Is shooting (double leg) in general, bad for the knees?

[Baby Hanma]

It’s definitely way beyond my comfort zone. I’ve done it on people before in training, but I just can’t seem to do it properly on empty space. I keep falling forward. Something tells me a reason for that is I’m just not trusting the weird knee angle involved on the lead leg.

But if it’s safe, I’ll drill the hell out of it.

So is it bad for the knees?

Keep in mind, please, that I’m a whopping 250 pounds. I train as a powerlifter.

 

[RemyR]

I don't think it's necessarily bad on the knees if you do it right. I think the stigma that shooting it's bad on your knees comes from guys that slam down to change levels then bash their front knee to the ground as they shoot. I'm 40 with a shady left knee and I still shoot in very regularly. The reason I don't think you see too many guys your size doing it is is because changing levels requires a bit of agility and in general the bigger you are the harder it is to shift your weight around, giving your opponent more time to react. Plus having it's different having a 250 lb guy sprawled on top of you vs a 185er even at the same weight classes.

I think the common mistakes people make is they either kind of drop to a split squat position initially and almost drive forward off their front leg or they dive in diagonally off their back leg (this can actually work but requires hand fighting to set it up)

When you drop down to change levels your front and back legs should be a bit closer together than you probably think but your stance should still a bit of forward pressure so you don't just fall over if pushed. The drive forward comes from the back leg. Having your legs a bit closer together vs a split squat gives you a more powerful drive due to the range of motion. Your front leg is stepping forward for the penetration step to drive your weight into them (think kazushi in judo since you're a judoka). Your rear leg will trail after the front leg plants to cut an angle so you don't get sprawled on fully. Your front knee only really hits the ground if their body moves away from you so you can reshoot and continue to drive for an angle(chances are they won't just stand there so this happens a lot). The whole maneuver should feel very explosive. Once you get the basic shot down practice chaining them together across a mat (kind of like duck walking)

This is just the mechanics lower body mechanics of a basic shot. What to do with your upper body is a whole another several paragraph post.

And a similar to striking this isn't set in stone as there are times to break the rules but think of this as a general outline. It's gonna take a lot of drilling to get used to it TBH, and even more during sparring to get the timing and feel down. Wrestling is notoriously hard to learn. It's not uncommon for newcomers to not win a match until they're a year or two into it.

 

[RemyR]

One more thing one more thing to help your rear knee, take note how Cary is driving off the side of his back foot. Not only does it give more power but it makes it so your rear knee doesn't slam on the ground and also leaves you in a good spot to cut an angle as you drive forward


and yes I know Cary is driving his front knee to the ground there. He is anticipating cutting an angle on those shots.

 

[yetanother]

It’s definitely way beyond my comfort zone. I’ve done it on people before in training, but I just can’t seem to do it properly on empty space. I keep falling forward. Something tells me a reason for that is I’m just not trusting the weird knee angle involved on the lead leg.

But if it’s safe, I’ll drill the hell out of it.

So is it bad for the knees?

Keep in mind, please, that I’m a whopping 250 pounds. I train as a powerlifter.

Doing it wrong puts bad pressures way more pressures on the knees.
A ton of BJJ coaches who can't wrestle for shit teach it without changing levels first so you do some slow movement that buts a ton of bad forces on your knee.

 

[Einheri]

I personally don't shoot for doubles except from Butterfly Guard. Mostly because I get sore knees if my technique isn't perfect. I also find in gi BJJ that it's not really worth it; you mess it up and you're in a bad position, either you get sprawled on or you gift them a belt grip and your posture. I'll stick to my uchimata, ouchi gari, and sumi gaeshi - they fit much better into my game anyway.

 

[RemyR]

I personally don't shoot for doubles except from Butterfly Guard. Mostly because I get sore knees if my technique isn't perfect. I also find in gi BJJ that it's not really worth it; you mess it up and you're in a bad position, either you get sprawled on or you gift them a belt grip and your posture. I'll stick to my uchimata, ouchi gari, and sumi gaeshi - they fit much better into my game anyway.

Wrestling in the gi is fucking tough, I don't blame ya. I tell dudes all the time a simple collar or cross collar grip will jack up like 90% of my standing game I would normally use no-gi.

 

[Smato_rules]

In no gi I prefer takedowns from the underhook. In the gi I used to be able to always get the underhook, but am struggling to do so as I progress with the higher belts.

 

[Daz2300]

There are a few simple tricks that can usually help deal with that collar grip framing your shoulder and keeping you from their legs in the gi but annoyingly they never seem to get taught in BJJ. Anything that lets you deal with stiff-arming to prevent entries for turning throws in Judo is equally applicable and would save people a lot of time struggling to apply the takedowns they learnt in the gi against resisting opponents.

Shoulder rolling, changing the angle of your shoulder they're pushing against, ducking under the grip to move your head to the outside or dragging their collar down hard over their sleeve grip side shoulder as you advance are all easy ways to negate their grip to a degree to get close enough for doubles and singles. It's almost like other people trying to take each other down wearing jackets have spent a lot of years figuring this out already....

I don't think I've ever seen a single BJJ takedown video address this except some from the Chewjitsu guy. It's no surprise most BJJ guys can't do takedowns properly in the gi when they're not learning some fundamental things needed to make them work. It's like teaching me the basic closed guard armbar but never showing me any way to break someone's posture to get them in the position to do it.

 

[Smato_rules]

There are a few simple tricks that can usually help deal with that collar grip framing your shoulder and keeping you from their legs in the gi but annoyingly they never seem to get taught in BJJ. Anything that lets you deal with stiff-arming to prevent entries for turning throws in Judo is equally applicable and would save people a lot of time struggling to apply the takedowns they learnt in the gi against resisting opponents.

Shoulder rolling, changing the angle of your shoulder they're pushing against, ducking under the grip to move your head to the outside or dragging their collar down hard over their sleeve grip side shoulder as you advance are all easy ways to negate their grip to a degree to get close enough for doubles and singles. It's almost like other people trying to take each other down wearing jackets have spent a lot of years figuring this out already....

I don't think I've ever seen a single BJJ takedown video address this except some from the Chewjitsu guy. It's no surprise most BJJ guys can't do takedowns properly in the gi when they're not learning some fundamental things needed to make them work. It's like teaching me the basic closed guard armbar but never showing me any way to break someone's posture to get them in the position to do it.

That makes so much sense, thanks

 

[HHJ]

I never felt comfortable doing takedowns where my knee hits the floor. I prefer singles to doubles as well (No gi)

 

[Thrawn33]

It’s definitely way beyond my comfort zone. I’ve done it on people before in training, but I just can’t seem to do it properly on empty space. I keep falling forward. Something tells me a reason for that is I’m just not trusting the weird knee angle involved on the lead leg.

But if it’s safe, I’ll drill the hell out of it.

So is it bad for the knees?

Keep in mind, please, that I’m a whopping 250 pounds. I train as a powerlifter.

Let me fire up the old noodle:

In wrestling: at your weight and HS HW it was more a clinch game because, fuck having 200+lbs sprawl on you I don't care how much you weigh

Pre Leg ban judo: yep Clinch

Post leg ban: ditto

BJJ: LoL

My brother in JBG, unless you are a genetic freak like Brock Lesnar, there is no reason to be shooting doubles if you are a former powerlifter...

My amateur opinion as I will never be that big or strong.

 

[Baby Hanma]

Let me fire up the old noodle:

In wrestling: at your weight and HS HW it was more a clinch game because, fuck having 200+lbs sprawl on you I don't care how much you weigh

Pre Leg ban judo: yep Clinch

Post leg ban: ditto

BJJ: LoL

My brother in JBG, unless you are a genetic freak like Brock Lesnar, there is no reason to be shooting doubles if you are a former powerlifter...

My amateur opinion as I will never be that big or strong.

Yeah thanks. The clinch game definitely feels easier for me. Shooting requires a lot of speed.

 

[shunyata]

Let me fire up the old noodle:

In wrestling: at your weight and HS HW it was more a clinch game because, fuck having 200+lbs sprawl on you I don't care how much you weigh

Pre Leg ban judo: yep Clinch

Post leg ban: ditto

BJJ: LoL

My brother in JBG, unless you are a genetic freak like Brock Lesnar, there is no reason to be shooting doubles if you are a former powerlifter...

My amateur opinion as I will never be that big or strong.

I'd add to this that if one feels like one is falling forward, your level change sucks and your ass is way too high in the air. Really drop your butt down on that level change.

 

[AZ103]

I never felt comfortable doing takedowns where my knee hits the floor. I prefer singles to doubles as well (No gi)

Here is a way to shoot a double without hitting the knee. By a man who hit more double legs than anyone on this forum, Brandon slay.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I find better to teach HWs how to get to high crotch, or ankle pics, instead of shooting.

 

[Fluffernutter]

250 lbs:

Switch to snapdowns to a front headlock, then spawl.

High crotch, then switch to a double

Or, double underhooks, change your level, bodylock.