If we think about it logically of what it means to the GOAT, then you can never lose to a CAN

[ComfortablyNumb55]

I don't know what's going on here, but TS is passionate and I don't have the heart to tell him to STFU.

Good thread, buddy.

 

[waldywaldy]

Well then what metric do you have for determining a GOAT? Say for argument sake you believe in the idea of a GOAT of each division, and the idea of a P4P GOAT and an all time GOAT

That's a lot of goats

 

[HHJ]

GOAT doesnt exist. Thats what you should have wrote.

 

[Fioretti]

It's about accomplishments.

 

[Dog Gynecologist]

I don't know too much about Matt Serra but wasn't he a can?

It's a bit harsh, excepted Shonie Carter, he only lost to top 10 fighter of his time (Chris Lytle, Karo Parysian, Din Thomas) and 3 of the greatest fighter ever (GSP, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn).
He's was maybe the equivalent of Neil Magny, a tough gatekeeper to the top 10. If you put Neil Magny in front of Usman, i believe there's a 1 out of 100 chance he KO's him, like Serra with GSP.

 

[Banana Tree's Nemesis]

Yes but some metrics need to exist.

Title defenses.

 

[Davidjacksonjones]

It's a bit harsh, excepted Shonie Carter, he only lost to top 10 fighter of his time (Chris Lytle, Karo Parysian, Din Thomas) and 3 of the greatest fighter ever (GSP, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn).
He's was maybe the equivalent of Neil Magny, a tough gatekeeper to the top 10. If you put Neil Magny in front of Usman, i believe there's a 1 out of 100 chance he KO's him, like Serra with GSP.

Ahh okay. Its just the way I see people talking about GSP losing to Serra being the biggest upset in history made it seem like he was a can or something

 

[HaulParris]

A lot of fighter bashing here and not a lot of respect.

 

[Dog Gynecologist]

Ahh okay. Its just the way I see people talking about GSP losing to Serra being the biggest upset in history made it seem like he was a can or something

It have to do with the fact that it was strange in the first place to give him a title shot.
He was really undersized, specialized in BJJ, and also he gain is title shot by winning some weird season of TUF with only veteran journeyman/gatekeeper.
GSP was the new champion who just beat Matt Hugues and BJ Penn back to back.
For a modern analogy, i would say picture Khamzat, beating Usman and Islam (at WW), losing to a short notice Neil Magny.

 

[mahavishnunj]

Greatest Of All Time

GREATEST OF ALL TIME

Think about that

An all time GOAT would NEVER LOSE

A GOAT of any division should theoretically NEVER have lost to cans. The argument that ´´oh they were green and improved a lot, is null because the GOAT candidates like GSP, Adessanya, Fedor, Khabib either never lost or never lost to cans. When you start MMA you are a can fighting other cans unless you are thrown into the wolves like Brock Lesnar was. So the idea that you the supposed GREATEST OF ALL TIME would lose is just poor when we have greats who never lost to a can.

A GOAT of any division should also theoretically NEVER lose to those from weight classes below them, but can lose to those from weight classes above them. Losing to someone larger only hurts your Pound For Pound (P4P) GOAT argument but it will not hurt your division GOAT status.

A GOAT of any division should also IF HE does lose, should AVENGE those losses (as GSP did)

If a division is so tough that nobody has ever NOT lost to a can, and has been defeated by smaller opponents and or NOT avenged their losses then you have to look at who did they lose to and how far back was it. In their current prime would such a loss theoretically happen? I.e., would Stipe in his peak prime have lost to Struve? It is unlikely he would lose to Struve but he never got to avenge that loss like he did the loss to JDS or the fluke loss to Cormier which he avenged 2x.

If you think about it logically, there cannot be a GOAT.

 

[Diamondsareforever47]

Also (again I know it's boxing) but Pacquiao lost to a dude that was 11-4-5 at the time and is now 15-8-6. Meanwhile Pacquiao went on to set the record for most belts won in different weight classes, oldest boxer in the lighter weight classes to win a belt etc..

I do not follow boxing. If he never avenged his several losses then he would have to be below those who beat him but in terms of resume it is possible he lost to some guys at the end of his career who had inferior resumes to him. I do know he lost to Mayweather who has never lost I would just assume Mayweather has to be the GOAT in every division he fights in because he literally has never lost and has beaten the whose who. He even beat Canelo

 

[Dog Gynecologist]

By your standard, Fedor would have a better GOAT case if he retired just when Pride ended, Ali would be better if he never returned from his suspension, Tyson if he just stayed in prison...
Taking risk and finding your limit is part of greatness

 

[Ozze]

Not it's not TS. The whole discussion about GOAT is all about everyone using different metrics to say why their candidate is the GOAT.

Some say it's better being a two division champ (with none or vrey few defenses), some say it's much better to have a shit ton of defenses, even if only in the same weight class.

You talk about not losing to cans. Imagine a guy who had 6 dominant title defenses, beat at least 10 ranked opponents, had most of his fights in a top promotion and had final record of 34-2 (the two loses being to cans when he was coming up and never avenged) versus a guy who spent the majority of his career in a smaller org, came to the main org, had like three fights (two ranked opponents), got the title in a controversial decision but never defended retiring soon after with a 19-0 record.

Who was better?

 

[BBMN]

I don't know too much about Matt Serra but wasn't he a can?

Serra has won championships in Mundial, ADCC, and the UFC. At the time he fought GSP (and beat him), he had arguably the most dangerous BJJ game in the division. He was the first American to become a Blackbelt under Renzo Gracie.

I dunno about you, but that sounds like a can to me!

 

[DoubleTrouble]

For me not losing is like a bonus. If 2 fighters are even in accolades and the 1 is undefeated then I'd give that fighter the slight edge. However even if 1 guy has like 20 losses but went on a record setting win streak, defended their belt a 10 or 11 times etc.. I'd certainly put that guy ahead of somebody with a smaller streak and only 2 or 3 defenses. For this same reason I rank Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather.

Also if we are only counting Divisional losses, Volk is undefeated at 145 and arguably beat Makhachev so he deserves a mention by your criteria. So many greats in both boxing and MMA suffered losses in their early and late careers tho. Khabib and GSP didn't stick around like Silva did.

This is a dumb take re: Pac/May -Mayweather defeated the most champions of any fighter ever AND beat Pacman with ease.

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

This is a dumb take re: Pac/May -Mayweather defeated the most champions of any fighter ever AND beat Pacman with ease.

Pacquiao was robbed imo and Mayweather has a few questionable decision wins. Pacquiao won major belts in 8 weight classes, Mayweather did it in 5. Pacquiao never tried to dictate special rules, pick the ref etc.. like Mayweather did later into his career. As far as beating the Most champions goes I'm finding different results on that. I see some claiming Mayweather beat 1 more champ than Pacquiao and others saying they are tied. Also starting off a reply with calling the other person dumb is a very low iq thing to do. I'm not going to call you dumb for thinking Mayweather is ahead of Pacquiao. I think both have a strong argument.

 

[World eater]

Calling people goats is silly.
Calling people cans is both silly and disrespectful.

 

[DoubleTrouble]

Pacquiao was robbed imo and Mayweather has a few questionable decision wins. Pacquiao won major belts in 8 weight classes, Mayweather did it in 5. Pacquiao never tried to dictate special rules, pick the ref etc.. like Mayweather did later into his career. As far as beating the Most champions goes I'm finding different results on that. I see some claiming Mayweather beat 1 more champ than Pacquiao and others saying they are tied. Also starting off a reply with calling the other person dumb is a very low iq thing to do. I'm not going to call you dumb for thinking Mayweather is ahead of Pacquiao. I think both have a strong argument.

Robbed by who?

There is zero reason to rate Pacman ahead of Mayweather especially as Mayweather owned his soul and Pacman was likely on PED's his whole career.

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

Robbed by who?

There is zero reason to rate Pacman ahead of Mayweather especially as Mayweather owned his soul and Pacman was likely on PED's his whole career.

Mayweather is the one who used an Illegal iv for the Pacquiao fight..

 

[DoubleTrouble]

Mayweather is the one who used an Illegal iv for the Pacquiao fight..

Is this supposed to be evidence? lmfao