics than it is to make nootropics.

if everyone is using gear, somatic talents wont count so far, and things will tend to swing the way more to the guys with more psychological and cerebral talents.

 

[dmwalking]

Yeah. I'm not of the belief that everyone should dope. There are side effects that affect long term health. In fact, I wish nobody doped and just accepted nature. But again, since so many other do it, I don't blame anyone for it. I believe that in their mind, they're not getting a competitive edge. They're leveling the playing field.

Like I said, steroids don't give you beautiful rolling back takes. Ultimately, when you watch Pena, you witness his technique prevail. So why did he take it? My guess is that he just wanted to level the playing field so that he wouldn't end up losing to another roided up guy. But I'm just giving the benefit of the doubt.

Personally, I hope to get on TRT when I'm older. I'm not a competitor and I want to stay healthy as long as possible. So I have no problem with it.

 

[dmwalking]

personally I can easily see the arguments that PED use will eventually become common place.


how? well, mainly because its a lot easier to make anabolics than it is to make nootropics.

if everyone is using gear, somatic talents wont count so far, and things will tend to swing the way more to the guys with more psychological and cerebral talents.

Intersting theory.

 

[Respeezy]

Cant believe some people dont seem to understand that faster and better recovery equals more possible training time which equals better skills.