How terrible is the UFC at promoting?

[SwiftHennessy]

True or not, this youtuber has the benefit of using any footage he finds, without paying for it.


Great video though

Good point I hadn’t thought about that

 

[Glove]

They need to go back to the Gladiator intro.

 

[Iroh]

You said a smart businessman can sell anything. Why make that statement if it's just a meaningless one that you have no proof for?

No, I didn't say that and just a tip sayings aren't to be taken completely literal, there's a essential principle that can be tested and proven.

First of all the UFC is an MMA promotion, and they're the most successful one in the world, so they are "the most successful MMA promotion" by definition.

I never denied that, so not sure why you are pointing that out.

Second of all if success depends on a lot more than promotion, then that must mean you don't need the best promotion to achieve the best success in the first place, and since the UFC's ultimate goal as a business is to succeed, why should they care about creating the best promos in the first place, as long as they can achieve the greatest success?

No, that's not how it works. I'll put it like this, mind you this is simplified a lot. If you have the factors timing, investors, name associations, business deals behind doors and promotion.

If the UFC scores like an 10 for timing as it was the first promotion, a 9.5 in investors as the fertitias didn't only invest money, but also time and effort with a lot of efficiency, name association an 8 for a big traditional martial arts family to give legitimacy to the initial project in the world of martial arts, and business deals a 8.5 for all the acquisitions they made, TV deals and sponsors they got and score a 4 for the current state of promotion.

Then they score a 40/50 and obviously they could score more, and this doesn't take into account that not all factors reality have equal influence and effect. Timing and the gracie name helped make the foundation mostly, the fertitas too (though current investors would score less) but also helped with overall progress, business deals and promotions however are factors that have the most influence of the direct revenue with promotion being the most frequently common variable.

Then if for example Bellator scores 5.5 for timing, investors 6 as it's mainly just financial I think, name association uhm Coker had a good rep from previous jobs but that doesn't really make a big dent in the climate they started in so a 3, business deals 5.5 and promotion (for sake of the argument) a 8.

So combined 28/50

So nor does it mean that the UFC can't have bigger success because they could score a 50/50 nor does it mean that they are more successful than Bellator because they have better promotion. But even if they left out the score of their promotion completely, they'd still be better than Bellator.

Like I said, if you can point to an actual example of another promotion doing it better and turning fighters the UFC cannot promote into stars, then you'd have a good point on where they can improve, otherwise this is just armchair quarterbacking and excuses that mean little to nothing. This is the same as those coulda woulda shoulda arguments fighters make after they get destroyed in a fight.

No this is just analyzing a company based on many factors, those many factors can't all be shown in one example. But for sake of your need for an example, Ryan Bader is a bigger name in Bellator than in the UFC. But a more relevant comparison would be comparing UFC posters to Pride posters or even music festival posters or many other visual product advertisement.

But making comparisons as the deciding factor is already the wrong way to approach it, promotion is about creating and creating is about making new things not looking back at other stuff. Just like if you have the best performing car in the world, you can compare it with any other car and you can say none of them perform better, thus you can't do it better. But that has been shown false over and over again, cus they keep creating better performing cars. They keep creating new advances without doing what any other company did.

 

[Deleted member 436105]

They’ve never had a promo vid as good as GSP/Shields. That was actually creative instead of the usual insert fighter interview clips and Rogan/Goldberg(who’s been gone almost two years) shouting OHHHHHHH!

 

[FrankieNYC]

Enjoying reading the @LouisBolanos & @Dr Hannibal Lecter debate
Good stuff on both sides

 

[LouisBolanos]

No, I didn't say that and just a tip sayings aren't to be taken completely literal, there's a essential principle that can be tested and proven.

It's not a principle, it's just a statement of hyperbole, in the same vein as "if you put your mind to it you can accomplish anything". That doesn't mean you can actually accomplish anything, or that if you didn't accomplish something, you didn't put your mind to it. Similarly, just because there're great fighters in the UFC who are not stars, doesn't mean the UFC didn't do a good job at promoting them, because there's no proof that any of them would become big stars with superior promotion. This is why I keep asking you to give me actual examples where others succeeded while UFC failed, because without them this is just armchair quarterbacking.

No, that's not how it works. I'll put it like this, mind you this is simplified a lot. If you have the factors timing, investors, name associations, business deals behind doors and promotion.

It doesn't matter how it works, what matters is that it works: the UFC is indeed the most successful promotion by far, so whatever they're doing as a whole is working far better than anyone else in that space.

If the UFC scores like an 10 for timing as it was the first promotion, a 9.5 in investors as the fertitias didn't only invest money, but also time and effort with a lot of efficiency, name association an 8 for a big traditional martial arts family to give the initial project in the world of martial arts, and business deals a 8.5 for all the acquisitions the made, TV deals and sponsors they got and score a 4 for the current state of promotion.

Again, this is woulda coulda shoulda argument. What if scenarios are not reality. The bottom line is you cannot point to any actual example of a more successful promoter in the MMA space, one that outperforms the UFC, you have no practical example of what demonstrably superior promotion looks like, it's just your imagination.

But making comparisons as the deciding factor is already the wrong way to approach it, promotion is about creating and creating is about making new things not looking back at other stuff.

Comparison is 100% the right way to do it. How do you gauge the success of a business or promotion, if not look at its track record? As long as UFC remains the leader in the MMA space and their lead over the other promotions is maintained, they're doing the best job.

Just like if you have the best performing car in the world, you can compare it with any other car and you can say none of them perform better, thus you can't do it better. But that has been shown false over and over again, cus they keep creating better performing cars. They keep creating new advances without doing what any other company did.

Nobody said they can't improve, I said in the very beginning nothing is perfect, but whether something is "bad" or "good" is relative and depends every bit on how it compares to available competition. There is no perfect car, but if a car is better than every other car in the market, how on earth can you call it bad? How do you call something bad when it's the best version of it existence? This is why I'm saying this is armchair quarterbacking, because you're comparing the UFC to some imaginary god tier promotion that doesn't exist, when in reality they're the best in the business and there're not examples of a greater success.

 

[Brock-B-level-Athlete]

they are very bad when it comes to that... P4P one of the worst.
pay some people from japan and they will give you better quality for much less money.

 

[Brock-B-level-Athlete]

lmao just have a look at her website... like a 10-year-old put it together.

Even a 14-year-old Russian boi would have done a better job.

 

[p4pgoat]

Pretty bad. I mean just listen to Dana hype up Ngannou in his latest interview...

 

[Iroh]

It's not a principle, it's just a statement of hyperbole, in the same vein as "if you put your mind to it you can accomplish anything". That doesn't mean you can actually accomplish anything, or that if you didn't accomplish something, you didn't put your mind to it. Similarly, just because there're great fighters in the UFC who are not stars, doesn't mean the UFC didn't do a good job at promoting them, because there's no proof that any of them would become big stars with superior promotion. This is why I keep asking you to give me actual examples where others succeeded while UFC failed, because without them this is just armchair quarterbacking.

Ignores the fact that I have repeatedly reminded him I didn't use the saying. Ignores the fact I have given several examples. It renders this debate pointless if you keep that up.

It doesn't matter how it works, what matters is that it works: the UFC is indeed the most successful promotion by far, so whatever they're doing as a whole is working far better than anyone else in that space.

If you disregard how it works you can make zero predictions and you can not argue against any prediction I have, if you can't make one yourself. Because saying I would be wrong is making a prediction.

Bud, you're talking nonsense, because you've dug your heels in and are barely even considering what I say, simply because you refuse to admit you might be wrong.

Again, this is woulda coulda shoulda argument. What if scenarios are not reality. The bottom line is you cannot point to any actual example of a more successful promoter in the MMA space, one that outperforms the UFC, you have no practical example of what demonstrably superior promotion looks like, it's just your imagination.

You don't understand progress, bud. Nor logic, for that matter. You just understand easily digestible results.

Woulda coulda shoulda arguments are how business plans are made including all of UFC's business plans.

Comparison is 100% the right way to do it. How do you gauge the success of a business or promotion, if not look at its track record? As long as UFC remains the leader in the MMA space and their lead over the other promotions is maintained, they're doing the best job.

It's called innovation. It's almost like you take it personal that someone suggests the UFC is subpar in a certain aspect, the way you aren't even trying to understand my arguments.

Nobody said they can't improve, I said in the very beginning nothing is perfect, but whether something is "bad" or "good" is relative and depends every bit on how it compares to available competition. There is no perfect car, but if a car is better than every other car in the market, how on earth can you call it bad? How do you call something bad when it's the best version of it existence? This is why I'm saying this is armchair quarterbacking, because you're comparing the UFC to some imaginary god tier promotion that doesn't exist, when in reality they're the best in the business and there're not examples of a greater success.

If you take the best car of the 70's in the 70's and you would say it is terrible in comparison to what is possible, you'd be correct, because in 2018 every bit of engineering is obsolete, and I venture to say that if you take the 2018 best car it is a completely horrendous performance vehicle compared to what will be the best car in 2118. Do I need proof? Do you doubt that technology will keep advancing? It's just how progress works.

People who actually work on promotion do care how it works and not just that it works. Because they want to be able to replicate and improve on what works. So you need to know how it works and if you understand how it works, you will understand that promotion can be compared across different industries if you take all other variables into account. Not just in one particular industry. Take it from someone who studied marketing.

 

[KeepItRealist]

They seem to think it's on the fighters to promote themselves. That being the case, they should stop referring to themselves as a promotional organization. They sanction matches and collect site fees while letting people think they pay a fortune to rent the venues. I use to chuckle every time Lorenzo would try to explain low fighter pay by saying they had to rent the venues, which even if that were the case in some places, isn't going to be a lot. Small local organizations rent these venues all the time while the casinos pay millions to host big events.

 

[LouisBolanos]

Ignores the fact that I have repeatedly reminded him I didn't use the saying. Ignores the fact I have given several examples. It renders this debate pointless if you keep that up.

You said. "A smart business man can sell crap to anybody. So a smart business man should not have any trouble with selling a good quality product like MMA". I asked for an example of someone in the MMA space selling better than the UFC, and you only give excuses. Like I said, without actual examples this is just empty armchair quarterbacking.

If you disregard how it works you can make zero predictions and you can not argue against any prediction I have, if you can't make one yourself. Because saying I would be wrong is making a prediction.

Bud, you're talking nonsense, because you've dug your heels in and are barely even considering what I say, simply because you refuse to admit you might be wrong.

Still waiting for an actual example of greater success than the UFC. All I'm getting are excuses.

You don't understand progress, bud. Nor logic, for that matter. You just understand easily digestible results.

Where the evidence of this progress you're talking about? When Netflix started gaining traction, you could provide actual evidence in their increased market share and Blockbuster's shrinking revenue. Where's this evidence in the MMA space that indicates the UFC is losing its market lead and the other organizations are making greater progress?

Woulda coulda shoulda arguments are how business plans are made including all of UFC's business plans.

No, business plans are made based on detailed market analysis, future projection, quarterly performance reviews, not empty woulda coulda shouldas. If you want to prove that someone can do a better job than the UFC, the burden is on you to provide actual evidence

If you take the best car of the 70's in the 70's and you would say it is terrible in comparison to what is possible, you'd be correct, because in 2018 every bit of engineering is obsolete, and I venture to say that if you take the 2018 best car it is a completely horrendous performance vehicle compared to what will be the best car in 2118. Do I need proof? Do you doubt that technology will keep advancing? It's just how progress works.

By your logic, everything is terrible and you should never buy anything, because technology will always continue to improve and the phone 5 years down the line will be vastly superior to the best phone we have today. Again, this is textbook hindsight 20/20 empty armchair quarterbacking. You're literally shitting on 70s tech for being horrible because we have much better stuff 50 years later. I mean you might as well shit on someone for being so stupid he didn't even buy the winning lottery ticket after the numbers get announced.

If you want to gauge UFC's success as a promotion, compare it to another promotion that actually exists, not some imaginary company that's going to show up 30 years in the future.

People who actually work on promotion do care how it works and not just that it works. Because they want to be able to replicate and improve on what works. So you need to know how it works and if you understand how it works, you will understand that promotion can be compared across different industries if you take all other variables into account. Not just in one particular industry. Take it from someone who studied marketing.

Oh my you studied marketing? Can you point me to your personal marketing success that blows the UFC out of the water? It's fine if it's in a different industry. I want an actual example, not excuses or woulda shoudla coudas. You're like that guy who "studied automotive engineering" shitting on the best car on the market saying how much it sucks, because "cars 30 year in the future will contain innovative technology and be way better".

 

[Irresponsible Dad]

Hollywood is worse at promos than mobsters... Dana is so confused right now

 

[Iroh]

You said. "A smart business man can sell crap to anybody. So a smart business man should not have any trouble with selling a good quality product like MMA". I asked for an example of someone in the MMA space selling better than the UFC, and you only give excuses. Like I said, without actual examples this is just empty armchair quarterbacking.

Selling is not the sole result of promotion, so it's an irrelevant question. You are the one making excuses, because you can only think in absolutes.

Still waiting for an actual example of greater success than the UFC. All I'm getting are excuses.

Just because I don't indulge you with your unreasonable demands doesn't mean you should discard it as excuses. It means you should reevaluate what you think my stance is.

Where the evidence of this progress you're talking about? When Netflix started gaining traction, you could provide actual evidence in their increased market share and Blockbuster's shrinking revenue. Where's this evidence in the MMA space that indicates the UFC is losing its market lead and the other organizations are making greater progress?

Bud, you have missed the complete point of my argument if you think I said there is a decline in their market position. But like I said, you only think in absolutes, so if I say it's bad, then you draw that to an absolute. That's your misinterpretation.

No, business plans are made based on detailed market analysis,

^ The coulda, what could be possible based on the market

future projection,

Woulda ^ what would happen given the current course.

quarterly performance reviews,

Shoulda^ reviewing what has been done and what should have been done better

not empty woulda coulda shouldas. If you want to prove that someone can do a better job than the UFC, the burden is on you to provide actual evidence[.quote]

I never even suggested I wanted to prove anything, bud. Where did you get that from?

[quote[By your logic, everything is terrible and you should never buy anything, because technology will always continue to improve and the phone 5 years down the line will be vastly superior to the best phone we have today. Again, this is textbook hindsight 20/20 empty armchair quarterbacking. You're literally shitting on 70s tech for being horrible because we have much better stuff 50 years later. I mean you might as well shit on someone for being so stupid he didn't even buy the winning lottery ticket after the numbers get announced.

It depends on the terms and the demand. The average person doesn't need a high performance car to begin with, so he doesn't judge a car in terms of what is possible and by the maximum achieved accomplishments, so for that person it's not terrible. But if you are a company trying to get the best results possible and you don't think things coulda be a lot better, you'll be left behind by the competition who understands there is always progress to be made.

If you want to gauge UFC's success as a promotion, compare it to another promotion that actually exists, not some imaginary company that's going to show up 30 years in the future.

I haven't. I am not gauging or judging the UFC's overall success, just it's promotion. Already compared it.

Oh my you studied marketing? Can you point me to your personal marketing success that blows the UFC out of the water? It's fine if it's in a different industry. I want an actual example, not excuses or woulda shoudla coudas. You're like that guy who "studied automotive engineering" shitting on the best car on the market saying how much it sucks, because "cars 30 year in the future will contain innovative technology and be way better".

I haven't made my work out of it and it wasn't my main study. That doesn't mean I can't judge it. You don't even seem to know what the parameters are for judging it, yet you still judge it.

 

[Air Lats]

Terrible.
They're fallen into the classic corporate marketing trap of developing a template as the organization standard and fitting every promo and poster to those templates regardless of the narrative or gravity of the fight. I mean we'll rarely get something super creative, but even that usually pales in comparison to fanmade stuff.
It's so weird because the UFC's buisness model is based on independently marketing individual events - but I think during the UFC's boom like around UFC 100 they got into the mindset that they could put zero effort into marketing and sell the fight regardless.

That's why they are where they are now. They have just enough brand recognition and few enough stars that they're in this weird space that when they do produce something creative and fresh non-UFC fans don't know what the promo is even for until the end of the promo when they've already lost interest. So they're trapped being wholly reliant on the name recognition of individual fights to sell fights, except they're so bad at marketing at the moment that they can't create stars to save their life they have to back into them with special freaks like Conor and Jon Jones - or hope they get some smasher like Khabib to say something crazy on the mic.

No wonder they jump on every fighter controversy to take onto the front of promos, from "Yo Mamma Got Tickets" press conference punch, to *insert Jon Jones transgression here* to Conor throwing a dolly. They spend so little on marketing that they can't create or capture an organic narrative at all, they have to hope for some big splashy media event that everyones already heard of to push their campaigns along.