I'm sorry, Jones is nowhere near the GOAT level

[RoñaCastroJr]

You can be a great fighter and still be overrated. Coming from the boxing side I’d say mma fans tend to overly glamorize the athletes and there’s very much a group think in mma that happens less in boxing. Jon Jones claim to GOAT status is far more shaky than mma fans like to admit. Personally I think his resume is overrated, particularly the strength of his opponents, and then of course there’s the PED issue.

 

[RoñaCastroJr]

Just say you hate Jon. It's easier.

hater or not he's right though..

 

[RoñaCastroJr]

People get a little weird on Jones because he was so extraordinary at such a young age, and has barely added value to his career at ages (say 30-35) where some fighters are in their prime or close and adding the most value. He's a good example of that adage that it's "fight years" that matter beyond chronological age.

But you can't discredit the relative lack of value these last handful of years without crediting him with doing amazing work at an age when most fighters are basically ramping up their career.

For a point of comparison:

At age 28, Fedor was in the middle of his 2nd (aborted) and 3rd fights with Big Nog
At age 28, Anderson was getting triangled by Takase in Pride
At age 28, GSP has finished his 2nd defense of his 2nd title reign, beating BJ Penn

At age 28, Jones beat DC in DC 1, and finished his 8th straight title defense in the UFC.

The only fighter close to Jones in terms of chronological age to MMA accomplishments (that I can think of) is Aldo, and even Aldo had a three year head start in his career (starting at 18 vs. 21).

This is leaving PED issues to the side. I can understand someone who holds the position of DQing him on the basis of PEDs/cheating.

still a cheat

 

[ermac88]

You can’t “take away” the DC wins and pretend they didn’t happen. How many guys in history could roid up and beat DC?

Barnett, Bigfoot, Henderson, Mir were on gear and couldn't

 

[RageQuitLord]

He’s obviously very good, but where would he be without peds, and fouls in the fights?? Nowhere near where he is now.. That’s my official position. Not even close to being a GOAT.

That gif is dumb you dork.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Wins over DC x2, Gus x2, Vitor, Shogun, Machida, Rampage, Rashad, Bader, Glover, Chael.

Entered the UFC less than 6 months after having his first pro fight.

From winning the belt in March 2011 to beating Smith in March 2019 he was to all intents and purposes (though not always officially because of his various fuck ups) the champ, the only fight that was even contentious in that 8 year period was the Gus fight, which he avenged.


...Yeah, sounds like a GOAT contender to me.

 

[fzoid4454]

What was his excuse for the t-bol? I forget. In any case, no, he was never cleared by USADA for anything. He twice 'won' an arbitration that he paid for. Once, he convinced them that he hadn't knowingly ingested anything bad, and the second time he convinced them that he could help them catch other cheats, so they knocked 3 years off of his 4 year sentence.(USADA did). There were not 'a ton' of 'suspected' pulsing cases, there were a couple that they pointed to and they were most likely the result of the athlete roiding to the gills previously. The biggest argument against the pulsing idea, in my mind, is when WADA went back and re-tested samples for athletes from the 2008 Olympics with the new technology. They found dozens and dozens of turinabol cheats. Why then, have these athletes not gone on to pulse indefinitely? Why are they not part of this pulsing theory that was concocted solely for Jon Jones and the UFC?

His excuse was some a tainted nutritional supplement.

My working theory is that some of those manufacturers don't even try to avoid contamination, and that cheats will purchase their product BECAUSE they are tainted, so they have a handy excuse to be examined by USADA.

 

[fzoid4454]

Except, Jones wasn't tested at all from Oct 2017 to Jul 2018, and when they started testing him again he popped, so clearly you know very little about the case.

Which is irrelevant to talking about whether the M3 metabolite only has a max of 40 to 50 days, because he WAS constantly tested leading up to the Gus fight. Jones popped, in identical fashion, for the M3 more than once. One only needs stringent testing for any one of those to look at the timelines and whether your claims make sense.

Short term and medium term metabolites are detectable up to 22 days, and Jones was tested less than that before the Corimer fight, so how does the M3 show not show up on July 7, M1 and M2 don't show up then, and then, less than three weeks later, M3 shows up in trace amounts, but no M1 or M2?

Short terms are easily worked around, by themselves, but as part of a comprehensive look it has relevance here.

Again, you only highlight how little you know about the case because USADA said in their official report that Jones was going to get 4 years for his in-competition use but snitched in order to get a reduced sentence.

Actually, quite the opposite. They never pinpointed when he took T-bol before the Corimer fight, and didn't try, since it's a banned substance - aka any use, at any time, means you get popped.

It was reduced for the very vague "substantial assistance." As I said, the Sherdog speculative gossip was that he snitched on someone, but it's just that. While the information has to lead to a case against another individual, there are a ton of ways for investigators to get there without me saying "Fighter X is juiced."

How many athletes were popped in the Balco scandal just a syringe with "the clear" being anonymously sent? Information on how PED is obtained, or in that case, that it exists, makes it much easier for investigators to track down who else is using, all without a specific person getting "snitched" on.

So, again, that is purely speculative gossip. I realize you initiated a whole thread based on some facts, but a lot of innuendo, assumptions and speculation, but pointing out that you're doing that isn't actually a claim that Jones is clean an innocent.

But, certainly, you pretending it is helps to change the subject and perspective on how much you overstate the level of specificity on what is known.

And again, that ratio doesn't mean what you think it means, because it's not an indicator of how much steroids someone is using.

There's a vast difference between "can't always" and "never."

And the whole reason why, with a normal 1:1 ratio the threshold gets set at 6:1 for failure is exactly because, once you get to 6:1, that ratio tells us that there's no chance for variation or weird external factor.

So, really, the whole reason why there is a ratio level that in the threshold for failure is because, unlike possibilities at lower levels, at high ratios it tells us EXACTLY what I'm saying it does.

I never said he was, I said that someone with the levels of a castrated man (like Jones) could still be roided to the gills, which is not a proclamation on Jones specifically.

Yeah, sorry about that. My original response attributed that to OP, and then, for some reason, when I looked at it again, I thought I was responding to OP, so I went and edited that and changed it to "you."

Stop projecting, because as I noted above you clearly don't know the specific details of this case. What's ridiculous is that you're debating this topic with far too much confidence despite not knowing the most minute details that have already been compiled here on Sherdog.

Actually, I haven't stated anything incorrect, so it seems like I have the specifics of the case down pretty well.

 

[SouthpawSouthernFist]

You can’t “take away” the DC wins and pretend they didn’t happen. How many guys in history could roid up and beat DC?

Um... Stipe beat DC without roids. But at that point no one could have beaten DC without roids. That's kinda the point. Jones was juiced to the f'in gills.

Which is irrelevant to talking about whether the M3 metabolite only has a max of 40 to 50 days, because he WAS constantly tested leading up to the Gus fight. Jones popped, in identical fashion, for the M3 more than once. One only needs stringent testing for any one of those to look at the timelines and whether your claims make sense.

Short term and medium term metabolites are detectable up to 22 days, and Jones was tested less than that before the Corimer fight, so how does the M3 show not show up on July 7, M1 and M2 don't show up then, and then, less than three weeks later, M3 shows up in trace amounts, but no M1 or M2?

Short terms are easily worked around, by themselves, but as part of a comprehensive look it has relevance here.



Actually, quite the opposite. They never pinpointed when he took T-bol before the Corimer fight, and didn't try, since it's a banned substance - aka any use, at any time, means you get popped.

It was reduced for the very vague "substantial assistance." As I said, the Sherdog speculative gossip was that he snitched on someone, but it's just that. While the information has to lead to a case against another individual, there are a ton of ways for investigators to get there without me saying "Fighter X is juiced."

How many athletes were popped in the Balco scandal just a syringe with "the clear" being anonymously sent? Information on how PED is obtained, or in that case, that it exists, makes it much easier for investigators to track down who else is using, all without a specific person getting "snitched" on.

So, again, that is purely speculative gossip. I realize you initiated a whole thread based on some facts, but a lot of innuendo, assumptions and speculation, but pointing out that you're doing that isn't actually a claim that Jones is clean an innocent.

But, certainly, you pretending it is helps to change the subject and perspective on how much you overstate the level of specificity on what is known.


There's a vast difference between "can't always" and "never."

And the whole reason why, with a normal 1:1 ratio the threshold gets set at 6:1 for failure is exactly because, once you get to 6:1, that ratio tells us that there's no chance for variation or weird external factor.

So, really, the whole reason why there is a ratio level that in the threshold for failure is because, unlike possibilities at lower levels, at high ratios it tells us EXACTLY what I'm saying it does.



Yeah, sorry about that. My original response attributed that to OP, and then, for some reason, when I looked at it again, I thought I was responding to OP, so I went and edited that and changed it to "you."



Actually, I haven't stated anything incorrect, so it seems like I have the specifics of the case down pretty well.

You constantly miss the mark that taking multiple drugs can muddle the picture when looking at blood markers.

So, we can't tell the quantities of PEDs Jones took just by looking at blood tests.

We can infer that he was snorting and shooting oodles of that shit by looking at the tremendous dropoff in athletic performance he experienced once he was caught by USADA.

It's common sense. Jones goes from an incredible hulk with good striking, to a crusty but wiley vet, edging close decisions over guys he would have crushed years back.