From Lenin to Che: A Moral Guide to Marxist Revolutionaries

Ummmm...

Che was a murderer and rapist. He personally executed a teenage boy he SUSPECTED of being an "anti-revolutionary informant".



Nelson Mandela actually targeted a shopping mall for a bombing just two days before Christmas. This was set with the intention of maxim possible innocent civilian casualties. His wife also executed a teenage boy suspected of being some kind of informant. A man can be judged by the company they keep.



If these are considered "the good ones", it should be pretty obvious why sane, rational people reject communism.
 
A far more apt comparison to Cuba than the United States, yeah? How about the Dominican Republic instead? How about fucking Honduras?

EDIT: I actually do compare Cuba and the Dominican Republic at the bottom of the post if you'd like some crow.



lol
Haha, this is great. I love the "I was young once" pot shot deflection. You've truly achieved a new standard of dumb shit.

Do you believe you can reconcile your deflection with the fact that socialists are wildly, almost incalculably, overrepresented, even almost remotely concentrated, in the highest points of academia?

Anyways, recounting historical figures and trying to offer delineation on their differences does not equate to some in-your-face "communism is cool" diatribe: morons like you just take it that way when it offers any nuance to your reductive black-and-white worldview.



You see, when you start your conversation with such a ludicrous statement, you have nowhere else to go. If you think Castro's government is in any way, shape, or form even close to, let alone worse than, Batista's, then you're not worth engaging.



Suspending disbelief, I am sorry to hear that. It doesn't seem to be consistent (at all) with the testimony of even severely maligned political prisoners, nor with documented investigative reports-- summary executions within the military tribunal were documented during the revolution and scant reports of American-like solitary confinement and prison beatings have trickled in-- but again I'll suspend disbelief of the fact that your grandfather was just the exception and that darker side of Cuban imprisonment just somehow never made it to the papers (probably because the country is so popular in the West).

Regarding this first-world privilege bullshit (which is particularly hilarious given the history of Central and South American socialism fighting against the systemic violence inflicted by first-world economies and their flippant, careless bliss), I grew up in a place with much, much higher rates of violence than Cuba and my long-time girlfriend of many years emigrated from Cuba. Furthermore, I've traveled and seen abject poverty in even nearby countries like the Dominican Republic where I helped install piping to grant access to dirty shit water to communities that couldn't even get a glass of water. You can fuck off with your narrow delusions of wisdom.




Yeah...

Life Expectancy:
Cuba: 79.4 years
DR: 73.5 years

Literacy rate:
Cuba: 99.8%
DR: 91.1%

Educational Attainment:
Cuba: 98% primary
DR: 63% primary

Poverty rate:
Cuba: 5%
DR: 35%




I'm not sure why this devolved into me unnecessarily defending Cuba, however simple it may be given relative standards, other than that it's easier than actually civilly discussing the topic, whether from an ideological or historical standpoint.
{<jordan}

5% poverty rate, eh? Not that stats provided by the Cuban gov't are at all reflective of what the actual citizens report, but it would shit on their point and yours if they were true. Such high rates of literacy and educational attainment, and they still have monthly incomes equivalent to me finding change in my couch cushions. They also have no infant mortality, cause of course when a baby dies, it's just not counted as a person.

Wages in Cuba averaged just 494.4 pesos ($18.66) monthly from 2008 to 2015.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/cuba/article89133407.html

Cubans make an average of $18 a month, and a passport will cost the average Cuban five months' salary, says Ray Walser, a senior policy analyst specializing in Latin America at the Heritage Foundation

Yeah, they're really living the dream there. Venezuela's kicking ass too.

Also, lol at "highest points of academia". You mean your genderqueer studies professors and "diversity officers"? Maybe stroll down to the engineering and hard science departments, or anyone who teaches something functional, and poll them. Better yet, take a trip to Miami and ask a few of the Cubans who actually lived there and had to escape the place about how awesome the Cuban system is.
 
trotsky is the kind of poster that you read over their reply and decide to just walk away from the conversation, nothing positive will come out of it
 
I see that Marxism is quite aggressively misunderstood here, with some so stupid as to believe social democracy = communism = state capitalism. Since using historical figures as reference points for arguments is an argumentative favorite here as well, I figure that one of the most helpful starting points for understanding the extremely complex and often misunderstood intersections of Marxism, Leninism, etc. is to provide a brief overview of its most famous---purported--representatives.

Of course, this is not comprehensive and only deals with revolutionaries, not thinkers, academics, or intellectuals, which number in the thousands. Also, it is not comprehensive of even that subset. Truthfully, I myself am not particularly extreme, despite my username: I consider myself a democratic socialist, just left of social democratic capitalists like Bernie Sanders, so I hope to offer a fairly even handed assessment of some of the most famous Marxist names, many of whom I've spent several years learning about. To help, I'm going to separate the persons into three categories:

(A) The Good Guys
(B) The "It's Complicated" Guys
(C) The Bad Guys

(A) The Good Guys



1. Ernesto "Che" Guevara
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Considered incorruptible by his comrades, Che was a humanitarian first and a revolutionary second. Although an avowed Marxist and termed by his contemporaries as the only real "communist" of his generation of Latin American revolutionaries, Guevara was many degrees removed from communist typology that sprouted from Russia decades earlier. Che, a man who left his beloved wife and children and life as an affluent physician in Argentina to train in the South American wilderness and foment uprisings in impoverished rural communities in Africa, was actually removed from power in Cuba after he was vocally critical of the USSR as not doing enough to help the third world and instead focusing on militarization and the enrichment of the Russian bureaucracy. Truthfully, Che was less interested in establishment of the transitional pre-Communist state and the reaping of its bureaucratic benefits than he was breaking the chains of imperialism. After breaking paths with Fidel Castro, Guevara went to Bolivia to continue the revolution. Expecting assistance from the Bolivian Communist Party, Guevara was betrayed by the party and its leader Mario Monje and captured by Bolivian forces with the help of the American CIA and Nazi war criminal Klaus "the Butcher of Lyon" Barbie. Che, before his likeness became a symbol of nonconformity, had a mythology of selflessness and, together with the second person on this list, exceptional purity.


2. Thomas Sankara

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Like Che Guevara, Sankara's main focus was anti-imperialism. Once he rose to power in an enormously popular revolution, Sankara began implementing one of the most ambitious and meticulously focused systems of reform. Sankara was a passionate advocate of African self-reliance, independence, and individual freedom from labor debt. Besides rebuffing imperialism by rejecting foreign aid and refusing to acknowledge odious debt, Sankara also instituted many health, environmental, and social reforms including the outlawing of genital mutilation, polygamy, and forced marriage, the appointing women to political office, and encouraging women's participation in the workforce. After an extremely successful and popular four years in office, Sankara was assassinated in a coup d'état led by his former officer Blaise Compaore. Compaore swiftly reversed Sankara's reforms, arrested his supporters, and attempted to erase him from history.


3. Nelson Mandela

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Despite being most famously known in the West as being anti-racist and an opponent of South African Apartheid, Mandela was an avid, albeit a practical, Marxist. While Mandela publicly lauded the prospect of a classless society and the complete abolition of capitalism, he advocated for more measured and diplomatic implementation, specifically that of "scientific socialism." Unsurprisingly, after being imprisoned for twenty years and subsequently elected to presidential office, he settled for more privatization and capitalistic policies, necessary with the concurrent downfall of the USSR. Despite this, his commitment to social and economic justice remained unquestioned and, with his conciliation on economic reforms, he escaped being demonized by Western propaganda in the same way as some of his other comrades.


(B) The "It's Complicated" Guys

4. Vladimir Lenin
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The single most controversial and polarizing figure in Marxist history, Vladimir Lenin has been appraised as anywhere from a patron saint of the working class to the man who first corrupted Marxist ideology. Truthfully, Lenin was brilliant, fierce, and tireless advocate for the working class and against the Russian oligarchs. Before his publication of the famous book The State and Revolution, Lenin was considered a right-wing deviation of the socialist movement: less adherent to the libertarian and anti-authoritarian principles of the rest of the movement and apparently more utilitarian in his usage of the state to gain power. Lenin, however, returned to his authoritarian designs upon rising to power, gutting the organs of worker control and establishing the state as the central mechanism for working class representation. Purportedly, this strategy was in line with establishing Russia as the "holding action" (per Noam Chomsky) before the real revolution could be pressured to take place in Germany: Marxist organizational doctrine held that socialism in underdeveloped nations could not survive capitalist external pressures and that it must first take hold in the most advanced sectors of capitalism, which at that time existed in England and Germany. At that time, Russia lacked economic infrastructure and would be susceptible to being easily quashed by capitalist influences if it went through transformative processes without first industrializing. Lenin did, however, maintain loyalty to and maintenance of trade unions and independent power within the working class. Lenin, additionally, was gravely fearful of the susceptibility of the state capitalist system (a term he first coined and which could now apply to China) to bureacracy and tyranny and, in the years before his death, tried passionately to foreclose Joseph Stalin's rise to power over the machinery of the state. However, the German leftists were ultimately fractionalized and suppressed, largely by the organizational basis that later formed the Nazi Party, and Joseph Stalin did rise to power.


5. Leon Trotsky
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Leon Trotsky is known as much for his dissent and criticism of Stalinism as he is for his tangible contributions to the Bolshevik revolution. Trotsky was a traditional left-libertarian socialist, critical of Lenin's reactionary and centralized organizational designs. However, the two later resolved their differences and began working together again, largely through Lenin's strategic marginalization of Trotsky's influence in the party. Trotsky was considered by Lenin to be overly idealistic and too focused on administration. Truthfully, Trotsky was unique in this way: he was not a career revolutionary, he was an administrator, an underwriter. Although, he did flash colors of opportunism and willingness to sacrifice his ideals, most notably in his clashes with Russian soviets. Ultimately, after Lenin's decline in health and eventual death, Trotsky was boxed out from the state capitalist bureaucracy from his party rival Joseph Stalin. He would later seek exile in Mexico and famously write The Revolution Betrayed, signally both his admiration for the incredible economic rise of the USSR and his disdain for Stalin's authoritarianism, bureaucratic waste, and betrayal of Bolshevik ideals. In 1940, Stalin sent assassins to Mexico and Trotsky was killed with an ice pick.

6. Hugo Chavez - good guy, but incompetent

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Hugo Chavez is a man with many sympathizers, mostly due to his virtuous intentions, his dedication to the Venezuelan lower classes, and the incredible resistance he faced at the hands of the United States and of private capital. However, ultimately, his policies were ineffectual and toothless in the long-term. Chavez, born to a poor working class family, began his career as a soldier in the Venezuelan military. Chavez later founded the Bolivarian movement, having become disgusted with the corruption and fraud perpetrated by then president Carlos Perez. After being imprisoned for an attempted coup, Chavez was later released and elected president. While inequality sharply declined and most indicators of quality of living such as literacy, poverty, and life expectancy improved during his tenure, a failed (and decisively unpopular) coup attempt in 2002 changed the trajectory of Chavez's rule. Chavez, after first tending towards liberalizing the economy towards more market-friendly measures, expanded nationalization and clamped down on human rights so as to mute dissent. One way to insulate himself from sabotage was to appoint followers to positions of great importance. Ultimately, however, the frankly incompetent administrative and economic color began to show, but did not fully express itself until some years after Chavez's death. When oil prices plummeted thereafter, it became obvious that Chavez's later reforms tied to heavily Venezuela's economic prosperity to the value of its oil exports. Sadly, at least for the immediate future, this long-term economic short-coming will be his legacy.


7. Fidel Castro - competent, but power hungry
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Even more than Chavez, more than Guevara, Castro's legacy might reflect his fearless opposition to neoliberalism and international economic exploitation. While basically any of Castro's early cohorts will tell you that Fidel wasn't a Communist and was barely even a Marxist, his regard for the working class was as Marxist in sentiment as that of any revolutionary before or after. The propriety of Castro's 26th of July Movement against the brutal and corrupt dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista was as unquestionable as it was fearless. Castro not being killed in his first attack on the heavily armed Moncada Barracks, using only a handful of men, was every bit as incredible as his not being cornered in Eastern Cuba when the movement reformed after his release from prison. After mounting an unlikely victory over a politically worn-out Batista, Castro became an international celebrity, even in the United States. However, his opposition to United States imperialism and economic demands of Cuba ultimately triggered the United States government funding counterrevolutionary invasions and multiple (and some very comical) assassination attempts. This tension ultimately drove Castro into agreement with the Soviet Union and he thereafter became a maligned Cold War figure in American culture. In retrospect, Castro was somewhat similar to Chavez. However, he was both a more capable head of state and a more swift authoritarian. While he undoubtedly improved the lives of the average Cuban citizen, provided basic accommodations to Cuba's poor, and established Cuba as a world leader in medicine, his governance was always overshadowed by the economic blockade imposed by the United States and by his, though popularly supported, indefensibly authoritarian imprisonment and execution of political dissenters early in his reign.


8. Muammar Gaddafi

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Muammar Gaddafi's historical legacy may sadly be the most distorted and misrepresented of any on this list. Ultimately, it cannot be argued that his influence on Libyan living was not positive. During his reign, the country thrived in comparison to its regional neighbors, achieving high marks in most quality of living standards, drastically improving health and literacy. However, alongside his leadership acumen came great hubris and bravado: he combined the silly showmanship of Chavez, the intense focus and egotism of Lenin, and the attire of Liberace. He was also passionately pan-African and sought the economic sovereignty of the African continent. He also issued disparate treatment for ethnic minorities in Libya and entertained (and possibly even funded) Islamic terrorism. Despite seeming to be increasingly cozy with Western politicians such as Hillary Clinton and David Cameron in establishing international investment agreements, Gaddafi was ultimately toppled by NATO-backed rebels in 2011. Renderings of Gaddafi have seen some rejuvenation, however, given the horrid aftermath in Libya.



(C) The Bad Guys

9. Mao Zedong

While Mao is still fairly well regarded by some few Western Marxists and by Chinese citizens, I personally find little of value in his philosophy or in the reality of his rise to power. Purporting himself to ostensibly be a Trotskyist, Mao oversaw violent suppression of dissent, massive upheaval of Chinese cultural tradition, and drastic, unmeasured economic reforms. While, like Stalin's death count, it is difficult to delineate how many killed from famine during his reign were attributable to his policies, it is undeniable that his obtuse and impersonal reforms did no favors. While Mao is credited for uniting China from civil war, industrializing and modernizing its economy, and improving its ability to compete in the international market, his successes must be overshadowed by not only the brutality he inflicted upon his people, nor the apparent glee with which he did so, but the fact that he (and I must feign ignorance with regard to whether this may be of cultural tendency) placed almost no value on individual human life: completely diametrical to the ideas of Marx. Ultimately, Mao allowed China to position itself as a world power, albeit on the back of many millions of civilian deaths, but ultimately merely provided the infrastructure for efforts towards liberalization provided by his successors.


10. Joseph Stalin

The worst of the bunch, Stalin was not simply regardless of human life like Mao. He was outright callous and doubled down on Mao's anti-intellectualism and refusal to engage in discussion and compromise. An opportunist and a talented politician, Stalin rose the ranks of the Bolsheviks. Although his dispositions were clearly authoritarian and politically right of the party's, he tempered such appearances and was vitally useful to Lenin in maneuvering internal party disagreements. But by the time that Lenin realized what a monster Stalin could become, preventing his succession was no longer possible. While Pink Tide revolutionaries and even other Eastern Marxists held regard for their people, Stalin seemed to only care for the Russian people to the extent that it was utilitarian. Certainly, the incredible gains initiated by Lenin were continued and Stalin did provide basic accommodations to Russian citizens, but Stalin did not regard the centralization of power or exercise of authoritarian strength as merely mediative as did Lenin. Stalin violently and systematically conducted political purges and, like Mao, expanded his cult of personality directly against the tenets of Marxism. Likewise, he consolidated state power towards bona fide institution of state capitalism and stripped the workers and the peasantry of autonomy and political voice. Ultimately, like Mao, Stalin's appreciators are mostly restricted to party advocates and Russian/Chinese nationalists who believe the utility of his actions outweighed the comparatively smaller death toll and crackdown on human rights. Ultimately, from a doctrinal perspective, Stalin should be remembered for extending Lenin's temporary suspension of socialist governance and, at least for the time being, cementing a Western and Eastern misunderstanding of what socialism actually is.​

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Yeah...

Life Expectancy:
Cuba: 79.4 years
DR: 73.5 years

Literacy rate:
Cuba: 99.8%
DR: 91.1%

Educational Attainment:
Cuba: 98% primary
DR: 63% primary

Poverty rate:
Cuba: 5%
DR: 35%




I'm not sure why this devolved into me unnecessarily defending Cuba, however simple it may be given relative standards, other than that it's easier than actually civilly discussing the topic, whether from an ideological or historical standpoint.
I'm not saying DR is better than Cuba. I'm saying it's much better than Haiti which is the most similar country to it. Any inputs on the reason for that?
 
From Lenin to Che... a parade of death and famine in the name of the people.
Thanks god we had Franco in Spain, yes, first one to defeat communism....

27-Francisco-Franco-AFP-Getty.jpg
 
Yeah, none of those guys is a remotely good guy.
The creation of Marxism and involvement in communism and establishing it in Russia are the worst things JEW ELITES have ever done.
And we did the holocaust and started WW1 and 2. So it's not easy to be the worst thing.

Fixed
 
I had a girlfriend from Manzanillo, Cuba, many years ago. She had to flee to Spain. She would laugh in your face for all the nonsense you spilled through this shitty thread.
Move to Cuba, Einstein, or NK, and report back to us on how the people's revolution is working
 
Holy shit, your account is still going? If you're going to call it stupid to equate socialism with communism, probably leave out the guy who outright said "the goal of socialism is communism", and the guy with a massive body count in the name of a country founded by murderers that people tried to escape on rafts made of trash.

I don't know what's dumber: Calling communism "socialism" or calling taxation with representation "socialism".

I just know that the vast majority of the dummies who do both are Trump supporters.
 
I had a girlfriend from Manzanillo, Cuba, many years ago. She had to flee to Spain. She would laugh in your face for all the nonsense you spilled through this shitty thread.
Move to Cuba, Einstein, or NK, and report back to us on how the people's revolution is working

A lot of people had to flee because they lost their station in life. Of course they will say bad things.

Now I am not saying Castro turned Cuba in paradise, but because a few or even many people fled does not mean he did not either. It is all anecdotal.
 
Why is it that I'm not in poverty and almost all Cubans are, and why is America so much richer that people escape and wash ashore in Miami and Key West on bags of trash? Would love to hear this.

Here is a better comparison.

Two tiny island nations in the Caribbean. Cuba and Haiti.

One is socialist, the other capitalist.

Which nation is ranked 93rd in Gross Domestic Income? Which is ranked 171st?
 
Here is a better comparison.

Two tiny island nations in the Caribbean. Cuba and Haiti.

One is socialist, the other capitalist.

Which nation is ranked 93rd in Gross Domestic Income? Which is ranked 171st?

I don't know what's dumber: Calling communism "socialism" or calling taxation with representation "socialism".

I just know that the vast majority of the dummies who do both are Trump supporters.

Well you apparently can't read, and apparently think Bernie Sanders is a Trump supporter, so you seem to have trouble knowing a lot of things.

Pointing out communists who sold themselves as socialists is not calling communism socialism.

In trying to make the case for how awesome Cuba has worked out, you felt that picking the poorest Caribbean country would be the best comparison? Why not any out of the majority of Caribbean countries that aren't doing worse? Yeah, Haiti's main problem is that they don't have enough socialism.
 
Well you apparently can't read, and apparently think Bernie Sanders is a Trump supporter, so you seem to have trouble knowing a lot of things.

Has Sanders actually referred to programs like the ACA as "socialism"?

But, regardless, I think I also said that the "vast majority" who misuse the label are Trump supporters. There are non-republicans who have bought into the super-elastic definition of the the term "socialism".

But if we're talking about "socialism", historically, as Marx and Engels outlined it, as the necessary precursor for communism, we're talking about an economic system whereby the state controls the means of production. Period. End stop.

In trying to make the case for how awesome Cuba has worked out, you felt that picking the poorest Caribbean country would be the best comparison? Why not any out of the majority of Caribbean countries that aren't doing worse?

In actuality, none of the comparisons are fair because Cuba is the only one of the Caribbean nations that has been intentionally trade-starved for over 50 years by its neighbor, the world's foremost superpower.
 

What do Marx and Engels have to do with the Jewish elite?
They were both Prussians and born Christians also Marx had some some Jewish blood but he was an anti Semite.
Also not because of their "race" but because they saw no point in workers movement.

Also not sure what the Jewish elite had to do with communist in Russia?
Lenin was smuggled into Russia by German agents. And the whole revolution was supported by Germany.
 
{<jordan}

5% poverty rate, eh? Not that stats provided by the Cuban gov't are at all reflective of what the actual citizens report, but it would shit on their point and yours if they were true. Such high rates of literacy and educational attainment, and they still have monthly incomes equivalent to me finding change in my couch cushions. They also have no infant mortality, cause of course when a baby dies, it's just not counted as a person.


That statistic was from the CIA (our government), you dip shit. The CIA also pegged Cuban unemployment at 2.5%. If the CIA is too libtarded of a source for you, how about the United Nations? In their Economic Development Report in 1997, they pegged the poverty rate at 5.1%. This is a rate adjusted for national wealth, but nevertheless.

If the CIA and UN are both still too biased for you, maybe take a look at The Borgen Project, one of the US's leading nonprofits on poverty research.

Journalists comment that while the young are dissatisfied with Cuba’s current state, older generations remain loyal to Castro ideologies because they recall what life was like before the revolution.

In a country with limited resources and a significantly different political and economic ideology, it would be unreasonable to expect Cuba to ever attempt to lift its entire population to the American middle-class ideal. Operating under this mindset, Cuba has been successful in many ways, in managing to provide for its citizens what other countries in the region cannot.

Or you can keep relying on speculation, anecdote, and GIF's. That works too.

trotsky is the kind of poster that you read over their reply and decide to just walk away from the conversation, nothing positive will come out of it

Cute.

When asked to supplement bald anecdote, you walk away.

I'm not saying DR is better than Cuba. I'm saying it's much better than Haiti which is the most similar country to it. Any inputs on the reason for that?

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to appear as attacking you. I was quoting your aside on DR within the scope of another conversation.

There are several factors, of course, but, more than Cuba's internal economic management, I would say that Cuba's insulation from foreign (mostly private) interests is what prevented it from being affected in the same way as the other two countries. Even though the embargo certainly hurt Cuba, the state affirmatively standing between the scant Cuban resources/capital and the demands of foreign firms has been huge in safeguarding the pre-revolution economic woes. Additionally, Cuba has historically had fewer problems with ethnic fractionalization than those two countries. This has been aided by Cuba's economy and post-revolutionary culture (both with the multiculturalism of the 26th of July Movement and the national concept of being the underdog of sort with regard to the US), but (if I'm not mistaken) Cuba had comparatively little ethnic strife even pre-revolution when it was a huge immigrant hub. I can't speak fully to the source of that. It's admirable given Cuba's historical problems with imperialism. The Cuban people are strong.

I personally was very surprised when I saw how poor the DR was. I had met a Dominican girl in the States before, and she had expressed bitterness about the international expectation that the DR aid Haitian poverty when it too was a very poor country, but I grossly underestimated how bad it was there. While the most striking dearth in Cuba was modern technology, seeing rural Dominicans being so fully disenfranchised from basic accommodations like, as I mentioned earlier, drinking water was really shocking. Definitely a privilege shock of sort.
 
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