Opinion how do you counter this argument?

[GearSolidMetal]

"Every country in the world has been occupied and snatched from its indigenous people.
what Isreal is doing can be viewed as a necessary evil"

Jews are Israel's indigenous people. They occupied Israel since biblical times over 1,000 years before Islam was founded.

Palestinians stole it from them, and the Jews took it back.

Would have thought leftists, who refer to America as being stolen land of native tribes, would admire the Jews for taking back what was theirs.

 

[tenniswhiz]

Where are they? It's not the NHS, it's not Canada, but maybe Switzerland(which isn't single payer) or someplace with fewer than 20 million people and no border problems?

You'd be much better off sticking to claiming it's cheaper, because quality is a losing argument, and even the cheaper claim only really works on employers and independent contractors who can now spread the cost burden onto employees. Might also be a decent deal for employees over 50 who will use it more after a lifetime without the higher taxes.

Really the best argument would be the breakdown and gouging with insurance companies and try to get support that way. It's something


Lol, you got fake news'd again. Yeah, you tend to get more support when you call something "free" than you do when they find out it isn't. You only get support when they don't know what they're supporting, and it plummets once they are given more information.

You hate "tax cuts for the rich", but are all for saving them mountains of cash by shifting the burden of employee medical insurance from them onto everyone's taxes?



https://apnews.com/article/4516833e7fb644c9aa8bcc11048b2169
Support increased when people were told “Medicare-for-all” would guarantee health insurance as a right (71 percent) and eliminate premiums and reduce out-of-pocket costs (67 percent).

But if they were told that a government-run system could lead to delays in getting care or higher taxes, support plunged to 26 percent and 37 percent, respectively.

I never said I think illegal or undocumented immigrants should be eligible. I agree, close the borders.

But we really should try to emulate the advanced democracies that provide universal healthcare to their citizens and permanent residents.

Obviously, liberal arts students who have never earned a dollar in their lives would then start protesting the unequal treatment of undocumented immigrants, and of course they should stfu and go study math/science.

 

[nostradumbass]

I never said I think illegal or undocumented immigrants should be eligible. I agree, close the borders.

But we really should try to emulate the advanced democracies that provide universal healthcare to their citizens and permanent residents.

Obviously, liberal arts students who have never earned a dollar in their lives would then start protesting the unequal treatment of undocumented immigrants, and of course they should stfu and go study math/science.

Which one though? Some are run nationally, Canada is run at the provincial level, Switzerland isn't government funded, they just make you buy it like we have for car insurance, some are employer based.

I'm all ears on ideas for something that could work here, but our population of illegals is bigger than a lot of other countries' entire populations, and as you said, the immediate "civil rights" debate would be giving it to illegals, and they'd run about a million propaganda pieces about "kids are dying", AOC would have another photo shoot of her fake crying in a gucci suit before zipping off in her Tesla.

 

[Sinister]

Jews are Israel's indigenous people. They occupied Israel since biblical times over 1,000 years before Islam was founded.

Palestinians stole it from them, and the Jews took it back.

Would have thought leftists, who refer to America as being stolen land of native tribes, would admire the Jews for taking back what was theirs.

Eh nah, Palestinians were always there, just prior to Isrealite presence they observed the Canaanite religion. They are semitic, same as Isrealites are. They werent Arabized until later with Isrealite population dwindled from the Jewish-Roman War.

But to suggest that Palestinians are not indigenous is factually incorrect.

 

[tenniswhiz]

Which one though? Some are run nationally, Canada is run at the provincial level, Switzerland isn't government funded, they just make you buy it like we have for car insurance, some are employer based.

I'm all ears on ideas for something that could work here, but our population of illegals is bigger than a lot of other countries' entire populations, and as you said, the immediate "civil rights" debate would be giving it to illegals, and they'd run about a million propaganda pieces about "kids are dying", AOC would have another photo shoot of her fake crying in a gucci suit before zipping off in her Tesla.

The Korean healthcare system is the one I’m most familiar with. It has been extremely successful.
https://www.publichealth.columbia.e...ive-health-policy-library/south-korea-summary

 

[fishNjits]

History didn’t start in 1947

This is actually quite true. The original League of Nations division had the Jewish population in control of not only Israel proper today, but also the West Bank and the Golan Heights. The partition plan brought to the UN cut the land under control of the Jewish population by 77%.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Eh nah, Palestinians were always there, just prior to Isrealite presence they observed the Canaanite religion. They are semitic, same as Isrealites were. They werent Arabized until later with Isrealite population dwindled from the Jewish-Roman War.

But to suggest that Palestinians are not indigenous is factually incorrect.

'Always there?' Meaning before Moses lead the Israelites to Israel over 1,000 years BC? Or were Palestinians were supposedly amongst them?

Regardless they either converted to Islam, or were conquered by Islam, and now their main goal is to genocide the Jews by any means necessary.

The modern-day Jews were right to cast them out then, in 1948, and they'd be right to cast them out of Gaza now after what happened 16 days ago. They've proven multiple times over 7 decades they're incapable of living in peace just besides the Jews.

 

[fishNjits]

"Every country in the world has been occupied and snatched from its indigenous people.
what Isreal is doing can be viewed as a necessary evil"

The really simple reason is that the Israelis did not feel it necessary to abide by the UN partition plan that IT AGREED TO, when it became apparent that the Arab Armies weren't going to abide by it.

Israel seized Gaza from Egypt in 1967. Israel TOLD Jordan not to get involved in the 6-Day War and WARNED Jordan that Israel would take the West Bank if Jordan did get involved. Jordan got involved.

It's interesting that your map of 1949-1967 shows Palestine for both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip instead of Jordan and Egypt respectively. We all know that there never was a "Palestine".

 

[fishNjits]

How about that statement is just demonstrably untrue? Most countries may have been occupied at some point, but most countries today are populated and governed by the native people of that region. Notable exceptions would be the US, Canada, Australia, israel and New Zealand. But Europe, Asia, and Africa are populated and governed by their native peoples. South America is populated and governed by an amalgamation of its indigenous people, alongside the mass rape offspring of the indigenous and European colonists

England comes to mind as an exception as well. You had the Celts. They got displaced by the Angles and the Saxons, they got at least partially replaced by the Normans.

 

[Sinister]

'Always there?' Meaning before Moses lead the Israelites to Israel over 1,000 years BC? Or were Palestinians were supposedly amongst them?

Regardless they either converted to Islam, or were conquered by Islam, and now their main goal is to genocide the Jews by any means necessary.

The modern-day Jews were right to cast them out then, in 1948, and they'd be right to cast them out of Gaza now after what happened 16 days ago. They've proven multiple times over 7 decades they're incapable of living in peace just besides the Jews.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. The people that were Palestinians and Isrealites are not really ethnically much different. Israelites emerged as a specific group of semitic people, they didn't magically appear of nowhere.

"Based on the archaeological evidence, according to the modern archaeological account, the Israelites and their culture did not overtake the region by force, but instead branched out of the indigenous Canaanite peoples that long inhabited the Southern Levant, Syria, ancient Israel, and the Transjordan region through a gradual evolution of a distinct monolatristic (later monotheistic) religion centered on Yahweh."

They are essentially the same people, who merely chose a different religion. And when there was both loss of population due to War and exodus, first the Palestinians who remained mostly became Christian, then were later Arabized.

And no, the goal of every Palestinian is not to genocide Jews. That's language merely meant to excuse genocide. Most Jihadist organizations like Hamas, as well as Zionist organizations are apocalypse-obsessed with their religiosity and are often bent on eradicating infidels.

 

[HomeCheese]

"Every country in the world has been occupied and snatched from its indigenous people.
what Isreal is doing can be viewed as a necessary evil"

I'd say evil begets evil.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. The people that were Palestinians and Isrealites are not really ethnically much different. Israelites emerged as a specific group of semitic people, they didn't magically appear of nowhere.

I understand perfectly what you're saying.
I really don't give a shit.

We can talk about blah blah blah took land on ____ year, and blah blah blah took it back on ____ year. The whole debate is reminiscent of reparations, except blacks don't want to take all of America for themselves and kill all the white people.

Which is why the debate of 'Palestinians should get their land back' is so ridiculous, and stating the merrits of the Palestinian case practically is endorsing their desire to perform a 2nd holocaust on the Jews.

____ took ____'s land decades/centuries/millenia ago? Well tough shit.

The real debate should be where the Palestinians should be allowed to relocate to.

 

[Sinister]

I understand perfectly what you're saying.
I really don't give a shit.

We can talk about blah blah blah took land on ____ year, and blah blah blah took it back on ____ year. The whole debate is reminiscent of reparations, except blacks don't want to take all of America for themselves and kill all the white people.

Which is why the debate of 'Palestinians should get their land back' is so ridiculous, and stating the merrits of the Palestinian case practically is endorsing their desire to perform a 2nd holocaust on the Jews.

____ took ____'s land decades/centuries/millenia ago? Well tough shit.

The real debate should be where the Palestinians should be allowed to relocate to.

So people who have been there since the region was initially settled should be forcibly relocated because of your feelings about the US...and Zionist rhetoric. Got it

 

[GearSolidMetal]

So people who have been there since the region was initially settled should be forcibly relocated because of your feelings about the US...and Zionist rhetoric. Got it

More like 'those people' have a terrorist group of the same kin as Al-Qaeda & ISIS embedded within their ranks and are willingly using 'those people' as human shields allowing them to target 1400 innocent men, women, and children just in the last 17 days.

You can disregard those facts as 'zionist rhetoric' all you like, they're still facts but you just don't like to acknowledge them.

So, as for whatever legal or historical argument Palestinians once had, they've lost all merit they may have had.

I refuse to condone terrorism under any conditions. Apparently you can't say the same.

And I'm sure you'd have a valid retort to that, so post it but be sure to start it off with.... 'Yes, Hamas/Palestinians murdered 1400 innocent men, women, & children, and taken 350 hostages, but....'

 

[mkess101]

So people who have been there since the region was initially settled should be forcibly relocated because of your feelings about the US...and Zionist rhetoric. Got it

So both groups were there since it was settled and both find it sacred, etc.

Guess it's easy to see whey they'll fight over it until the world ends...

 

[fishNjits]

So both groups were there since it was settled and both find it sacred, etc.

Guess it's easy to see whey they'll fight over it until the world ends...

It's really just East Jerusalem for which both Jews and Muslims have religious ties. The Temple Mount is said to have been where Muhammed ascended to heaven according to Islam. Judaism holds that is where Abraham and the binding of Isaac took place. It is historical fact that this is wear the Temple of Solomon stood. In the late 600's, the Dome of the Rock, now the third holiest site in Islam, was built on the same grounds as Solomon's Temple once stood.

Hebron might have some religious significance as that is supposedly where Abraham was buried.

 

[aus101]

Eh nah, Palestinians were always there, just prior to Isrealite presence they observed the Canaanite religion. They are semitic, same as Isrealites are. They werent Arabized until later with Isrealite population dwindled from the Jewish-Roman War.

But to suggest that Palestinians are not indigenous is factually incorrect.

Modern Palestinians may have trace genetics from
ancient times but they are clearly 99.999 percent Arab and minimal ancient Jew. I mean we know how the ancient Jews depicted themselves, there are many, many mosaics and other artworks of how they wished to be portrayed and it sure as hell wasn't Arab. Fact is modern Ashkenazi Jews are genetically closest to southern Mediterranean peoples. They appear most similar to southern Mediterranean people too. They don't look Arab. The images come from Galilee, near the modern Arab village of huqoq. The ancient Jewish settlement however was not continuously inhabited, and its people clearly replaced by the Arabs post the dark ages. I mean were these mosaics made by people claiming to be the ancient Jews while the actual Arab Palestinians lived in tents nearby? Where are the Palestinian Arab mosaics from 400 AD Galilee? There aren't any because the Arabs weren't there yet.

"Palestinians" (Arabs who lost their lands after arab invasions: 1948 edition) claim to be descended from the ancient Israelites who lived in the area since the time of David.

Meanwhile, this is how the ancient Jews actually depicted themselves in ancient Palestine.

Sampson with the temple on top of him.

Ancient Israelites sent by Moses to spy on the Canaanite's.

The high priests of Jerusalem meeting the Seleucids (with the ancient Macedonians portrayed as blonde and distinctly un-Slavic).

David mosaic in the huqoq synagogue at Galilee
looking very "brown middle eastern Arab-I mean jew".

Fact is Palestinians are Arabs who have absurdly co-opted history to claim that somehow they were the original inhabitants of a land history tells us they invaded in the dark age. Building sites like the dome of the rock atop ancient Jewish temples, and towns (like huqoq) near where ancient Jewish synagogues portray a more Mediterranean than Arab appearance of the ancient Jews.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

More like 'those people' have a terrorist group of the same kin as Al-Qaeda & ISIS embedded within their ranks and are willingly using 'those people' as human shields allowing them to target 1400 innocent men, women, and children just in the last 17 days.

You can disregard those facts as 'zionist rhetoric' all you like, they're still facts but you just don't like to acknowledge them.

So, as for whatever legal or historical argument Palestinians once had, they've lost all merit they may have had.

I refuse to condone terrorism under any conditions. Apparently you can't say the same.

And I'm sure you'd have a valid retort to that, so post it but be sure to start it off with.... 'Yes, Hamas/Palestinians murdered 1400 innocent men, women, & children, and taken 350 hostages, but....'

Do you believe Israel was justified to force the Palestinians out of theor homes in 1948?

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Do you believe Israel was justified to force the Palestinians out of theor homes in 1948?

I really don't give a shit about what happened to Palestinians by Israel, or vice-versa, several decades ago. Every Palestinian from 1948 are long dead, and given their mortality rate their offspring are mostly dead too. And the vast majority of the houses from 1948 have been demolished with new houses in their places.

The sad fact is at some point the definition of 'conquest' comes into the equation.

The Israelis forced the Palestinian out of their homes & lands. The Israelis were strong enough to do this and the Palestinians were weak so they couldn't prevent this. And since 1948, this has been the status quo with the Palestinians not able to take back their lands.

The Palestinians should be thankful the Israelis didn't genocide them, but instead hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have died in vain at not even trying to 'get their land back' but trying to kill innocent Israelis. Pretty backwards logic.

Ya'd think at some point over the last 70 years they'd lost their land. They don't even remember the family members who lost their land 70 years ago. So the death and destruction in the attempt to gain the land back.. when its not even know what property on which land belonged to which families, that may or may not still exist.

At some point its a question if they don't care about lands or houses... just like they don't care about their houses, hospitals, mosques, or schools being used a Hamas bases and the families are the human shields to protect them.

The land is just a smokescreen.
A manipulation.
A means to an end.

The real goal is about killing any or all Israelis.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Modern Palestinians may have trace genetics from
ancient times but they are clearly 99.999 percent Arab and minimal ancient Jew. I mean we know how the ancient Jews depicted themselves, there are many, many mosaics and other artworks of how they wished to be portrayed and it sure as hell wasn't Arab. Fact is modern Ashkenazi Jews are genetically closest to southern Mediterranean peoples. They appear most similar to southern Mediterranean people too. They don't look Arab. The images come from Galilee, near the modern Arab village of huqoq. The ancient Jewish settlement however was not continuously inhabited, and its people clearly replaced by the Arabs post the dark ages. I mean were these mosaics made by people claiming to be the ancient Jews while the actual Arab Palestinians lived in tents nearby? Where are the Palestinian Arab mosaics from 400 AD Galilee? There aren't any because the Arabs weren't there yet.

Palestinians do not look like Arabs. As in, people from the Arabian peninsula.
Palestinian genetics is a mix of an ancient Canaanite population with invaders and settlers from Europe, Arabia and some female black slaves.
Ashkenazi jews are heavily mixed with White Germanic people too. They're hardly the same as the original jews.