Have the Gracies lost their authority in their own system and the world of BJJ?

[shunyata]

Do you know why Rorian and Rener Gracie gets so much hate? The only thing that turns me off about Rener is he lays on the 'salesman' gimmick too much.

The high energy ultra positive used car salesman gimmick is one thing, but the online blue belts were another.

A bunch of people also said a few years back that they overhauled the class structure at the Torrance academy and wouldn't let people roll / live train at all until blue belt or a year of beginner classes. Dunno if that's still the case but there were reports from a bunch of students that left after suddenly being told they were no longer allowed to roll and were going to be paying more to train less.

Personally I find Rener to be funny and the old Gracie Breakdowns were usually pretty entertaining, but many people in the broader community dislike how he seems to keep contributing to the mcdojoization of jiujitsu.

 

[RemyR]

At the risk of getting baited into your BJJ/Gracie hate, I think to anyone who paid attention, Royce's last UFC fights in the 90's showed how limited he was, even if he didn't lose. Saku vs Royce in Pride 2000 GP must have been an eye opener to most who were not on the cult wagon. Royce Gracie was formidable in his first couple of UFC tournaments when nobody new something about grappling. After that he gave us to ugliest fights in MMA history. I know some people consider Saku vs Royce a classic, but to me this is vintage hipster posturing because that fight was fucking embarrassing for Royce, who ended up quitting on the stool after one hour with a scratch on his cheek.

To add to this, Wallid vs Royce showed people early on that the Gracie name doesn't necessarily mean you're the best grappler around in pure grappling either.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Do Gracies not own the IBJJF?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

The high energy ultra positive used car salesman gimmick is one thing, but the online blue belts were another.

A bunch of people also said a few years back that they overhauled the class structure at the Torrance academy and wouldn't let people roll / live train at all until blue belt or a year of beginner classes. Dunno if that's still the case but there were reports from a bunch of students that left after suddenly being told they were no longer allowed to roll and were going to be paying more to train less.

Personally I find Rener to be funny and the old Gracie Breakdowns were usually pretty entertaining, but many people in the broader community dislike how he seems to keep contributing to the mcdojoization of jiujitsu.

Yeah the salesman gimmick and ultra commercialisation of combat sports is not something combat sports practitioners respect, whether it made them rich or not.

 

[seatea]

Do you know why Rorian and Rener Gracie gets so much hate? The only thing that turns me off about Rener is he lays on the 'salesman' gimmick too much.

It isn't so much the constant sales pitch that pisses people off, though it is annoying, but what it is that they're actually selling; such as online belt belts and dubious self-defence programmes. But what earns them my personal contempt is their constant attempts to push a narrative about the history, "philosophy" and best practice of BJJ that is both contrary to the facts and what makes BJJ such a valuable art.

BJJ came about so a bunch of rich dudebros (the Gracies and their friends) could beat up other dudebros, not because Helio was having sleepless nights worrying about how delicate manlets (manlet here) and women would defend themselves. And you know what? That is just fine; if you go back in time far enough you'll find that every martial art, no matter how high-minded, started with a need for one group or individual to beat the shit out of another, whether it be on a battlefield or the beaches of Rio. The further an art gets away from those roots the worse it gets, at least as far as practical usage goes. Rener seems determined to separate BJJ from these roots.

Why? Target demographic; as the competitive side of both BJJ and MMA started to get away from Rener's branch I reckon that they spotted a new group of people who were into traditional martial arts but were not so deluded as to be able to handwave away all emerging evidence that traditional arts just aren't that effective. They wanted something more realistic, but with trappings of the traditional. But it is still too realistic for these people as their mall ninja fantasies don't hold up when they're getting their arsed handed to them twice a week. Hence the online belts and limits on when you can roll.

 

[shunyata]

Do Gracies not own the IBJJF?

Carlos Jr does.

He's doing just fine in terms of power and influence over the sport.


And at the risk of repeating myself, let me state AGAIN for the record that Gordon Ryan and Danaher are straight out of the Renzo lineage. The Gracies still have a massive influence over gi and nogi competition.

 

[TheMaster]

And at the risk of repeating myself, let me state AGAIN for the record that Gordon Ryan and Danaher are straight out of the Renzo lineage. The Gracies still have a massive influence over gi and nogi competition.

"Straight out of Renzo lineage" doesn't translate to "Renzo produced Gordon Ryan and is considered the top coach still".

If you hear Danaher speak he is basically calling out the limitations of the Gracie method and saying he had to add things to make it evolve. He is basically the epitome of their loss of authority.

"They didn't do leg locks, so I had to study Catch and Sambo to learn this, then developed my own system of leg entanglements to evolve it further"

"They can't wrestle or do takedowns for shit in BJJ, so we need to add back more emphasis on Judo throws and wrestling to actually get the fight to the ground"

"They couldn't hold a guy down well. We needed to work on getting more top control to actually keep the guy down if he decides he wants to stand back up again".

 

[Nathan LaMontagne]

They are selling a watered down self defense shift BJJ version.
Also try to profit from every evil thing that happens.
Like after the rape case at Lloyd Irvins gym would claim that it was the fault of the competive environment in their academy and try to market their shit of the event.

That's when I went from indifference to outright fucking hate for Rener.

A fucking miserable atrocity occurs and he sees fucking dollar signs.

Fuck Rener.

 

[DoctorTaco]

if you go back in time far enough you'll find that every martial art, no matter how high-minded, started with a need for one group or individual to beat the shit out of another, whether it be on a battlefield or the beaches of Rio. The further an art gets away from those roots the worse it gets, at least as far as practical usage goes

This is good.

 

[EndlessCritic]

If you hear Danaher speak he is basically calling out the limitations of the Gracie method and saying he had to add things to make it evolve.

Isn't this basically the Helio Gracie origin myth?

 

[TheMaster]

Isn't this basically the Helio Gracie origin myth?

I don't know what the current version of the myth is. I do know that in almost all the early Gracie instructional books and videos when they were trying to establish it in the US, they outright denied the origin links to Judo and tried to make the connection hazy which is ridiculous.

 

[Oldguy]

The Gracies woke up the world to the importance of ground fighting. Thank you for that. But, any honest person knows it was basically Judo Newaza. I remember at the time training in a Judo club. They were so annoyed.

The Gracies acted like they invented the wheel when already existed for a hundreds of years.

 

[maximus__]

Keenan Cornelius, a student of American Lloyd Irvin calling Rickson & Helio "purple belt" by today's standards summarizes it all. And he's not even trying to create controversy. His mom doesn't need to rescue her wonderful son this time because his remarks didn't get himself any trouble.

In judo, this never happens because kodokan owns the sport, its history and its evolution. They don't allow non-kodokan fractions to use the name, judo or declare independence. Anyone who criticizes kodokan gets penalized or dispelled.

The irony of this comment (and I am a Keenan fan) is that he has become the purple belt equivalent to today's competitive black belt scene. He can't hang with the current generation anymore competitively. He is still an amazing grappler and teacher, but is out of that competitive top group.

From all accounts Rickson was legitimately still amazing on the ground well into old age.

It's just part of ageing and competing unfortunately. When you can jump online and get world class instruction from the other side of the world in 2 seconds, people are just simply going to be better in a technique based sport.

Old style Judo is such an awesome sport, but their whole history around removing techniques and blocking people from earning money in MMA is weird.

 

[maximus__]

Do you know why Rorian and Rener Gracie gets so much hate? The only thing that turns me off about Rener is he lays on the 'salesman' gimmick too much.

They market their BJJ to celebrities and people with money who don't necessarily want to grind and take 10 years to get a black belt, whilst getting cauliflower ears and injuries.

They do include strikes in their program and have an actual curriculum, but you can progress without sparring.
They don't have a heap of competitors tearing up competitions with their curriculum either. Most notable person in MMA is Brian Ortega.

They had a blue belt curriculum for a while that was possible to obtain without ever sparring and they were selling Gracie Garage affiliations and had a 16 year old Blue belt running a school at one point. They changed the combatives belt to white with a blue stripe after all the backlash.

 

[kintana]

No way they are considered number 1 any more. That does not mean they are not a good school. They are a different school then most BJJ schools since they are very strict on their program.

I trained at a Gracie Academy school once and I would not say they were amazing grapplers but they had a strong technical understanding of the basics. They also seemed more self defense focused.

The question if they are a still good school to learn from depends on what you want. If you want to a be a sports competitor Gracie Academy is probably not the best.

Do they have good basic instruction? I believe so but they are not top level anymore.

But this is not surprising at all.

 

[maximus__]

I don't know what the current version of the myth is. I do know that in almost all the early Gracie instructional books and videos when they were trying to establish it in the US, they outright denied the origin links to Judo and tried to make the connection hazy which is ridiculous.

My understanding is they always acknowledged the Judo link, but basically claim they invented the attacking guard and the offence from positions that would be considered a pin in Judo.

Basically they took what Carlos was taught by Maeda (JJJ and Judo) and refined it what we would think of as BJJ which was actually Gracie JJ.

From there it all gets a little crazy in terms of lineage and having as many kids as possible to create a team of fighters.

 

[maximus__]

"Straight out of Renzo lineage" doesn't translate to "Renzo produced Gordon Ryan and is considered the top coach still".

If you hear Danaher speak he is basically calling out the limitations of the Gracie method and saying he had to add things to make it evolve. He is basically the epitome of their loss of authority.

"They didn't do leg locks, so I had to study Catch and Sambo to learn this, then developed my own system of leg entanglements to evolve it further"

"They can't wrestle or do takedowns for shit in BJJ, so we need to add back more emphasis on Judo throws and wrestling to actually get the fight to the ground"

"They couldn't hold a guy down well. We needed to work on getting more top control to actually keep the guy down if he decides he wants to stand back up again".

I wonder what shaped John's opinion on Gracie JJ and made him seek out that knowledge.
Renzo 100% had an influence on Gordon, just like Tonon and Deblass did. Danaher was the main coach though.


People don't realise New Wave (Danaher) still teaches and runs classes at Renzo's in Austin.
The private New wave sessions are just a competition crew ran out of a private gym. They got sick of drop ins giving all their athletes staph etc.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

International judo Federation defines the sport they operate as "kodokan judo" to exclude independent schools or unauthentic cult groups like Buchido-Kai or gaidojitsu. (They attempted to acquire BJJ federation a while ago into their subdivision but failed).

Kodokan judo was founded by a University of Tokyo scholar, Dr Jigoro Kano as an education system to raise youths around the world academically and physically. Kano emphasized on self-conquering and mutual growth. And if you ask any frenchy doing judo, they'll tell you half dozen of Kano quotes to explain what judo is all about.It's not about selling ass-kicking techniques for 80+ bucks an hour (muito obligado).

BJJ practitioners are always fighting against other BJJ practitioners who are supposed to be their friends. They're so concerned with tapping out others that they forget about honor, self betterment, beauty of budo and respect for the Gracie family who introduced tremendous value of something to their life. Whereas, there's no domestic conflicts in judo community because kodokan teaches them to mind their own improvement.

Judo has its own dramas, all over the world.

And once you get national budget involved, then universally, the most disgusting the things get.


One thing I do agree with you, is the overall attitude of the athletes:

Nobody can act like Gordon Ryan in Judo.
Nobody.
Ishii (an Olympic champ) got immediately banned from Judo, just because he expressed his wish to do MMA.
Athletes get DQs for celebrations after a win.

I can't even imagine a prominent Judo figure to trash talk.

 

[TheMaster]

The irony of this comment (and I am a Keenan fan) is that he has become the purple belt equivalent to today's competitive black belt scene. He can't hang with the current generation anymore competitively. He is still an amazing grappler and teacher, but is out of that competitive top group.

From all accounts Rickson was legitimately still amazing on the ground well into old age.

"Keenan Cornelius...modern day purple belt". <45>

That's actually hilarious if true, you talk about him like he's some old dinosaur the guy is barely out of his 20's.

Regards Rickson or any elite martial artist for that matter, I actually think its as big as if not a greater testament to their skill the ability to maintain a high level into old age and adapt their game accordingly with bodily decline. Prime is all very well but youth can make most things work, the real test is when some of these attributes decline or at least one learns how to maintain them well past the point that is normal for age.

It's just part of ageing and competing unfortunately. When you can jump online and get world class instruction from the other side of the world in 2 seconds, people are just simply going to be better in a technique based sport.

Yes this is true, no one could have predicted the rise of the Internet and the ease of spread of information. Hell, its been years since I trained Judo and grappling arts consistently aside from occasional dipping in from time to time, but I wouldnt be surprised with watching so many online instructionals my rear naked choke technique is probably better than a lot of old school high level BJJ belts and catch wrestlers just because I've seen so many variations and nuances of the hold and how to set it up and adjust it. This is not a situation that anyone could have predicted.

The question is, if the Gracies had known it was going to become like this, would they still have tried to popularize GJJ? The whole idea and model was the world would learn it was an effective style but you had to go to them for the info and training, not any unaffiliated grappling teacher + online videos.

Old style Judo is such an awesome sport, but their whole history around removing techniques and blocking people from earning money in MMA is weird.

Not really. From the flip slide of it look at what happened to the Gracies, they got disenfranchised from their own art to a large extent and its only going to get worse. Why would the Kodokan want or allow that to happen to them? BJJ itself is arguably a disenfranchisement of Kosen Judo anyway.
Furthermore, from a GJJ perspective modern sport BJJ doesn't match what their original intent was ie self defence. So controlling what goes and what is included in the corpus of technique preserves the intent of the style.

 

[maximus__]

"Keenan Cornelius...modern day purple belt". <45>

That's actually hilarious if true, you talk about him like he's some old dinosaur the guy is barely out of his 20's.

Regards Rickson or any elite martial artist for that matter, I actually think its as big as if not a greater testament to their skill the ability to maintain a high level into old age and adapt their game accordingly with bodily decline. Prime is all very well but youth can make most things work, the real test is when some of these attributes decline or at least one learns how to maintain them well past the point that is normal for age.



Yes this is true, no one could have predicted the rise of the Internet and the ease of spread of information. Hell, its been years since I trained Judo and grappling arts consistently aside from occasional dipping in from time to time, but I wouldnt be surprised with watching so many online instructionals my rear naked choke technique is probably better than a lot of old school high level BJJ belts and catch wrestlers just because I've seen so many variations and nuances of the hold and how to set it up and adjust it. This is not a situation that anyone could have predicted.

The question is, if the Gracies had known it was going to become like this, would they still have tried to popularize GJJ? The whole idea and model was the world would learn it was an effective style but you had to go to them for the info and training, not any unaffiliated grappling teacher + online videos.



Not really. From the flip slide of it look at what happened to the Gracies, they got disenfranchised from their own art to a large extent and its only going to get worse. Why would the Kodokan want or allow that to happen to them? BJJ itself is arguably a disenfranchisement of Kosen Judo anyway.
Furthermore, from a GJJ perspective modern sport BJJ doesn't match what their original intent was ie self defence. So controlling what goes and what is included in the corpus of technique preserves the intent of the style.

Keenan retried from competition and his system has since been adopted by other people and figured out. At one point he was a top 10 grappler on Earth and was still a top player in Gi, but actually had some of his best results in No Gi. He would be the first one to tell you he isn't on the same level as those guys anymore, he isn't delusional. The modern competitive purple belts are all tapping black belts regularly in competition these days in ADCC trials. The concept of the belt has changed with the rise of ADCC as the premier competition.

Keenan isn't old but he has been competing for nearly 15 years and is pretty shopworn. BJJ is one of those weird sports where people hang around for ages, but in his prime he was competing in everything. He appears to be a natural athlete unlike certain other guys hanging around to their 40s. He moved across to teaching and building his school. He has jumped into competition and done poorly since his focus has shifted. Like Rickson, he is still an amazing grappler. He may come back and do well again at some point.

Gracie JJ is a specific style of JJ within a sport. It's good to keep the specific art alive, but they need to remember where it came from. They took the good bits from Judo and JJJ and made it better for what they wanted. The same has happened with Gracie JJ and how it has been changed today by other people.

I don't think they are the best at JJ anymore, but they have had some of the best competitors come out of their family.