How special was Mirko Cro Cop?

[DayV]

If we nitpick different media rankings, plenty of HWs would surpass Mirko in ranked wins too..

No they would not.
Here is the thread by exactly the same method, that is based upon older sherdog threads and research.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/top-10-wins-of-mma-fighters-list.3383459/

 

[Taric]

You are totally rediculous.
One authentic ranking from that time is enough as long as it is genuine written evidence. Consensus established a long time ago on Sherdog forum by majority and users like Rester and Cofee and Beer who gathered genuine rankings for years and compiled legendary threads that used to exist on forum with authentic rankings collections. I only posted one ranking to illustrate, but mostly there are mlutiple. One authentic ranking that represents how were fighters valued at those times by media outfit that had kownledge of the MMA scene is 100% worth more than Fightmatrix and its sheneningans that did not exist at that time.
If some fighter today (like some top Bellator fighter who is not on UFC company rankings ) for example is not ranked on Fightmatrix or MMA Junkie, but is ranked on Sherdog, that is enough. He does not have to be ranked by all rankings, nor is that often possible. It is evidence enough that he was viewd as good fighter at this time.

Fightmatrix did not exist at those times.
Fightmatrix is crap computer retroactive formula shenenigans that had Schilt for example ranked as #1 HW in the world for more than a year in 2000 - 2001, and that is totally bullshit, that never was a fact, and MMA public never viewed it like that.
Keichiro Yamamiya ?? was #4 HW in the world according to Fightmatrix in october 2000?? LOL what crap.
https://www.fightmatrix.com/histori...ted-historical-rankings/?Issue=44&Division=-1

Considering Cro Cop, Fujita is not ranked in Top 10 by Fightmatrix in summer of 2001, but I can find you at least 3 different rankings (MMA Media, Quadros, Fighters Destiny) from that time where he was ranked Top10-Top5.

There are written evidences of authentis rankings from those times for at least 9 Cro Cop's ranked HW wins, and that is a fact.

If I looked hard enough, and into enough individual ranking websites, I could find 20 ranked victories for Big Nog... you can do that for literally any fighter that has enough wins against top 20 fighters. Some individual website somewhere is going to have the consensus #15 fighter ranked as the #10 fighter on their individual website.... there are literally hundreds of different MMA ranking websites. One of them is going to rank a fighter where you want him ranked.

That's the point of an aggregate website like Fightmatrix. To average that shit out with a sample size that's larger than 1. It's called analytics.

 

[DayV]

If I looked hard enough, and into enough individual ranking websites, I could find 20 ranked victories for Big Nog... you can do that for literally any fighter that has enough wins against top 20 fighters. Some individual website somewhere is going to have the consensus #15 fighter ranked as the #10 fighter on their individual website.... there are literally hundreds of different MMA ranking websites. One of them is going to rank a fighter where you want him ranked.

That's the point of an aggregate website like Fightmatrix. To average that shit out.

There were not "hundreds" of ranking sites in historic times. There were at most like 3-4 at the same time for each period in time during PRIDE years.
No, you cannot find much more, people allready looked for years and extensive & systematically, collected and posted it on forum.
Summary of those old threads:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/top-10-wins-of-mma-fighters-list.3383459/
No you cannot find 20 Top 10 HW wins for Nogueira, it has allready been researched by others in the past. And they found about 13 for him. You can give as much effort as you like, you won't find much more.

And they found Cro Cop to be among the top few HWs with greatest number of ranked wins.

 

[Taric]

There were not "hundreds" of ranking sites in historic times. There were at most like 3-4 at the same time for each period in time during PRIDE years.
No, you cannot find much more, people allready looked for years and extensive & systematically, collected and posted it on forum.
Summary of those old threads:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/top-10-wins-of-mma-fighters-list.3383459/
No you cannot find 20 Top 10 HW wins for Nogueira, it has allready been researched by others in the past. And they found about 13 for him. You can give as much effort as you like, you won't find much more.

And they found Cro Cop to be among the top few HWs with greatest number of ranked wins.

I can name a dozen MMA ranking websites that existed in the year 2003, the year I started watching MMA, literally off the top of my head.

MMA Weekly, Black Belt Magazine, Fight Sport Magazine, Tapology, Bleacher Report, Sherdog, ADCC, MMA Fighting, MMA Country, FC Fighter, Max fighting, MMA Ring Report, & Low Kick MMA

... literally off the top of my head.

And I'm pretty sure I didn't name one website that you mentioned or linked yourself, so you can add another dozen or so to my list as well.

There were hundreds of websites that did MMA rankings because there wasn't a large scale outlet for MMA news at the time. All opinions surrounding MMA were individualized because it was such a niche sport.

 

[DayV]

I can name a dozen MMA ranking websites that existed in the year 2003, the year I started watching MMA, literally off the top of my head.

MMA Weekly, Black Belt Magazine, Fight Sport Magazine, Tapology, Bleacher Report, Sherdog, ADCC, MMA Fighting, MMA Country, FC Fighter, Max fighting, MMA Ring Report, & Low Kick MMA

... literally off the top of my head.

And I'm pretty sure I didn't name one website that you mentioned or linked yourself, so you can add another dozen or so to my list as well.

There were hundreds of websites that did MMA rankings because there wasn't a large scale outlet for MMA news at the time. Nothing was aggregated. Everything was just pockets of information.

From those you mentioned, I linked for Cro Cop: MMA Weekly, Fight Sport, Sherdog that was part of MMA Media ranking,.

There were maybee like 20 something overall during all of the Pride years, and never more than 2-5 at the same time. Any of those is authentic and valid evidence that fighter was viewed as good by outfit that had significant knowledge of MMA scene at certain time.
Same method was applied for Cro Cop as for all other historically significant fighters by users and researchers who collected and compiled the old forum threads.

 

[Taric]

From those you mentioned, I linked for Cro Cop: MMA Weekly, Fight Sport, Sherdog that was part of MMA Media ranking,.

There were maybee like 20 something overall during all of the Pride years, and never more than 2-5 at the same time. Any of those is authentic and valid evidence that fighter was viewed as good by outfit that had significant knowledge of MMA scene at certain time.
Same method was applied for Cro Cop as for all other historically significant fighters by users and researchers who collected and compiled the old forum threads.

I just named 13 in the span of a minute that were all doing rankings 20 years ago at the exact same time you dolt.

You're just being intentionally dense at this point. I'm done with you.

 

[DayV]

I just named 13 in the span of a minute that were all doing rankings 20 years ago at the exact same time you dolt.

You're just being intentionally dense at this point.

Bleacher report and Tapology did not exist as rankings in Pride years before 2007.

No they were not doing it at the same time. They just did it overally speaking during Pride years which is period of 5+ years.
There was never more than 3-5 at the same time. One or two would stop and then few would appear, but not at the same time.

Here is an example of Fedor's ranked wins.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/anyone-remember-thread-w-rankings-of-fedors-opponents.2601403/

WIN - Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira - Mar / 16 / 2003 -- Pride 25 - Body Blow
1 hw - 2003 - Mar 4 - MMA News
1 hw - 2003 - MAR^ - Associated Fight Press-Fightsport
1 hw - 2003 - Feb 15 - MMA Media Top 10
1 hw - 2003 - Jan 31 - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll

As you can see, there are never more than 2-4 for individual win and time, because there simply were no other rankings active at that point in time.
The exactlly the same method was applied for Cro Cop by researchers and forum users who researched and posted it for years.

 

[the ambush]

CroCop is in my top 30 Fighters of all-time

 

[HHJ]

Without Cro Cop, I doubt I'd be as interested in MMA today, his highlights were what sucked me into MMA at first.

His LHK gave him an aura. He always was walkin around carrying an atomic bomb in his pocket. The way he walked dudes down was mad scary.

 

[moreorless87]

Do not post Fightmatrix backwards generated rankings for Pride era when the Fightmatrix site did not exist at that time.
Forget about Fightmatrix generated rankings that did not exist at those times. Fightmatrix did not exist before 2008.

Cro Cop has 9 Top 10 ranked wins by genuine and authentic rankings from those times such as MMA Weekly, MMA Collective - MMA ranks, MMA Media Top 10, Fightsport, Stephen Quadros, MMA News...

To be honest as well i think the idea of "rankings" didnt matter nearly as much back then,.

I think these days rankings often become as much about maximising hype, yeah some fighters decline after a bad loss but very often there much the same or indeed much the same before they build up a ranking.

The UFC system tends to be based on maximising a champs "ranked wins" but often is the win actually any better if it were a bit earlier or latter? for example was the Hunt that Fedor beat worse than the Hunt that Barnett beat a few months before? not really but he was ranked significantly lower.

Again as well it also depends on the idea that somehow "top 10" is a set standard when it isnt, its WAY easier to be top 10 today at HW than it was in 2007.

 

[crofighter]

I just named 13 in the span of a minute that were all doing rankings 20 years ago at the exact same time you dolt.

You're just being intentionally dense at this point. I'm done with you.

Fightmatrix is a complete joke of a website. Just one quick glance is all you need to conclude that. That site should be treated with 0 credibility.

 

[pankrat]

There were not "hundreds" of ranking sites in historic times. There were at most like 3-4 at the same time for each period in time during PRIDE years.
No, you cannot find much more, people allready looked for years and extensive & systematically, collected and posted it on forum.
Summary of those old threads:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/top-10-wins-of-mma-fighters-list.3383459/
No you cannot find 20 Top 10 HW wins for Nogueira, it has allready been researched by others in the past. And they found about 13 for him. You can give as much effort as you like, you won't find much more.

And they found Cro Cop to be among the top few HWs with greatest number of ranked wins.

It seems you fail to realize that hyping up Cro Cop for having a record number of wins over opponents ranked #9 or #10 (and not even consensus at that) doesnt do him any favour. If anything, it rather speaks about how Pride was trying to hype him up.

The rankings-based argument hurts Mirko since he severely lacks of top5 wins besides Barnett so to cling into questionable #9 or #10 ranks that werent even consensus at that is pretty lame and doesnt refflect his greatness and legacy. If anything, it tarnishes it.

Maybe you can as well look for someone with 20 top20 wins (and not even consensus at that) and declare him GOAT to follow up with your strategy here.

 

[pankrat]

Fightmatrix is a complete joke of a website. Just one quick glance is all you need to conclude that. That site should be treated with 0 credibility.

It's a joke for rankings from before the website was created, which was like a decade ago or so if Im not mistaken.
Since then, it's shoudnt be the reference source but its not as much of a joke imo

 

[Tweak896]

His LHK gave him an aura. He always was walkin around carrying an atomic bomb in his pocket. The way he walked dudes down was mad scary.

I mean it was back when I thought Kimbo was the baddest fighter on the planet, I see Cro Cop taking out someone like Bob Sapp in K1. My mind was blown what fighters could do.

 

[Dickie Greenleaf]

What Mirko did to Bonjasky was unreal.

 

[moreorless87]

Fightmatrix is a complete joke of a website. Just one quick glance is all you need to conclude that. That site should be treated with 0 credibility.

Really I think its a good advert for rankings having to be in some sense subjective, I don't care what stats say I KNOW Mirko beating Aleks in 2004 was a good win.

 

[DayV]

It seems you fail to realize that hyping up Cro Cop for having a record number of wins over opponents ranked #9 or #10 (and not even consensus at that) doesnt do him any favour. If anything, it rather speaks about how Pride was trying to hype him up.

The rankings-based argument hurts Mirko since he severely lacks of top5 wins besides Barnett so to cling into questionable #9 or #10 ranks that werent even consensus at that is pretty lame and doesnt refflect his greatness and legacy. If anything, it tarnishes it.

Maybe you can as well look for someone with 20 top20 wins (and not even consensus at that) and declare him GOAT to follow up with your strategy here.

Cro Cop does not lack Top5 wins in comparision with other greats. Fujita and Herring were Top 5, same as Aspinall or Pavlovich are now who do not have that extensive careers, or Tuivasa and Lewis were in 2021-2022.
And how would you treat if Gagne did managed to beat Jones, or Blachowicz's win over Adesanya who all moved up in weight as champions and challenged for the title, in comparison to Wanderlei.

Cain's Top 5 wins: JDS 2x, Nogueira, Bigfoot (only one), Lesnar
JDS's Top 5 wins: Werdum, Carwin, Cain, Mir, Rothwell, Lewis (Stipe was not)
Werdum's Top 5 wins: Alex Emelianenko, Gonzaga, Fedor, Cain, Browne, Hunt
Cro Cop has about the equal number of Top 5 ranked wins as them, he does not lack them.

Many fighters have #9 or #10 ranked wins.
You could say the same for anyone who beats Tybura, Jailton, Rozenstruik, Lewis... in recent time.

Most of ranking outfits were based in USA same as UFC, while Cro Cop was fighting in Japan.

 

[pankrat]

Cro Cop does not lack Top5 wins in comparision with other greats. Fujita and Herring were Top 5, same as Aspinall or Pavlovich are now who do not have that extensive careers, or Tuivasa and Lewis were in 2021-2022.
And how would you treat if Gagne did managed to beat Jones, or Blachowicz's win over Adesanya who all moved up in weight as champions and challenged for the title, in comparison to Wanderlei.

Cain's Top 5 wins: JDS 2x, Nogueira, Bigfoot (only one), Lesnar
JDS's Top 5 wins: Werdum, Carwin, Cain, Mir, Rothwell, Lewis (Stipe was not)
Werdum's Top 5 wins: Alex Emelianenko, Gonzaga, Fedor, Cain, Browne, Hunt
Cro Cop has about the equal number of Top 5 ranked wins as them, he does not lack them.

Many fighters have #9 or #10 ranked wins.
You could say the same for anyone who beats Tybura, Jailton, Rozenstruik, Lewis... in recent time.

Most of ranking outfits were based in USA same as UFC, while Cro Cop was fighting in Japan.

You said yourself: Fujita is among the 3 best opponents Cro Cop ever beat, accordding to rankings it seems.

Definitely pales in comparison with other greats and doesnt make him justice, doesnt matter how much of a meme you make of Derrik Lewis

 

[DayV]

You said yourself: Fujita is among the 3 best opponents Cro Cop ever beat, accordding to rankings it seems.

Definitely pales in comparison with other greats and doesnt make him justice, doesnt matter how much of a meme you make of Derrik Lewis

Not worse, specially in the term of status, than Gonzaga, Browne, Carwin, Bigfoot who count as Top 5 wins for other greats. They are simply new generation fighters who had benefit of a lot more being available to them on the silver platter than to the older generation, they were given the knowledge at the start that Fujita's generation was finding out for themselves. Status at the time of the fight is what counts and matters, and not if some fighter is better 20 years later. Undefeated Fujita with wins over Kerr, Shamrock, Yvel, Nijman was equally well deserved Top 5 at his time as Aspinall now, or Bigfoot or Gonzaga earlier.

 

[pankrat]

Not worse, specially in the term of status, than Gonzaga, Browne, Carwin, Bigfoot who count as Top 5 wins for other greats. They are simply new generation fighters who had benefit of a lot more being available to them on the silver platter than to the older generation, they were given the knowledge at the start that Fujita's generation was finding out for themselves. Status at the time of the fight is what counts and matters, and not if some fighter is better 20 years later. Undefeated Fujita with wins over Kerr, Shamrock, Yvel, Nijman was equally well deserved Top 5 at his time as Aspinall now, or Bigfoot or Gonzaga earlier.

Status is rather subjective, and depends heavily on how a fighter is promoted.
I guess you can say Aspinall or Pavlovich are as good wins as Fujita based on "status".
Fuiita got in MMA around same time than Mirko btw

If you acknowledge lesser knowledge of the sport for those generation fighters to cling into the "status" analogy, you cant claim that modern HW is inferior to 20 years ago