International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. II

[Samjj]

I stated the two examples of actual consequences that I know of which were Morocco and Saudi

UAE are the precursor of all this Arab pro-israeli movement and in their case they will probably not change as they do not have popular pressure. they don't know what it is. Emiratis aren't even numerous enough for that imo. they even sent humanitarian aid to Israel so it says a lot. they will keep at it

Bahrain was pretty neutral condemning both Hamas and Israel. Koweït took position against israel. But both are not major players. They have a lot of money but when did they influence the politics in the region ? outside Koweït being the trigger for the first gulf war I don't recall any real moves from them.

Saudi and Egypt are the ones to look at. and those two have a HUGE risk of it going out of hand domestically if they continue pro Israeli policies. that's why Saudi halted the normalization immediately, and that for the first time Sissi who is a USA puppet showed some - albeit small - bravado and conditioned the exit of American humanitarian workers from Gaza to the entry of humanitarian aid convoys. he HAD TO do that to at least appease the Egyptian crowd a little

Both Sissi and Ben Salman are deeply impopular and dare I say hated, MBS has even alienated a huge part of the royal family, so they both can't ally with Israel in the foreseeable future. it is dead. Israel won't normalize with Saudi and the relationship with Egypt won't be so good as they were from now on

Morocco has a difference in that the king is very popular amongst its citizens and they trust him. the monarchy is something that Moroccans are loyal to. BUT for the first time since Mohamed VI reign he has to face 15K people in the streets and not repress them. He knew he had to let them even if they were chanting "the people want the criminalization of the normalization" (الشعب يريد تجريم التطبيع)

in 2016 there were protest in the eastern region of Rif and they were silenced in blood. but now notice the change. he's in a very precarious position on this subject.

the other states have positioned themselves clearly condemning israel massacres like Algeria, Tunisia, Irak, Syria, Lebanon, Koweït and in the non Arabs Iran, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, South Africa

the normalization with Arab states is dead. for the UAE what will it mean if there is only them and not the Saudi ? nothing

that is my analysis I can always be wrong but I think that

You are likely correct in your assessment of public opinion but I believe MBS is very pragmatic. He is likely to understand the regional influence of Iran as significant and very dangerous. I assume negotiations will continue after things cool down.

Popular opinion of any country but particularly of totalitarian Arab regimes is open to engineering. MBS makes a peace agreement and beings to subtly change narratives in media and in public messaging - I think a lasting peace would be possible.
As per the “cold” peace with Egypt and Jordan for that matter, as long as those regimes are financially and militarily dependent on the U.S. it is unlikely to see any real displays of hostility towards Israel despite both of their respective publics hating Israel (Jordan is a defacto Palestinian state).
I pray for peace.

 

[Deleted member 592822]

"We will turn Gaza to dust!"

An Israeli armed policeman threatens a reporter live on air before turning to face the camera.

 

[syct23]

I've come to realize this is all it really boils down to. We are nothing but apes that figured out how to use tools. So many people will abandon their stated principles to shill for their team. It's tragic.

It’s human nature..

it’s always interesting to see when people gain enough experience in life to finally understand a matrix on this planet.

 

[SammyPops]

Yeah but the arabs have tried to genocide the jews and erase Israel since the moment it was created, if they accepted the 2 state solution and didnt wage war none of this would have happened.

lol this thread has more "yeah but ..." than I've seen in a while

 

[Sir Punchalot]

Yeah but the arabs have tried to genocide the jews and erase Israel since the moment it was created, if they accepted the 2 state solution and didnt wage war none of this would have happened.

Exactly. And it started even before that. You can go back more or less exactly 100 years in the history books and read about Arabs attacking Jewish villages and killing the people who lived there.

Sound familiar to anyone who's followed the news the last, well, week and half?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Which is why a solution will never happen

Ah yes agreed. Wasn't sure what point you were getting at. I must have mixed you up with someone else because I thought you were a super pro-Israel guy.

 

[Sir Punchalot]

lol this thread has more "yeah but ..." than I've seen in a while

Right. As if the whole actual reason for this conflict isn't relevant. Well done.

 

[Wetarmpits]

i asked you what specifically is being forced out of religions by western governments? not sure why this question is so difficult for you to answer.

He only learned that one answer. Western secular liberalism bad, traditional family gone, ancestors forgotten, chicken cage empty.

You can have a traditional family here too, but most people simply don't like it anymore, especially after 7 years + so females tend to leave without the fear of getting shunned or stoned to death at some point.

And the churches? People realized they are scamming control freaks so they lost interest. Just like arabic people will at some point realize their religious leaders were powerhungry sociopaths and liberate themselves from those radicalized teachings of "we good, them bad."

 

[sangreporsangre]

Fuckin insane.

 

[SammyPops]

Right. As if the whole actual reason for this conflict isn't relevant. Well done.

what is the actual reason? Humans ar awful? Religiou sucks? Tribalism is fucked?


Or od you simply mean that since a jew was there first, nothing else matters?

we know for example that in NA there were people here before First Nations, so can we simply ignore our indigenous problems?

 

[Deleted member 592822]

You are likely correct in your assessment of public opinion but I believe MBS is very pragmatic. He is likely to understand the regional influence of Iran as significant and very dangerous. I assume negotiations will continue after things cool down.

Popular opinion of any country but particularly of totalitarianArab regimes is open to engineering. MBS makes a peace agreement and beings to subtly change narratives in media and in public messaging - I think a lasting peace would be possible.
As per the “cold” peace with Egypt and Jordan for that matter, as long as those regimes are financially and militarily dependent on the U.S. it is unlikely to see any real displays of hostility towards Israel despite both of their respective publics hating Israel (Jordan is a defacto Palestinian state).
I pray for peace.

yes there won't be any display of hostility towards Israel from any Arab governments for the matter

the reasons being what you mentioned (Egypt and Jordan being semi puppet states that entirely depend of the US funding to ensure their obedience) and many others specific to the nature of these regimes and of their ties with the west

I am talking about much colder diplomatic relations and a total fail of the Abraham accords. It is indeed dead. Not postponed. Dead

MBS being specifically the pragmatic that he is will see that he can't afford an unrest. He has two huge projects in Neom and Vision 2030 and can't allow to let the seeds of an unrest grow

The counter to Iran will have to be something else

I think the lasting peace is dead now. it is dead since a Zionist extremist killed Yitzhak Rabin. He was the last israeli leader that truly wanted a two state solution and a real lasting peace

The consequences of how this war is conducted are minimized by netanyahu and I do think the guy is drunk with power from a long time ago. he's isolating israel more and more on the international scene

remember it's another subject but he wanted Hamas to stay instead of Palestinian authority because he wanted an opportunity like that https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/

 

[Redando]

dude. i've repeatedly asked you what specifically is being forced out of religion and religious teachings. you still haven't answered.

All secular liberal laws. Finance, politics, social, justice and so on.

 

[HereticBD]

Fuckin insane.

It was a perfectly reasonable response. She is saying it's Hamas' responsibility to take care of their own people, not Israel's. Why doesn't Hamas end this "war" right now, and surrender? They are getting obliterated. It's not up to Israel to provide aid to the enemy, because they're losing. It's up to Hamas to surrender and save their people from any more bloodshed. That's how it works in war.

 

[Redando]

Exactly. And it started even before that. You can go back more or less exactly 100 years in the history books and read about Arabs attacking Jewish villages and killing the people who lived there.

Sound familiar to anyone who's followed the news the last, well, week and half?

this is proven false. You claim that Jews are an ethnicity.
Many people who identify as Jews are Muslims. They are converts. It completely destroys your absurd claim. You are projecting your secular liberal ethnic thinking on others. Islam doesn’t have your racist ideology. Secular liberalism and Zionism are racist ideology centred around ethnicity.
I always have to laugh when I read comments like this.
There is another fallacy in your false claim.
Palestinians are not only Muslim. There are Christian and atheist Palestinians as well. They also oppose this western brutal Zionism and colonialism on their land.

 

[fishNjits]

Yeah. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that stuff.

I have basically lost any hope of understanding what goes on in people's minds anymore.

The far left has completely lost its collective mind.

 

[kflo]

All secular liberal laws. Finance, politics, social, justice and so on.

What are you not allowed to teach in your religious spaces?????

 

[Samjj]

yes there won't be any display of hostility towards Israel from any Arab governments for the matter

the reasons being what you mentioned (Egypt and Jordan being semi puppet states that entirely depend of the US funding to ensure their obedience) and many others specific to the nature of these regimes and of their ties with the west

I am talking about much colder diplomatic relations and a total fail of the Abraham accords. It is indeed dead. Not postponed. Dead

MBS being specifically the pragmatic that he is will see that he can't afford an unrest. He has two huge projects in Neom and Vision 2030 and can't allow to let the seeds of an unrest grow

The counter to Iran will have to be something else

I think the lasting peace is dead now. it is dead since a Zionist extremist killed Yitzhak Rabin. He was the last israeli leader that truly wanted a two state solution and a real lasting peace

The consequences of how this war is conducted are minimized by netanyahu and I do think the guy is drunk with power from a long time ago. he's isolating israel more and more on the international scene

remember it's another subject but he wanted Hamas to stay instead of Palestinian authority because he wanted an opportunity like that https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/

I think Bibi's political career is done...

On the contrary though, despite images of protests in the West in support of Hamas, this seems to be a morally clarifying moment in regards to Israel's challenges in the eyes of the international community who believe in modernity, whatever qualms they may have had in the past.
Hamas did a lot of damage to the Palestinian movement's cause (moral justification for their existence as an independent state) and subsequent ability to solicit empathy from mainstream voices.

The region is going to look totally different after this if it doesn't blow up into a world war, but I don't think it will.
I am more more optimistic than you in regards to the Abraham accords. Narratives are dynamic...
We shall see.

 

[Deleted member 592822]

Yeah but the arabs have tried to genocide the jews and erase Israel since the moment it was created, if they accepted the 2 state solution and didnt wage war none of this would have happened.

Again you keep spreading this propagandist lie again and again. It's not true. The Israelis never offered a true genuine two state solution EXCEPT for Yitzhak Rabin. He truly wanted lasting peace. but guess what ? he was assassinated by an extremist Zionist. You can't make that shit up

and after that the Israelis never wanted a 2 state solution:

• all the offers limited the to-be Palestinian state in his autonomous access to water, energy or even in aerial space. Which sovereign country would accept such a deal ?
• under Netanyahu the expansion of the illegal settlements in the west bank grew at an exponential rate, that's why during Obama second mandate - whatever we think of him - the relationship with the netanyahu administration had deteriorated like it never did before, due to Obama wanting to truly be the guy who implemented the two state solution before he left for good, but Netanyahu went full gas on the illegal settlements and never accepted any offer
• today in power there is a party which is in coalition with netanyahu that's called the Religious Zionist Party. Their creed is simple : all the land are israelis we must drive ALL of the arabs out. google it. those people are in the freakin government
• Netanyahu killed the discussions with the Palestinian Authority of Mahmoud Abbas/Abu Mazen because they indeed wanted to negotiate. He didn't want a 2 state solution so he went and favored Hamas as much as he could cause they would lead to the war he wanted : https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/

An extract : “The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset,” Smotrich said at the time. “It’s a terrorist organization, no one will recognize it, no one will give it status at the [International Criminal Court], no one will let it put forth a resolution at the U.N. Security Council.”
The comments came as the PA, whose authority was effectively limited to the West Bank after a 2007 split with Hamas, was making strides on the international scene, winning U.N. recognition of Palestine and an ICC probe of Israeli crimes in Palestine. Israeli officials dubbed those efforts “diplomatic terrorism,” a more difficult sell to the rest of the world than the terrorism label they apply to Hamas.

@SammyPops it may interest you since I barged in your discussion

 

[oldshadow]

"We will turn Gaza to dust!"

An Israeli armed policeman threatens a reporter live on air before turning to face the camera.

Why is he pissed off raping and killing women and children is no big deal, right.

Why would what hamas did make anyone angry.

Oh by the way he's not dictating policy.

 

[Wadtucket]

"We will turn Gaza to dust!"

An Israeli armed policeman threatens a reporter live on air before turning to face the camera.

Average Isreal sympathizer detected

The mask is coming off real quick from these genocidal colonizers