Is it just me or Judo is way harder to learn than wrestling?

[Baby Hanma]

I remember my Judo coach saying it, but I did wonder if maybe he was only glorifying himself by saying his art is more complex and harder to learn than others, or something like that. But on the occasional days that we get taught wrestling moves and takedowns, I find that those are noticeably easier to learn than throws. He doesn't do much coaching with me and I end up executing the moves perfectly (in a sense) even after spending only thirty seconds teaching it to me. And when he re-evaluates it, he sees nothing wrong with what I do.

On the other hand, it took me months to finally get the hang of proper hip position when doing a Judo throw.

So is it harder to learn?

Three coaches teach us Judo, but the truth is, it's really just stand-up grappling in general with a strong emphasis on Judo. For some reason, actual wrestling is only for the advanced students. It's a hardcore MMA gym.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

I'm only 18 months or so into Judo and train 2 or sometimes 3 days per week and yes, it is hard to get used to in my experience. Perhaps being 250lb, 39 and a former competitive lifter is limiting me somewhat compared to younger, more agile players.

Sometimes when drilling, I would overthink the throws and make it hard on myself. I seem to overthink each detail and can be quite stiff sometimes. However, I have found during randori I have executed the throws much better, I guess because I am not as stiff and I don't have the time to think or I will be the one that gets put on my ass.

I mess around with some BJJ and find the basics much easier, but what I have been told, once you get more advanced the progress slows, whereas Judo it is slower at the beginning, but once it clicks? You speed up the progress

 

[Baby Hanma]

I'm only 18 months or so into Judo and

This is good to hear. I feel like an extremely slow-learning trainee in the art after I've been training for about six months. I thought I should already be a badass at this point, and I'm glad to hear there's someone who's been training for 1.5 years (you) and still use the word "only". It makes me feel better.

I mess around with some BJJ and find the basics much easier, but what I have been told, once you get more advanced the progress slows, whereas Judo it is slower at the beginning, but once it clicks? You speed up the progress

This is so good to hear and I really hope it's true. Because right now, I move like I have two left feet in every session. It feels like I've made no progress. For every good day where things go great, I encounter the next five sessions where I get reminded I'm their most unskilled student in their teaching history.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

This is good to hear. I feel like an extremely slow-learning trainee in the art after I've been training for about six months. I thought I should already be a badass at this point, and I'm glad to hear there's someone who's been training for 1.5 years (you) and still use the word "only". It makes me feel better.



This is so good to hear and I really hope it's true. Because right now, I move like I have two left feet in every session. It feels like I've made no progress. For every good day where things go great, I encounter the next five sessions where I get reminded I'm their most unskilled student in their teaching history.

Dude if you went against another beginner after 6 months, especially after a year you would see progress. You may not be perfecting the throws etc, but you will find it much easier to break their balance compared to trying to break other more experienced guys

My coach/sensei tells me to never be too negative

don't be afraid to come forward and commit, to inevitably get thrown. It is how you will learn

Basically don't be too defensive/negative as it will be penalized during comps

Try and win the grip fight, break balance and eventually the throws will come

 

[Baby Hanma]

Dude if you went against another beginner after 6 months, especially after a year you would see progress. You may not be perfecting the throws etc, but you will find it much easier to break their balance compared to trying to break other more experienced guys

My coach/sensei tells me to never be too negative

don't be afraid to come forward and commit, to inevitably get thrown. It is how you will learn

Basically don't be too defensive/negative as it will be penalized during comps

Try and win the grip fight, break balance and eventually the throws will come

You used to be a competitive lifter, right? I'm a powerlifter myself. Never competed yet, but it's my main sport. I train Judo so I can fight, not to be elite at it.

I can definitely, definitely feel the difference in the grip fight against smaller guys versus against bigger, stronger guys. Wrestling against the stronger guys is like trying to wrestle an oak tree. The smaller guys move wherever your wrist goes. There's definitely zero difference with whether or not they can throw you, but that pure grip fighting and controlling each other's bodies to where you wanna put them makes the bigger, stronger guys shine.

lol. I remember an outdoor session where I (thankfully) successfully secured a double-underhook on this jacked dude in a sumo-style randori. It was a no-gi session. The dude was forced to use his skills and tricks to win. lol. One of my instructors, a lady I was crushing on, commented on how strong I was. I was happy not because she thought I was strong. I was happy because she's hot and she recognized my existence for the first time.

God, that ass.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

You used to be a competitive lifter, right? I'm a powerlifter myself. Never competed yet, but it's my main sport. I train Judo so I can fight, not to be elite at it.

I can definitely, definitely feel the difference in the grip fight against smaller guys versus against bigger, stronger guys. Wrestling against the stronger guys is like trying to wrestle an oak tree. The smaller guys move wherever your wrist goes. There's definitely zero difference with whether or not they can throw you, but that pure grip fighting and controlling each other's bodies to where you wanna put them makes the bigger, stronger guys shine.

lol. I remember an outdoor session where I (thankfully) successfully secured a double-underhook on this jacked dude in a sumo-style randori. It was a no-gi session. The dude was forced to use his skills and tricks to win. lol. One of my instructors, a lady I was crushing on, commented on how strong I was. I was happy not because she thought I was strong. I was happy because she's hot and she recognized my existence for the first time.

God, that ass.

Yeah I was a few years back. My grip is very strong, but remember strength is only useful if you have balance and you can break others balance.

good balance a strong core is much more important than what you can bench. I can make my strength work against lighter, intermediate guys, but much more experienced guys are still way too good.

Think of strength like the icing on the cake. You need to get close to someone's skill level and then the extra strength will make a difference

 

[Patrick Jane]

Yes it is, and the fact that it's harder to learn than wrestling is really nothing to brag about because the general rule in martial arts is the simpler the better.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I remember my Judo coach saying it, but I did wonder if maybe he was only glorifying himself by saying his art is more complex and harder to learn than others, or something like that. But on the occasional days that we get taught wrestling moves and takedowns, I find that those are noticeably easier to learn than throws. He doesn't do much coaching with me and I end up executing the moves perfectly (in a sense) even after spending only thirty seconds teaching it to me. And when he re-evaluates it, he sees nothing wrong with what I do.

On the other hand, it took me months to finally get the hang of proper hip position when doing a Judo throw.

So is it harder to learn?

Three coaches teach us Judo, but the truth is, it's really just stand-up grappling in general with a strong emphasis on Judo. For some reason, actual wrestling is only for the advanced students. It's a hardcore MMA gym.

I know a bunch of people will say no no no but IMO wrestling is more physical and less technical than judo. That's why it's so effective and why wrestlers are so hard to deal with.

Wrestling involves more forward attacks than judo and less turning/off balancing.

 

[duke_droese]

What parts of judo would be best to add to a wrestling based game? I.e. what does judo have that wrestling doesn't?

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

The wrestling ruleset prioritizes attacks that have a lower floor than judo does. I'm not trying to say that a single or double leg takedown takes no skill - it very much does, especially as the quality of your opposition gets better - but it's a lot easier for someone who's just been shown a single or double leg to brute force it and have some success. You can see practical examples of this in just about every BJJ class - they'll hit takedowns even though they're mediocre at them. It's a lot harder to properly hit a foot sweep or a turning throw with less experience. Leg grab attacks are effective - that's part of why they were removed from the IJF ruleset, in fact (although statistically at a high level they weren't more effective than any other technique for scoring ippons, but they did allow a player to stall very effectively).

I'm a judo guy and I love it, but if you're looking to complement your MMA or BJJ game, it's probably better to invest in some wrestling techniques first because techniques you can actually use are important. I think judo is useful to anyone who grapples - the issues of balance and timing, kuzushi and can all be utilised in any style of grappling - but the learning curve of judo is a lot steeper.

Incidentally, hitting a perfect footsweep or turning throw to me feels far more satisfying than hitting a perfect double leg takedown because when you do it right it legitimately feels effortless. Like magic, or like you've hacked the Matrix. But damn does it take a long time to be able to do that even remotely consistently.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

My theory is it's particularly difficult to learn judo as an adult.

We've spent many years trying not to fall over, trying to keep good balance with both feet on the ground, fighting against it of we do lose balance and posting our arms when we go down.

To learn judo, it's imperative you let go of these instincts to some extent.

Our bodies have to get used to losing balance, throwing while moving forward and backward, throwing while falling over yourself, throwing with only one foot on the ground and, perhaps most importantly, being safe to you and tori when you get thrown.

 

[Kforcer]

I think its more so that people enter judo as adult hobbyists, whereas with wrestling, you have that total immersion of 5-day a week grueling training. At the very least, that has to be some sort of factor.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

What parts of judo would be best to add to a wrestling based game? I.e. what does judo have that wrestling doesn't?

IMO that's a very tricky question, one with which I am struggling since I do both judo and more recently wrestling (at a shitty level).

In my personal experience using judo in freestylw wrestling is a huge challenge because of wrestler s stance, which is much lower and with hips behind. This makes foot sweeps very difficult to pull off. The area where I am having some success as a judoka is hip throws. For some reason the opportunity arises much more than foot sweeps for me.

 

[yetanother]

What parts of judo would be best to add to a wrestling based game? I.e. what does judo have that wrestling doesn't?

When they grip your gi it really makes wrestling moves harder to do and you need your judo throws.
For no-gi all the judo stuff that makes sense is part of wrestling already.
Like they do uchimatas in wrestling vsllijg it the whizzer kick.
Nogi judo sort of works against people that can't wrestle but is kind of shit from seeing judo black belts wrestle.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I coach both, and this is what I answer, when my students ask me this very question (at least once a month):

Wrestling is natural to the body.
Its a clash of force vs force, then add techniques and physical abilities.
If you watch the animals grappling, you will see a lot of wrestling.

Judo.
There is nothing natural to Judo.
No animal in this world goes against bigger and stronger one, then proceeds to fit in opponent's attack and use his force against him/her.
Judo is/was primarily played in open weight categories.

To learn properly a Judo move, is estimated that the move needs to be repeated 10,000 times. Specifically because doing pivots on top of your toes, while bending knees sideways and wheeling with arms, is not something we naturally do.

 

[THEfightsAREfixed]

Judo sucks and doesn’t work as well, overly relies on gi grips. Once you learn the artificially complicated moves with names you will never remember you need a bad opponent making mistakes to use them. Put a wrestler in a gi and he can defend an experienced Judo players attacks without much problem and the Judo play will get taken down again and again with leg attacks.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

Judo sucks and doesn’t work as well, overly relies on gi grips. Once you learn the artificially complicated moves with names you will never remember you need a bad opponent making mistakes to use them. Put a wrestler in a gi and he can defend an experienced Judo players attacks without much problem and the Judo play will get taken down again and again with leg attacks.

Except that didn't pan out at a high level - leg based attacks were banned from judo, yes, but not because they were too effective when wrestlers moved over into judo, except as a stalling tactic.
Admittedly these days most IJF stars learn bugger all leg grab defenses, but it wasn't a matter of wrestlers joining judo and dominating.
And there are a few examples of wrestlers with judo experience who use it well, although my point from earlier in the thread about how wrestling emphasises techniques with a lower skill floor remains true.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Judo sucks and doesn’t work as well, overly relies on gi grips. Once you learn the artificially complicated moves with names you will never remember you need a bad opponent making mistakes to use them. Put a wrestler in a gi and he can defend an experienced Judo players attacks without much problem and the Judo play will get taken down again and again with leg attacks.

No, a good judoka will completely control an equally good wrestler using the gi. Yes the wrestler will be more effective in judo than the judoka in wrestling but you are exxagerating.

I do believe that overall wrestling > judo. And I say that as a judoka.

 

[seatea]

Except that didn't pan out at a high level - leg based attacks were banned from judo, yes, but not because they were too effective when wrestlers moved over into judo, except as a stalling tactic.
Admittedly these days most IJF stars learn bugger all leg grab defenses, but it wasn't a matter of wrestlers joining judo and dominating.
And there are a few examples of wrestlers with judo experience who use it well, although my point from earlier in the thread about how wrestling emphasises techniques with a lower skill floor remains true.

No, a good judoka will completely control an equally good wrestler using the gi. Yes the wrestler will be more effective in judo than the judoka in wrestling but you are exxagerating.

I do believe that overall wrestling > judo. And I say that as a judoka.

Please, guys, don't take such low-effort bait. If he wants to start shit make him work for it.

 

[Normot]

It's harder to learn to throw a man to their back than to get them down to the ground. The goals are actually different.