Economy I <3 how (R)s just awkwardly ignore conversations about economics and their track record on it

I actually saw the movie and liked it. I doubt anything Libs use as derogatory hurts righties feelings because lefties are seen as the blue haired triggered group. You let people like AOC, Tlaib, Omar, Newsome become the face. The ones that support things like no bail, legalized shoplifting, men in women's sports etc. Even if you make a few points, you are so angry and upset that you lose any credibility. I could give a shit about the Trump cult. But to sit here and say Biden is better for the economy, when WE ALL feel that it is not.... literally feel it....high interest rates, insane inflation on food etc. And quietly the banks are doing the same shit they did in 08-09....handing out loans on houses at HIGHER interest rates at HIGHER inflated home prices. It is truly unbelievable. I feel like we have all been tricked into taking extreme sides instead of working together to compromise and make things better.
This guy is living in an alternate timeline where Trump won the 2020 election and his comrades didn't storm the capitol and become the laughing stock of the world.

It's nice to see that the theory holds true that conservatives are permanently stuck in 2016. Blue haired triggered people? Lol? Did you just finish watching an sjw owned compilation? Then you proceed to name a bunch of non blue haired minority women?? Lmao.

Dude, mainstream society, which is liberal culture, sees MAGA as a literal cult, comprised of people who are stereotyped as frothing at the mouth zealous fanatics. And that's just domestically. That's how domestic US mainstream culture sees MAGA since 2020. The rest of the developed world is far more to the left than the US is, and has basically always seen MAGA as fanatical rabid freaks.

You spend way way too much time in your right wing media bubble. You seem to have no self awareness of how the rest of society truly sees your political group.
 
It's weird that @blackheart calls people who disagree with him "reactionaries." Pining for an imaginary past glory is the essence of reactionary politics.
"Pining for an imaginary past glory" =/= looking at charts of economic indicators and pointing out that those indicators were much better in decades gone by. Such a dishonest characterization of what I'm saying, Jack.

Jack on a road trip, probably:
*suddenly the road becomes shitty and gets worse and worse with each passing mile*
"Hey dad?? Maybe we should turn around. The road was in way better condition back there"
Jack - "son, stop Pining for an imaginary past glory"
"Dad I'm just saying the road was literally physically better back there and this road is falling apart"
"Nah nah I've heard enough you little reactionary "
 
"Pining for an imaginary past glory" =/= looking at charts of economic indicators and pointing out that those indicators were much better in decades gone by. Such a dishonest characterization of what I'm saying, Jack.
Economic indicators as a whole indicate a MUCH higher living standard for today's Americans. And, I mean, you don't even need them as the gap is so large it's easily visible with cruder tools.
 
"Pining for an imaginary past glory" =/= looking at charts of economic indicators and pointing out that those indicators were much better in decades gone by. Such a dishonest characterization of what I'm saying, Jack.

Jack on a road trip, probably:
*suddenly the road becomes shitty and gets worse and worse with each passing mile*
"Hey dad?? Maybe we should turn around. The road was in way better condition back there"
Jack - "son, stop Pining for an imaginary past glory"
"Dad I'm just saying the road was literally physically better back there and this road is falling apart"
"Nah nah I've heard enough you little reactionary "


lol you do realize the feds moved rates to zero under Trump right? And if Trump had stayed in office how exactly would he have combated this world wide inflation ?


Again the right demonizes intelligence for a reason
 
Social services are way, way better now than they were in the '50s.

A higher corporate tax rate isn't necessarily better, either. Remember that the cost of taxation isn't the dollar value being taxed (which generally just gets spent back in the private sector). It's deadweight loss; crowding out of other, more economically efficient spending; and potentially distributional effects (often but not always good).

Eh, again this requires specific lenses. Aggregate spending on welfare is higher, but who did that make it better for?

"there has been a redistribution away from non-elderly and non-disabled families to families with older adults and to families with recipients of disability programs, a redistribution away from non-elderly nondisabled single parent families to married parent families, and a redistribution of transfers away from the poorest families to those with higher incomes. These redistributions likely reflect long-standing, and perhaps increasing, conceptualizations by U.S. society of which poor are deserving and which are not."


Point being the welfare system was always biased. And that that bias not only still exists, but has had a contractionary effect on the impact of the welfare state.

The US has ranked pretty low with regard to the well-being of children in developed Nations, 34th out of 35 in 2016:


And leave us not forget that right this second Republicans rejected renewal of the child tax credit for families, and are currently doing sh*t like rejecting Federal funding for free school lunches on the State level, rolling back child labor laws, and interfering with municipal Government regulations on businesses. The common trend in the US is for the political and economic landscape to be shaped with the highest regard for the needs of the capitalists, who then are going to shower us with their affection in terms of lucrative jobs, and innovative products at amazing prices. Except that on the consumer level, the opposite is being perceived. Now I dont think that's ENTIRELY the case, but it is the case with a lot of people...hence our being also relatively poorly ranked in perceived happiness.

It seems to me that this discussion hinges on who we're talking about . People who are hurting right now definitely dont feel like their worlds are particularly awesome. There is almost little chance of affording homes. My wife is a quasi-Governmental employee and even she has said "you know, I did everything right. I got a degree, I got the good job with the pension, I should be able to afford a house." And she has been there for 15 years, their COL increases dont do much. We cant afford one with our combined incomes without becoming house poor. Conservatives would put that on us as being irresponsible or something, but our biggest expense has been her chronic auto-immune condition, which has been expensive even with insurance. Hell we have "good insurance" and when my kid broke his wrist they tried to charge us $14k for the ER visit. We had to fight them to get it down to $1,500, but it makes you wonder how many people arent savvy enough to do that.

There are aspects of times past that were better, and ones that were worse. There were good ideas that were eventually eliminated, and bad ideas that were implemented.
 
Wrong. Banks are not doing what they did before, they don’t have stated income loans. If anything it’s become much more difficult to qualify. The rates are high and the home prices are high because of inventory. It’s simple supply and demand.
But WHY is supply so low? You act like you're describing acts of nature. Like you're simply describing high tide and low. But WHY is it this way? Because of the incentive structures in place, which are brought to you by capitalism.
 
Eh, again this requires specific lenses. Aggregate spending on welfare is higher, but who did that make it better for?

"there has been a redistribution away from non-elderly and non-disabled families to families with older adults and to families with recipients of disability programs, a redistribution away from non-elderly nondisabled single parent families to married parent families, and a redistribution of transfers away from the poorest families to those with higher incomes. These redistributions likely reflect long-standing, and perhaps increasing, conceptualizations by U.S. society of which poor are deserving and which are not."


Point being the welfare system was always biased. And that that bias not only still exists, but has had a contractionary effect on the impact of the welfare state.
I appreciate the info and time put into the snipped portion, but let's stop a second here. In 1955, we didn't even have Medicaid or Medicare. Of course even rich people had shitty healthcare by modern standards, but still. Just that one change should blow away any sense that benefits have gotten worse. Nutritional supplements were also basically nonexistent then (piloted during the Great Depression, but didn't really start developing to our modern system until the '60s). Disability insurance didn't come about until '56 (and it wasn't nearly as good as it is now). The poverty rate was much higher, and even the median American lived in conditions we'd consider poverty-level now.

I'm not saying that we're living in the best *possible* world, that everything is perfect, or even that I don't favor some big changes (the expanded CTC cut child poverty in half and absolutely should be brought back and expanded just to list one thing). But there hasn't been a time in our history when things were better. I think we should look to the future for more, but there isn't some glorious past that we have fallen from, as rightists imagine.
 
But WHY is supply so low? You act like you're describing acts of nature. Like you're simply describing high tide and low. But WHY is it this way? Because of the incentive structures in place, which are brought to you by capitalism.
It's actually the opposite. Interventions in the market by property owners and gov'ts have the effect of reducing supply and increasing prices. If we just allowed markets to work, housing prices would come down a lot.
 
It's actually the opposite. Interventions in the market by property owners and gov'ts have the effect of reducing supply and increasing prices. If we just allowed markets to work, housing prices would come down a lot.
That's always your crowds solution to any problem - more capitalism. Never take a look at the track record of failure. Just do MORE of what you've been doing.

"Interventions in the market by property owners". I get and know what you're saying. Its just funny to hear property owners being greedy pueces of shit, described as "interventions in the market".

Yes - property owners are a huge part of the problem in that they organize locally to constrain and restrict housing supply.

So what is your solution? Shrug and say it'll resolve itself eventually? Or how about a variety of regulations/laws/policies to shut down that sort of behavior and force through new supply? Why isn't the market regulating itself here???

Genuine question - do you support the housing policies of a place like Vienna? Why or why not?
 
I appreciate the info and time put into the snipped portion, but let's stop a second here. In 1955, we didn't even have Medicaid or Medicare. Of course even rich people had shitty healthcare by modern standards, but still. Just that one change should blow away any sense that benefits have gotten worse. Nutritional supplements were also basically nonexistent then (piloted during the Great Depression, but didn't really start developing to our modern system until the '60s). Disability insurance didn't come about until '56 (and it wasn't nearly as good as it is now). The poverty rate was much higher, and even the median American lived in conditions we'd consider poverty-level now.

I'm not saying that we're living in the best *possible* world, that everything is perfect, or even that I don't favor some big changes (the expanded CTC cut child poverty in half and absolutely should be brought back and expanded just to list one thing). But there hasn't been a time in our history when things were better. I think we should look to the future for more, but there isn't some glorious past that we have fallen from, as rightists imagine.

We have above 90% of Americans with health insurance, and 41% with health care debt. We have people foregoing cancer treatment because they cannot afford it, and drug prices that have people rationing life-saving medicines while corporations testify before regulatory bodies that they simply will not lower the cost for Americans to match other markets that have different prices. The consumer debt balance is $17.1 TRILLION. That's absurd. The sentiment that this is the best time is relative. It's kind of like boxing, each generation thinks theirs is the best there ever was. The Sullivan era was the best, despite the overt racism. The Jack Johnson era was the best, despite the overt racism. The Joe Louis era was the best (watch the documentary "Joe Louis: America's Hero Betrayed," the guy was maliciously economically ruined by the Government), the Ali era was the best, the Tyson era...all the way to now. By many economic metrics this is the most prosperous the Sport has ever been, and yet you cannot be a fighter starting out without a day job anymore. So to be a fighter you need to be willing to work 2 jobs. It doesnt seem prosperous to the fighters who grind out existences in the Sport, because the money is concentrated at the top, in the hands of those who do not, and will never fight.

There's nothing wrong with looking back at good ideas that were cut by the corporatists, IMO.
 
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That's always your crowds solution to any problem - more capitalism. Never take a look at the track record of failure. Just do MORE of what you've been doing.

"Interventions in the market by property owners". I get and know what you're saying. Its just funny to hear property owners being greedy pueces of shit, described as "interventions in the market".

Yes - property owners are a huge part of the problem in that they organize locally to constrain and restrict housing supply.

So what is your solution? Shrug and say it'll resolve itself eventually? Or how about a variety of regulations/laws/policies to shut down that sort of behavior and force through new supply? Why isn't the market regulating itself here???

Genuine question - do you support the housing policies of a place like Vienna? Why or why not?
My solution is to fight NIMBYism in local elections, support anti-NIMBY legislation at the state level (we've had a rash of that in CA over the past few years), and promote development at the national level. When it comes to personal donations for me, it's always to YIMBY groups rather than partisan stuff.
 
Economic indicators as a whole indicate a MUCH higher living standard for today's Americans. And, I mean, you don't even need them as the gap is so large it's easily visible with cruder tools.
You've never provided a single chart, link, or anything, to substantiate that claim. And you've yet to address any one of the numerous charts/data I've posted, in this thread and others, that run contrary to your claim.

I mean you can just say "indicators as a whole indicate a much higher living standard". But it doesn't mean anything until you substantiate the claim. Which you haven't done, and never do.
 
My solution is to fight NIMBYism in local elections, support anti-NIMBY legislation at the state level (we've had a rash of that in CA over the past few years), and promote development at the national level. When it comes to personal donations for me, it's always to YIMBY groups rather than partisan stuff.
Love it. I know that for the most part, your heart is in the right place.
 
You've never provided a single chart, link, or anything, to substantiate that claim. And you've yet to address any one of the numerous charts/data I've posted, in this thread and others, that run contrary to your claim.

I mean you can just say "indicators as a whole indicate a much higher living standard". But it doesn't mean anything until you substantiate the claim. Which you haven't done, and never do.
What do you want? Median family income adjusted for inflation (but not for family size) was less than half of what it is today in 1955. That alone should shut the door on this. Doesn't require a microscope here. You just gotta have eyes.
 
What do you want? Median family income adjusted for inflation (but not for family size) was less than half of what it is today in 1955. That alone should shut the door on this. Doesn't require a microscope here. You just gotta have eyes.
Median family income adjusted for inflation doesn't mean a whole lot without the context of the relative cost of things at that time i.e. purchasing power. Also I don't get the fixation on 1955. I gave a broad range of decades when economic indicators were better than they are now. But for whatever reason there is this hyperfixation on 1955?? I would point to the early 70s as to when things were most ideal economically. Also - things were getting pretty fucking good for civil rights around that time as well.
 
Median family income adjusted for inflation doesn't mean a whole lot without the context of the relative cost of things at that time i.e. purchasing power. Also I don't get the fixation on 1955. I gave a broad range of decades when economic indicators were better than they are now. But for whatever reason there is this hyperfixation on 1955?? I would point to the early 70s as to when things were most ideal economically. Also - things were getting pretty fucking good for civil rights around that time as well.
What does the phrase "adjusted for inflation" mean to you? I'm not the one who brought up 1955. But gosh, things are way, way better than they were in the early '70s too. Median family income is up a lot since the high point of that period.
 
But WHY is supply so low? You act like you're describing acts of nature. Like you're simply describing high tide and low. But WHY is it this way? Because of the incentive structures in place, which are brought to you by capitalism.


Rates kept artificially low for too long. Prices in homes increased 20-25% because of 2020-2021 low mortgage rates
 
Rates kept artificially low for too long. Prices in homes increased 20-25% because of 2020-2021 low mortgage rates

Well, there's also a current lawsuit against the NAR for artificial inflation of the market.
 
Yes, the republicans are rich people pandering to poor voters, same as with the democrats. They just pander to different groups of poor people.
 
Yes, the republicans are rich people pandering to poor voters, same as with the democrats. They just pander to different groups of poor people.
Poor people aren't actually that electorally powerful. Minority of the population and they are much less likely to vote or otherwise be involved in politics.

The issue is that the GOP as an institution is almost solely committed to policy that has the effect of upward redistribution. Note how Trump's only major legislation was another big tax cut for the rich and he proposed but barely failed huge cuts in gov't provided healthcare, and going forward, he's proposing more tax cuts for the rich along with a tax increase on the middle class. They get popular support for that agenda by stirring up cultural resentments, and they try to argue that policy that has a first-order effect of upward redistribution leads to higher growth. But the record does not support that claim (to say the least!).
 
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