How come Max is still in his prime but people say that Aldo was past prime when he fought Volk?

[Rapa]

I mean, When Aldo fought Volk he wasn't even 33 years old.
Holloway is now just 4 months younger than Aldo was when Volk dominated him in Brazil.
Look at what he did to the most violent LW of all time.

Aldo has been fighting at the highest level (including WEC) since 2008 while Max was fighting at the highest level since 2012.
That means Aldo was 11 yeas in when he fought Volk and Max was 12 years in when he KOed Gaethje.

Not to mention, that Aldo looked very good after the Volk loss and he was actually improving all the way up to the Merab loss.
His boxing was better than ever, he was setting personal best records, his TDD was as good as ever, he was even bringing back leg kicks to some extent.

Even if we count their entire careers(amateur included) Max was fighting since 2006 while Aldo was fighting since 2004.

In my opinion prime version of fighters like Max, Volk and Petr would beat any version of Aldo simply because they have much better gas tanks and chins.

So, If he really wasn't in his physical prime when he fought Volk then when was he, from which fight to which?

Its all about mental state aldo was broken after conor deleted him in 13 seconds

 

[Poatan Power]

It comes down to a couple things. Mileage (damage, fights, years in, etc) and performance (wins vs losses and matchups).

Anthony Pettis was past his prime and cooked basically at 29-30. He was 18-2 at age 28 and UFC champion, he went 7-12 after that and let guys like Poirier use his name as a resume builder.

Eddie Alvarez was 28-4 at age 33, former Bellator champ and came to the UFC and got a W over Justin, Gilbert, RDA (title)...a full 3-4 years older than when Pettis fell off. Eddie fell off basically at the Conor loss (33-34).

Glover and Randy won titles in their 40's (lol).

I think if you watch guys and see their peak performance/accomplishment and then they fall short of that height, you assume they're out of their prime. That's a little disingenuous and takes a lot of hindsight to accurately analyze, imho.

Max's age and starching Justin makes him "in his prime," but nobody was saying that after fighting Volk a handful of times.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I wasn't specifically targetting this thread, Im just saying over the years its been like this with fans in general. No personal attacks.

Read the first page, @Substance Abuse makes a great post explaining that everyone has a different prime age range but in general most fighters decline around 10-12 years into their MMA carees. Age isn't generally relevant to when a fighter's prime is. Most fighters start to decline about 10-12 years into their MMA careers depending on the damage they take and Big Nog started MMA very young and also took a lot of damage.

Big Nog had very clearly lost a step in his early 30s from what he was physically capable of in his 20s. That is why I said to watch him against Sergei Kharitonov and then watch some of his first UFC fights, he's declined physically and isn't as fast as he used to be, the Bob Sapp fight and the Fedor fights took a big toll on him.

 

[markg171]

Prime is a completely made up criteria used to justify losses or bad performances. There's no way to actually measure it. If someone tries to tell you it's after X years, Y fights, Z KOs, etc., they're just saying that to retroactively justify how their favourite fighters career went.

All you can actually tell is whether or not they're still improving, remaining the same, or getting worse. The longer they're in the fight game they theoretically should be getting better as that's more experience and practice. Even if you actually are physically declining your experience should help you figure out how to compensate for that by improving elsewhere.

For instance Forrest Griffin leaned in very heavily to leg kicks around the Rampage fight. He'd always done them yes, but here he ramped them up. Obviously the common consensus was it was to slow Rampage down to help nullfiy his boxing and power advantage and yeah it worked. But then he went and did it again against Rashad. Okay, maybe same strategy as Rashad also had big power? Though that's exactly what lost him the fight as Rashad finally got him down off one as Rashad was a wrestler too. And then again for the rest of his career, even against primarily wrestlers like Tito who needed those kicks for TD openings. Forrest may have had good kicks, but it was seeming a bit reckless to keep using them so heavily no matter who he fought.

Years after he retired he let us know that his shoulders had gotten completely fucked to the point he could barely even brush his teeth they were so bad, let alone throw punches. That's why he'd adopted a kicking heavy style. So like there you might say Forrest was out of his prime after his shoulders were fucked as obviously overall he's compromised, but he also just used his experience to change up his style and adapt to it and that won him some of his biggest fights. Can't just be black and white.

The real problem is people just use prime as an excuse for their fighters refusing to adapt and improve, physical decline or not. A guy like Aldo still had nearly all of his technique by the end still, if not better. Shutting down Merab's wrestling is something he'd never have done earlier in his career where others took him down. People point out the lack of leg kicks, but neglect to mention that he adapted to his style to essentially force a boxing match with his supreme TDD and leg checks. He drew them into his style of fight now. That was a brilliant adaptation if he actually couldn't kick anymore. The real problem is he never really improved his cardio along the way, an issue that had raised its head all the way back against Hominick when he was still young and hadn't broken his foot

So don't come to me saying someone like Aldo was losing fights cause he was out of his prime when in most of them he was just gassing again.

 

[markg171]

If anything Aldo should get credit for continuing to win at a high level even without arguably his best weapons:

Kicks
Knees

I'm not saying he didn't possibly injure his legs to the point he possibly abandoned them, but they were also a liability against grapplers.

Which increasingly became the apparent path to beat Aldo when he largely had a striking advantage over most fighters.

 

[GOATtalks]

Are you really implying that basically all champs and all top p4p fighters in the world are out of their primes? Lol

 

[Kb7]

Everyfighters prime is not the same, but it's ridiculous that when a fighter loses it's suddenly that they're out of their prime. Aldo was still competitive against top rank fighters, it's not like he was losing to bums.

People saying Holloway was out of his prime was always a cope mechanism for his losses to Volkanovski, who might just be a bad matchup for Holloway. Holloway literally beat all the contenders at 145 minus Topuria, and still people were doubting him prior to the Gaethje bout like he was washed up. Could he be entering his prime? Maybe, but I think he's been in his prime during the 2nd Volkanovski fight, even in a loss he looked great and every bout after that he's shown his intelligence and diversity in his style after that.

"Primes" are always weird arguements which bias is always almost used as an excuse to used when their favorites lose.

 

[fzoid4454]

I mean, When Aldo fought Volk he wasn't even 33 years old.
Holloway is now just 4 months younger than Aldo was when Volk dominated him in Brazil.
Look at what he did to the most violent LW of all time.

Aldo has been fighting at the highest level (including WEC) since 2008 while Max was fighting at the highest level since 2012.
That means Aldo was 11 yeas in when he fought Volk and Max was 12 years in when he KOed Gaethje.

Not to mention, that Aldo looked very good after the Volk loss and he was actually improving all the way up to the Merab loss.
His boxing was better than ever, he was setting personal best records, his TDD was as good as ever, he was even bringing back leg kicks to some extent.

Even if we count their entire careers(amateur included) Max was fighting since 2006 while Aldo was fighting since 2004.

In my opinion prime version of fighters like Max, Volk and Petr would beat any version of Aldo simply because they have much better gas tanks and chins.

So, If he really wasn't in his physical prime when he fought Volk then when was he, from which fight to which?

Because length of careers, training methods, genetics, how many "miles" and how hard those miles were, non-sports experiences and just about everything else varies from person to person.

No one hits their physical peak at the same time, no one sees the same rate of decline, some offset or compensate loss of some abilities differently, some inevitable loss to age will impact some fighting styles more than others.

That some people peak later or don't decline as much doesn't mean others showing that decline aren't doing so.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Everyone's primes are the same. Everyone accumulates the same injuries. Everyone trains the same. Max and Jose both got in motorcycle accidents. Max and Jose both kept sparring.

However, to delve further into it, most fighters begin to experience an athletic, reactionary and ability to absorb damage decline about ten to twelve years in. GSP is considered one of the greats and his career was winding down in '13 after almost twelve years of fighting, prompting him to retire. Condit's descent began in '14 after starting in '02 when he got injured against Woodley. Aldo was a few months shy of his twelfth year in MMA at 29 when he began to lose. Fedor started taking losses almost eleven years in. Edgar wasn't the same thirteen years in. Big Nog eleven years. Liddell hit the wall around that time.

Yes, there are outliers like Mighty Mouse, Jon Jones (wink, wink) Anderson Silva (wink, wink), and apparently Max (who stopped sparring to spare his health and try to stave off decline), but for the most part, the majority of top fighters experience it after or around this time frame and begin to taste defeat more often as reflexes change; wear takes it toll; chins fade; injuries linger; weight cuts get harder; there's more tape available on you.

To hammer home my point: Volkanovski lost to Ilia three months shy of his twelfth year as a mixed martial artist. He's still a great fighter, but at 35, and this far into his career, he'll likely never be the same.

I think for GSP, huge aspect was he had two knee surgeries. Tore his ACL in 2011 and 2014, not sure if it was the same knee or not. He also had a meniscus tear around 2010, if I'm not mistaken.

Aldo both aged poorly and got exposed/broken. Typically insane athletes with super fast twitch striking age out of their primes earlier since speed and reflexes begin regressing around 28-30. Also the Hominick fight showed us Aldo has an exploitable gas tank, since then he got absolutely face planted by McGregor and then bludgeoned to a TKO vs Max twice, both times largely due to him looking good early but then breaking under the pressure. Then there was that war with Mendes. Being knocked out 3 times and enduring a war, changing up your style to conserve energy so much you hardly even kick anymore...there's no way a fighter could psychologically be ontop after something like this let alone physically. @Shay Brennan , I don't understand your confusion on this subject...it's plain as day.

I am a little skeptical of the 12 year window thing, Pantoja debut pro at 16-17, Oliveira did at 17, Islam at 18 (but did Sanda and Sambo well before that), Dricus is 11+ years into his pro career but was a kickboxer before MMA and did Judo and Wrestling. Strickland is having his career high 15-16 years into his pro career. Just depends, I know you know this. As careers start earlier, I don't necessarily think it means they will end sooner. Guys will go until 35-38 on average still I think despite consistently going prob at 18 and even beginning amateurs before that.

 

[NoSmilez]

It's the style. Aldo has a more physical style than Max. He relies on speed and reflexes. Max was never too fast and he enjoyed a height advantage in the majority of his fights.

I will admit I thought Max was shot years ago when he was showing signs of being severely concussed on TV. His face was drooping and his speech was slurred.

 

[Substance Abuse]

Aldo both aged poorly and got exposed/broken. Typically insane athletes with super fast twitch striking age out of their primes earlier since speed and reflexes begin regressing around 28-30. Also the Hominick fight showed us Aldo has an exploitable gas tank, since then he got absolutely face planted by McGregor and then bludgeoned to a TKO vs Max twice, both times largely due to him looking good early but then breaking under the pressure. Then there was that war with Mendes. Being knocked out 3 times and enduring a war, changing up your style to conserve energy so much you hardly even kick anymore...there's no way a fighter could psychologically be ontop after something like this let alone physically.

Aldo stopped kicking due to injuries, not due to tank. Aldo never had a great tank, and didn't diet properly leading to terrible cuts at times, but his cardio failed him during the Hominick fight due to a terrible infection that required antibiotics to the point that he had to leave the champions gathering early. Between the injuries, wars and hard training at NU, he was out of his prime.

As for the twelve year thing, it isn't definitive and everyone is different. There are guys who excel at a later age, or fighters like Holloway who start kickboxing at 15, got to the UFC at 21, and probably didn't hit his prime until he was 24. But it seems fighters tend to fall off to some degree around this time frame in myriad ways. People will say that Max is in his prime currently, I don't think he is at all. I do however think his fight knowledge, ability to implement his skill set and diversify his approach with it, as well as gameplanning is at it's peak. I don't think Pantoja is at his physical peak, but he's such a wily veteran that he can utilize his skills better than ever and knows his limitations. There's no cut and cry answer as there are so many fighters, but I feel comfortable in my conclusion with the realization that people are different and fight mileage, age, as well as injuries alter fighters differently, them exiting their prime with effects demonstrating themselves in innumerable ways.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Aldo stopped kicking due to injuries, not due to tank. Aldo never had a great tank, and didn't diet properly leading to terrible cuts at times, but his cardio failed him during the Hominick fight due to a terrible infection that required antibiotics to the point that he had to leave the champions gathering early. Between the injuries, wars and hard training at NU, he was out of his prime.

As for the twelve year thing, it isn't definitive and everyone is different. There are guys who excel at a later age, or fighters like Holloway who start kickboxing at 15, got to the UFC at 21, and probably didn't hit his prime until he was 24. But it seems fighters tend to fall off to some degree around this time frame in numerous ways. People will say that Max is in his prime currently, I don't think he is at all. I do however think his fight knowledge, ability to implement his skill set and diversify his approach with it, as well as gameplanning is at it's peak. I don't think Pantoja is at his physical peak, but he's such a wily veteran that he can utilize his skills better than ever and knows his limitations. There's no cut and cry answer as there are so many fighters, but I feel comfortable in my conclusion with the realization that people are different and fight mileage, age and injuries alter fighters differently and they exit their prime with effects demonstrating themselves in innumerable ways.

To me athletic primes and technical/knowledge primes have an optimal overlap where you find a fighters absolute prime. If we are just talking athletic ability, then yeah, 22-30 tends to be the range with peaking being around 25-26. Wear and tear is super real too. I don't agree on the Aldo front, he broke vs every good pressure fighter around the same time...it was routine. Looked great vs Yan and Max early and just fucking wilted.

 

[maximus__]

Everyone's primes are the same. Everyone accumulates the same injuries. Everyone trains the same. Max and Jose both got in motorcycle accidents. Max and Jose both kept sparring.

However, to delve further into it, most fighters begin to experience an athletic, reactionary and ability to absorb damage decline about ten to twelve years in. GSP is considered one of the greats and his career was winding down in '13 after almost twelve years of fighting, prompting him to retire. Condit's descent began in '14 after starting in '02 when he got injured against Woodley. Aldo was a few months shy of his twelfth year in MMA at 29 when he began to lose. Fedor started taking losses almost eleven years in. Edgar wasn't the same thirteen years in. Big Nog eleven years. Liddell hit the wall around that time.

Yes, there are outliers like Mighty Mouse, Jon Jones (wink, wink) Anderson Silva (wink, wink), and apparently Max (who stopped sparring to spare his health and try to stave off decline), but for the most part, the majority of top fighters experience it after or around this time frame and begin to taste defeat more often as reflexes change; wear takes it toll; chins fade; injuries linger; weight cuts get harder; there's more tape available on you.

To hammer home my point: Volkanovski lost to Ilia three months shy of his twelfth year as a mixed martial artist. He's still a great fighter, but at 35, and this far into his career, he'll likely never be the same.

This 100%
It's the same in most sports. a Decade of high level competition, with the greats holding out for a couple extra years, but starting to slowly lose or even just look more beatable.
It's why you don't get many 3x Olympic gold medalists.

 

[Substance Abuse]

To me athletic primes and technical/knowledge primes have an optimal overlap where you find a fighters absolute prime. If we are just talking athletic ability, then yeah, 22-30 tends to be the range with peaking being around 25-26. Wear and tear is super real too. I don't agree on the Aldo front, he broke vs every good pressure fighter around the same time...it was routine. Looked great vs Yan and Max early and just fucking wilted.

I agree with you. As for the Aldo thing, both can be true. He was not in his prime. He was limited offensively due to injuries and he still lost to bigger guys in Max and Conor, and had issues with pressure. I think wilted is a tough way to put it. It isn't like Yan and Max didn't beat the shit out of Jose. He took a ton of damage in those three fights and went out on his shield against Yan and in Holloway II. Hespect.

 

[sandokan83]

I mean, When Aldo fought Volk he wasn't even 33 years old.
Holloway is now just 4 months younger than Aldo was when Volk dominated him in Brazil.
Look at what he did to the most violent LW of all time.

Aldo has been fighting at the highest level (including WEC) since 2008 while Max was fighting at the highest level since 2012.
That means Aldo was 11 yeas in when he fought Volk and Max was 12 years in when he KOed Gaethje.

Not to mention, that Aldo looked very good after the Volk loss and he was actually improving all the way up to the Merab loss.
His boxing was better than ever, he was setting personal best records, his TDD was as good as ever, he was even bringing back leg kicks to some extent.

Even if we count their entire careers(amateur included) Max was fighting since 2006 while Aldo was fighting since 2004.

In my opinion prime version of fighters like Max, Volk and Petr would beat any version of Aldo simply because they have much better gas tanks and chins.

So, If he really wasn't in his physical prime when he fought Volk then when was he, from which fight to which?

What is your point by the way?

 

[theufcbaddy]

Max is a legend lads.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Everyfighters prime is not the same, but it's ridiculous that when a fighter loses it's suddenly that they're out of their prime. Aldo was still competitive against top rank fighters, it's not like he was losing to bums.

People saying Holloway was out of his prime was always a cope mechanism for his losses to Volkanovski, who might just be a bad matchup for Holloway. Holloway literally beat all the contenders at 145 minus Topuria, and still people were doubting him prior to the Gaethje bout like he was washed up. Could he be entering his prime? Maybe, but I think he's been in his prime during the 2nd Volkanovski fight, even in a loss he looked great and every bout after that he's shown his intelligence and diversity in his style after that.

"Primes" are always weird arguements which bias is always almost used as an excuse to used when their favorites lose.

People have trouble with nuance, just because a fighter is no longer in their prime doesn't mean they all of a sudden suck or are much worse. Some fighters decline rapidly others slowly, Aldo declined slowly and it started around the time he fought the Korean Zombie and broke his foot and was no longer able to kick the same way he could before.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

To me athletic primes and technical/knowledge primes have an optimal overlap where you find a fighters absolute prime. If we are just talking athletic ability, then yeah, 22-30 tends to be the range with peaking being around 25-26. Wear and tear is super real too. I don't agree on the Aldo front, he broke vs every good pressure fighter around the same time...it was routine. Looked great vs Yan and Max early and just fucking wilted.

So Edgar all of a sudden wasn't a pressure fighter everytime he fought Aldo? I'm sorry but this take that he wilts against pressure fighters is just lazy. The Korean Zombie was also a pressure fighter as was Homminick. He was on the decline and didn't have as many tools as he used to.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

your genes also play a role. Chuck Liddell had an iron chin until he didn't. while a guy like Mark Hunt still has an iron chin even though he's been knocked out multiple times also.

 

[markg171]

So Edgar all of a sudden wasn't a pressure fighter everytime he fought Aldo? I'm sorry but this take that he wilts against pressure fighters is just lazy. The Korean Zombie was also a pressure fighter as was Homminick. He was on the decline and didn't have as many tools as he used to.

I wouldn't really call Edgar a pressure fighter. He backs off and circles out as soon as someone throws back or counters him because he doesn't have the power or physicality to engage in a firefight.

He's a volume fighter, but not a pressure fighter.