Good luck finding a doctor in the future

[Scheme]

AI could replace a lot of doctors, it's been shown in the past with weaker AIs to have a better classification rate. The only thing really slowing it down is doctors not wanting to contribute to them, but with less and less doctors I think that'll change. For things like surgeries or invasive diagnostics however it will be a lot worse. Canada is feeling the effects of this right now, with a huge population surge and without an increase in available doctors.

 

[Samjj]

Lots of tension between Physicians and NPs/PAs.

The latter are less expensive to train and employ. Cheap goods are most often lower quality.

 

[deviake]

Guaranteed to get more quality than you could ever dream of

 

[Scheme]

Holy fuck.

Good luck, guys.

The job of trained medical professionals has been made redundant by Google-Fu...

Artificial Intelligence Versus Clinicians in Disease Diagnosis: Systematic Review

Artificial intelligence (AI) has been extensively used in a range of medical fields to promote therapeutic development. The development of diverse AI techniques has also contributed to early detections, disease diagnoses, and referral management. However, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A total of 9 articles were identified. A convolutional neural network was the commonly applied advanced AI technology. Owing to the variation in medical fields, there is a distinction between individual studies in terms of classification, labeling, training process, dataset size, and algorithm validation of AI. Performance indices reported in articles included diagnostic accuracy, weighted errors, false-positive rate, sensitivity, specificity, and the area under the receiver operating characteristic curve. The results showed that the performance of AI was at par with that of clinicians and exceeded that of clinicians with less experience.

AI already equaled and outperformed in terms of diagnostics with weaker AIs of the past. As AI gets even more powerful and doctors become even less available, it will far exceed clinician diagnostics.

 

[Siver!]

Artificial Intelligence Versus Clinicians in Disease Diagnosis: Systematic Review

Artificial intelligence (AI) has been extensively used in a range of medical fields to promote therapeutic development. The development of diverse AI techniques has also contributed to early detections, disease diagnoses, and referral management. However, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

AI already equaled and outperformed in terms of diagnostics with weaker AIs of the past. As AI gets even more powerful and doctors become even less available, it will far exceed clinician diagnostics.

Terrifying.

I dread to think how many complex diagnoses will be missed without hands on medical practice.

The average internet denizen can't even interpret basic information without disagreeing with the guy sat next to them, confirmation bias in self-diagnosis sounds like an utter nightmare.

Luckily for me, it's not something I see in my future.

 

[DoctorNick]

We are seeing this in the pharmacy world also. I'm still waiting for those stuck in retail hell to massively strike against the big 3.

 

[Boxiana]

Just do what the UK does - don’t train enough doctors yourself despite a clear and obvious need - import them from poorer countries where they obviously have no need for doctors

 

[F1980]

The change in demographics is hurting a lot. We're not getting enough intelligent Chinese, Indian, Europeans, etc.. migrants to cover the massive amount of Latin American migrants pouring in. Someone posted in another thread how dire this situation is as how impossible it is for latins and blacks to pass medical school unless they significantly lower the standards to becoming a doctor, which they already are lowering. That means they have to lower the standards much further

 

[Sweater of AV]

Artificial Intelligence Versus Clinicians in Disease Diagnosis: Systematic Review

Artificial intelligence (AI) has been extensively used in a range of medical fields to promote therapeutic development. The development of diverse AI techniques has also contributed to early detections, disease diagnoses, and referral management. However, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

AI already equaled and outperformed in terms of diagnostics with weaker AIs of the past. As AI gets even more powerful and doctors become even less available, it will far exceed clinician diagnostics.

It's important to be clear about what you're posting. Not surprisingly, the paper says that the main achievement of AI in this context is with respect to image recognition and diagnoses based on images. It is not with respect to general medical diagnoses. They reviewed nine articles that they could find in 20 years. There's a very long way to go before making any sort of general statements.

Also, you might want to post this:

The literature shows that almost every achievement of AI is established based on diagnosis outcomes. However, any assessment of diagnostic outcomes needs to yield meaningful implications. The diagnostic criteria are developed based on long-standing and recursive processes inclusive of real-world practice appraised by clinicians, as summarized in Table 1. Although the recently promising self-learning abilities of AI may lead to additional prospects [22], the viability of such diagnostic processes is inevitably determined by human experts through cumulative clinical experience [23,24]. In other words, clinical experts are the go-to persons informing AI of what the desired predictions are. AI is still incapable of interpreting what it has obtained from data and of providing telling results. Therefore, the final success of AI is conditionally restricted by medical professionals who are the real evaluators of their diagnostic performance. This signifies its artificial nature in a human-dominated medical environment.

Given such a relationship between AI and human users, the applicability of advanced AI and clinical significance cannot be isolated. The development of AI technology itself may provide an encouraging outlook on medicine applications, but an evaluation conducted by medical specialists plays a fundamental role in AI’s continued blooming. In medical applications, AI cannot exist without human engagement because the final diagnoses need to have real-world implications. Patient-oriented medicines specify the essence of patient data in the AI establishment and learning process. Each successful AI, regardless of whether it is database driven or self-learning, needs to eventually improve patients’ health. The tireless learning abilities of AI can complement cognitive fatigue in humans [17] and can substantially improve clinical efficiency. Its outstanding performance, comparable with that of experts, saves huge amounts of time in clinical practice, which, in turn, alleviates the tension in the long-established process of the transition from novice clinician to expert.

AI will be an important tool but to think it's going to somehow replace the diagnoses of doctors is laughable.

 

[PhitePhan]

I've been working in the medical industry for some years now and I can already see a huge trend happening. Since covid a massive amount of doctors have retired and there isn't enough students working to become doctors to fill the gap. Most of the younger physicians are PA's or NP's not MD's. I mean why would you want to spend 10-12 years piling up massive debt to eventually become a doctor when you can start making youtube/tik tok videos at the age of 10 and by the time you're even out of high school you can have a successful career. Our society has successfully prevented an entire nation from wanting to start careers in jobs that we need due to student debt.

I predict within 20 years that you will no longer go to a doctor for yearly check ups and will only go in the most dire situation where you will need to pay out of pocket. Keeping the rich healthier while they continue to diminish the health of the average citizen. Murica tho right?

People should be educated about their own health and how to maintain good health through diet, exercise, and natural interventions whenever possible. Our dependence on doctors and pills is very detrimental and a large part of why so many people are sick (in the US, at least) in the first place.

 

[Oregonmma]

People should be educated about their own health and how to maintain good health through diet, exercise, and natural interventions whenever possible. Our dependence on doctors and pills is very detrimental and a large part of why so many people are sick (in the US, at least) in the first place.

To be fair we've all been indoctrinated to eat shitty foods with tons of chemicals while not being able to afford higher quality ingredients. Most of us never had a chance from the start.

 

[Long Dark Blues]

My PCP just retired and the practice was sold, what was once a mix of MDs and DOs is now NPs and PAs.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Yeah but what's the alternative? Going full commie with free college!!!! Can't have that!!!

 

[Cole train]

Nothing controversial or political about this. Just facts from someone that works in the field.

Oh hey here we are in war room lmao

 

[jefferz]

My PCP just retired and the practice was sold, what was once a mix of MDs and DOs is now NPs and PAs.

That’s been happening across the country for the past couple of years.
Private equity firms are running around buying up all the private practices, and creating monopolies in areas so they can jack up the price on healthcare.

 

[560ti]

Lots of tension between Physicians and NPs/PAs.

The latter are less expensive to train and employ. Cheap goods are most often lower quality.

At least in my area 90% of health problems/concerns a NP and PA are not only more efficient but more personable as well.

Sister cut her hand 2 weeks ago. Went across the street to the PA and he stitched her up on the spot for 99 dollars cash. A MD ? Must be admitted to ER, must have nurse check you over, then they'll see you and do stitches (drawn out process where there sole goal is to bill the insurance for 3 different categories).

Have the Flu ? Go to that same PA for a small fee and he quickly runs the test and then immediately gives you tamiflu on the onsite dispenser. Doctor ? Hopefully there's a same day appointment assuming your already in network (if not it's 3 weeks minimum to see them) and then they turn a small visit into an hour ordeal with no prescriptions on site.

Cheaper isn't necessarily lower quality. My mom just retired doing ICU for over 40 years and loved the nighttime NP way more than any doctor she ever worked. Where way more personable, much more willing to help, and had a better grasp of the actual real day to day needs of the unit.

 

[Scheme]

It's important to be clear about what you're posting. Not surprisingly, the paper says that the main achievement of AI in this context is with respect to image recognition and diagnoses based on images. It is not with respect to general medical diagnoses. They reviewed nine articles that they could find in 20 years. There's a very long way to go before making any sort of general statements.

Also, you might want to post this:

The literature shows that almost every achievement of AI is established based on diagnosis outcomes. However, any assessment of diagnostic outcomes needs to yield meaningful implications. The diagnostic criteria are developed based on long-standing and recursive processes inclusive of real-world practice appraised by clinicians, as summarized in Table 1. Although the recently promising self-learning abilities of AI may lead to additional prospects [22], the viability of such diagnostic processes is inevitably determined by human experts through cumulative clinical experience [23,24]. In other words, clinical experts are the go-to persons informing AI of what the desired predictions are. AI is still incapable of interpreting what it has obtained from data and of providing telling results. Therefore, the final success of AI is conditionally restricted by medical professionals who are the real evaluators of their diagnostic performance. This signifies its artificial nature in a human-dominated medical environment.

Given such a relationship between AI and human users, the applicability of advanced AI and clinical significance cannot be isolated. The development of AI technology itself may provide an encouraging outlook on medicine applications, but an evaluation conducted by medical specialists plays a fundamental role in AI’s continued blooming. In medical applications, AI cannot exist without human engagement because the final diagnoses need to have real-world implications. Patient-oriented medicines specify the essence of patient data in the AI establishment and learning process. Each successful AI, regardless of whether it is database driven or self-learning, needs to eventually improve patients’ health. The tireless learning abilities of AI can complement cognitive fatigue in humans [17] and can substantially improve clinical efficiency. Its outstanding performance, comparable with that of experts, saves huge amounts of time in clinical practice, which, in turn, alleviates the tension in the long-established process of the transition from novice clinician to expert.

AI will be an important tool but to think it's going to somehow replace the diagnoses of doctors is laughable.

AI has already exceeded doctors in terms of diagnostic accuracy and throughput with older models. With newer models, better computational power, more widespread use and ability to analyze infinitely more data sets than humans, the future of basic and even advanced medical diagnoses is going to heavily use AI, if not completely depend on it (it has shown promise in diagnosing unknown diseases far better than humans). Is your contention that AI wont be used to a great extent in these areas?

AI these days can perform language modeling to perform diagnostics. There's no reason to believe that AI wont get better and more specific to the medical industry. ChatGPT a generic AI can already do some diagnosis, imagine what an AI trained specifically for medical purposes can do in the future?

And yes, that paper is a little outdated and a meta-analysis of older AI models. I only posted it as an example of AI already out-performing human diagnosticians in some areas. The blurb you quoted simply says that AI needs to be trained by doctors and can be used to make their jobs much easier.

For example, a recent 2023 study shows that AI has been shown to effectively diagnose heart, liver, lung and skin diseases, as well as breast cancers:

Evaluation of artificial intelligence techniques in disease diagnosis and prediction

A broad range of medical diagnoses is based on analyzing disease images obtained through high-tech digital devices. The application of artificial intelligence (AI) in the assessment of medical images has led to accurate evaluations being performed automatically, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

According to the findings of this research, SVM has the best performance for predicting heart diseases. Supervised DL networks, such as CNN-based models, are widely used due to their high accuracy and fast image recognition, especially for diagnosing in respiratory, lung, skin, and brain diseases which have led to significant results. For breast cancer diagnosis, usually combining KNN with other networks, such as SVM, leads to high accuracy in diagnosis. Therefore, DL and ML, with impressive experimental results in detecting and classifying medical images, significantly impact the success of many diseases discussed in this study. In other words, AI-based methods assist medical systems in diagnosing and predicting conditions by optimizing the use of different resources. Also, with the rapid development of AI technologies, the objective diagnosis of various diseases will no longer be an uphill task for doctors in the near future.

 

[panamaican]

I feel bad saying this but women doctors are part of the problem.

Quite a few female doctors drop out of the profession after getting married. I believe the stat is that 22% of female doctors don't work full time and it's 30% when it comes to female doctors with children. The numbers are sub-5% for male doctors.

In a highly needed profession that already has a limitation on producing qualified individuals, having 20% of the gender stop contributing fully is really problematic. Especially considering how many female doctors choose pediatrics or ob/gyn.

I get why it happens but it's something that has to be addressed in some fashion.

 

[Misfit23]

Called 7 offices to get a new PCP. First available appointment was in November.

 

[Sweater of AV]

AI has already exceeded doctors in terms of diagnostic accuracy and throughput with older models. With newer models, better computational power, more widespread use and ability to analyze infinitely more data sets than humans, the future of basic and even advanced medical diagnoses is going to heavily use AI, if not completely depend on it (it has shown promise in diagnosing unknown diseases far better than humans). Is your contention that AI wont be used to a great extent in these areas?

AI these days can perform language modeling to perform diagnostics. There's no reason to believe that AI wont get better and more specific to the medical industry. ChatGPT a generic AI can already do some diagnosis, imagine what an AI trained specifically for medical purposes can do in the future?

And yes, that paper is a little outdated and a meta-analysis of older AI models. I only posted it as an example of AI already out-performing human diagnosticians in some areas. The blurb you quoted simply says that AI needs to be trained by doctors and can be used to make their jobs much easier.

For example, a recent 2023 study shows that AI has been shown to effectively diagnose heart, liver, lung and skin diseases, as well as breast cancers:

Evaluation of artificial intelligence techniques in disease diagnosis and prediction

A broad range of medical diagnoses is based on analyzing disease images obtained through high-tech digital devices. The application of artificial intelligence (AI) in the assessment of medical images has led to accurate evaluations being performed automatically, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

No, they haven't. Not even close in general. Also, the very fact you just used the statement:

more widespread use and ability to analyze infinitely more data sets than humans

tells me everything I need to know about your mathematical capabilities. As for the "blurb" I posted, it was from the paper you posted and explicitly says the opposite of your claim.

No offense but you're not as smart as you're trying to demonstrate here. Read the papers properly and don't be naive.