Is the hand trap undertilized in MMA?

[TheNightmanCometh]

That's called a "knockdown" in boxing, it's one of the first things I learned so I know it is commonly taught: parry downward jab and counter right. I agree with some of the posters saying this isn't the traditional JKD trapping but is "aggressive" parrying.

Trapping IMO is more than slapping things out of the way but actively preventing someone from moving the arm, but then I know next to nothing about kung fu. All I know I've learned from watching YT vidoes and reading Bruce Lee's book 20 years ago.

No, if you went around and asked a million people what a knockdown was in boxing the last thing they would think of is parrying a jab. Aggressive parrying? Uh, what? Parrying is parrying. What next, he was using "aggressive" evasion?

 

[MB5161]

Interesting.. Now this confuses me a bit. I was at a JKD/WC/FMA place. When they trained the Pak Sau, it was literally used as a slap parry. In fact most of the movements were used as deflections of some sort. Now I don't know why they were different, but I wonder if their penchant for competing had anything to do with it. As the instructors regularly compete and WIN in FMA competitions were deflection and hand parries and stops and such are common. They also spar modified Kickboxing rules.

Technically it "starts" as a slap parry but the goal is to "trap" or immobilize the arm by pinning it against the attacker's body. Some pak sau drills just do the slap parry part. In this case, its strictly a defensive move.

When you say FMA competitions are you talking stick fighting?

 

[Kframe]

Technically it "starts" as a slap parry but the goal is to "trap" or immobilize the arm by pinning it against the attacker's body. Some pak sau drills just do the slap parry part. In this case, its strictly a defensive move.

When you say FMA competitions are you talking stick fighting?

Yep. They compete and win. Give me some time and I will look up the competition. I know it isn't Dog Brothers, but still it is getting hit with sticks..

 

[Hotora86]

That's called a "knockdown" in boxing, it's one of the first things I learned so I know it is commonly taught: parry downward jab and counter right. I agree with some of the posters saying this isn't the traditional JKD trapping but is "aggressive" parrying.

Trapping IMO is more than slapping things out of the way but actively preventing someone from moving the arm, but then I know next to nothing about kung fu. All I know I've learned from watching YT vidoes and reading Bruce Lee's book 20 years ago.

I'd say it's just a parry. A parry is a parry, no matter where it comes from - Karate, boxing, MT, KM etc. it always works the same way.

 

[fluffball]

I'd say it's just a parry. A parry is a parry, no matter where it comes from - Karate, boxing, MT, KM etc. it always works the same way.

Yup I agree, thata was my point. My understanding of trapping is that it's more than just parries. A knockdown or slapdown as some call it in boxing is just a specific type of parry that's more aggressive than just avoiding the punch, it moves it out of the way for your counter and even pulls the opponent in. And now typing that out it reallyis starting to sound like trapping... ha.

 

[Hotora86]

Yup I agree, thata was my point. My understanding of trapping is that it's more than just parries. A knockdown or slapdown as some call it in boxing is just a specific type of parry that's more aggressive than just avoiding the punch, it moves it out of the way for your counter and even pulls the opponent in. And now typing that out it reallyis starting to sound like trapping... ha.

Note that Karate often goes further than just the parry, it's usually parry-grab-pull while simultaneously counter-striking. Hikite (pulling the opposite hand back to the hip) actually represents that grab/pull motion.

Here's Shotokan founder Funakoshi doing it:

 

[panamaican]

Yup I agree, thata was my point. My understanding of trapping is that it's more than just parries. A knockdown or slapdown as some call it in boxing is just a specific type of parry that's more aggressive than just avoiding the punch, it moves it out of the way for your counter and even pulls the opponent in. And now typing that out it reallyis starting to sound like trapping... ha.

Note that Karate often goes further than just the parry, it's usually parry-grab-pull while simultaneously counter-striking. Hikite (pulling the opposite hand back to the hip) actually represents that grab/pull motion.

Here's Shotokan founder Funakoshi doing it:

I really don't think that there is a difference between parrying and trapping, except how much control you can achieve. If a boxer could parry a jab and keep the arm pinned down while he kept hitting with the other arm, he would. The gloves might be a problem but the goal remains the same.

It's the same with the hikite. It's the ideal outcome but even if you can't get a grip on the wrist or the sleeve, you're still going to be pushing the arm out of the way of your counter, aka parrying. That description is apt - parry -> grab -> pull. The whole thing is trapping, even if you don't get further than the initial parry.

This is one area where the TMA's have both succeeded and failed their students. We spend so much time discussing techniques involving the full hikite that we don't inform students enough about what happens if you can only get the parry.

 

[Cptn1NSAN0]

Lawler has the best hand traps in MMA right now imo.

 

[barnowl]

I really don't think that there is a difference between parrying and trapping, except how much control you can achieve. If a boxer could parry a jab and keep the arm pinned down while he kept hitting with the other arm, he would. The gloves might be a problem but the goal remains the same.

It's the same with the hikite. It's the ideal outcome but even if you can't get a grip on the wrist or the sleeve, you're still going to be pushing the arm out of the way of your counter, aka parrying. That description is apt - parry -> grab -> pull. The whole thing is trapping, even if you don't get further than the initial parry.

This is one area where the TMA's have both succeeded and failed their students. We spend so much time discussing techniques involving the full hikite that we don't inform students enough about what happens if you can only get the parry.

This is very true. Though some of that is the students not wanting to learn what to do if the "cool stuff" fails. I never understand that mental block. Everyone takes the time to learn and understand what happens if a combo misses, all grapplers learn what to do if submissions gets stopped, but if trapping hands misses or gets stopped it is labeled as doesn't work and not wants to learn what to do after that.

 

[MB5161]

Parry->grab->pull is called lop sau in WC/JKD

And yes, JKD spends a lot of time practicing this with the understanding that your job is to keep striking and keep the forward pressure going while keeping the fight in trapping range-then unleashing knees, elbows and headbutts from the thai clinch position.

Hey, this was the late 80s and early 90s.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

And I dont see how is "hand trapping" is high risk. How can it be more high risk than the jab? The Jab to the face has to travel greater distance than a hand trap.

 

[TheNightmanCometh]

This is very true. Though some of that is the students not wanting to learn what to do if the "cool stuff" fails. I never understand that mental block. Everyone takes the time to learn and understand what happens if a combo misses, all grapplers learn what to do if submissions gets stopped, but if trapping hands misses or gets stopped it is labeled as doesn't work and not wants to learn what to do after that.

I feel trapping isn't useful because it takes away one of your weapons to take away one of his weapons. Whereas parrying still gives you the opportunity to strike with both hands. I guess this becomes less important in muay thai, mma, or kickboxing.

 

[Hotora86]

I really don't think that there is a difference between parrying and trapping, except how much control you can achieve. If a boxer could parry a jab and keep the arm pinned down while he kept hitting with the other arm, he would. The gloves might be a problem but the goal remains the same.

It's the same with the hikite. It's the ideal outcome but even if you can't get a grip on the wrist or the sleeve, you're still going to be pushing the arm out of the way of your counter, aka parrying. That description is apt - parry -> grab -> pull. The whole thing is trapping, even if you don't get further than the initial parry.

This is one area where the TMA's have both succeeded and failed their students. We spend so much time discussing techniques involving the full hikite that we don't inform students enough about what happens if you can only get the parry.

I agree. The counter needs to happen simultaneously anyway so if you parry/grab/pull then it will be super effective (you can pull the opponent onto the strike), if you parry/grab that's great since you have more control, if you only parry but your counter reaches the target that's still good enough.

I think the simple parry should be taught at the start, proceeding to parry/grab at a later stage, then learning advances combos after parry/grab/pull is mastered.

 

[freakyfarley]

I like how lyoto slips rashads cross. Is that common in karate?

Yes, it's used in shotokan tournaments

 

[wilddeuces]

Maybe I hear the word wrong, but when I think of trapping I think that there's more immobilization than deflecting. "Deflecting" makes me think that a parry is happening.

 

[panamaican]

I feel trapping isn't useful because it takes away one of your weapons to take away one of his weapons. Whereas parrying still gives you the opportunity to strike with both hands. I guess this becomes less important in muay thai, mma, or kickboxing.

I'm not sure I see it that way. Every grappling art requires you take away your striking weapons to set up grappling techniques. Trapping is really just an intermediary step between striking and full on grappling.

You see a variation of this in boxing clinch work where one guy tries to immobilize his opponent's arm while sneaking in some extra shots. If boxing had full on grappling, some of that would eventually lead to takedowns. Or in pure grappling arts where they fight for wrist and limb control to set up takedowns, if striking was allowed they'd surely slip in some strikes to gain control.

Which is what you see in MMA. Guys fighting for wrist control and still slipping in knees and elbows before going for the takedown. Trapping techniques are for that intermediary stage. I think they're romanticized but that's more a matter of TMA's idealistically only teaching what happens when you get the perfect trap rather than the ineffectiveness of the strategy itself. Every other art that teaches limb control does so with the understanding that it's not going to happen automatically so don't rely on it. Karate, aikido, etc. teach limb control as if nothing else will ever happen.

 

[TheNightmanCometh]

I'm not sure I see it that way. Every grappling art requires you take away your striking weapons to set up grappling techniques. Trapping is really just an intermediary step between striking and full on grappling.

You see a variation of this in boxing clinch work where one guy tries to immobilize his opponent's arm while sneaking in some extra shots. If boxing had full on grappling, some of that would eventually lead to takedowns. Or in pure grappling arts where they fight for wrist and limb control to set up takedowns, if striking was allowed they'd surely slip in some strikes to gain control.

Which is what you see in MMA. Guys fighting for wrist control and still slipping in knees and elbows before going for the takedown. Trapping techniques are for that intermediary stage. I think they're romanticized but that's more a matter of TMA's idealistically only teaching what happens when you get the perfect trap rather than the ineffectiveness of the strategy itself. Every other art that teaches limb control does so with the understanding that it's not going to happen automatically so don't rely on it. Karate, aikido, etc. teach limb control as if nothing else will ever happen.

Precisely, which is why when I thought about it I excluded the combat sports with more weapons. The reason I don't like it in boxing when compared with a parry is you only have two weapons. By trapping the other boxer's hand depending on the stances of the fighters you really don't open up many targets while putting yourself in range to be attacked. This might work out if you're the pressure fighter and you want to trade on the ropes, but limiting yourself to one weapon in boxing isn't effective in my opinion.

Which is why it matters less in the other combat sports because they can attack with more weapons. So as you said trapping and throwing elbows/knees, or using the hand trapping to maintain wrist control and transition to a takedown. The issue still though is the danger it presents in the combat sports with more weapons. Trapping my hand means you've opened up a target. Now of course trapping my hand means a target is open on me as well, but by trapping my hand it might encourage us both to start trading elbows/knees.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Precisely, which is why when I thought about it I excluded the combat sports with more weapons. The reason I don't like it in boxing when compared with a parry is you only have two weapons. By trapping the other boxer's hand depending on the stances of the fighters you really don't open up many targets while putting yourself in range to be attacked. This might work out if you're the pressure fighter and you want to trade on the ropes, but limiting yourself to one weapon in boxing isn't effective in my opinion.

Which is why it matters less in the other combat sports because they can attack with more weapons. So as you said trapping and throwing elbows/knees, or using the hand trapping to maintain wrist control and transition to a takedown. The issue still though is the danger it presents in the combat sports with more weapons. Trapping my hand means you've opened up a target. Now of course trapping my hand means a target is open on me as well, but by trapping my hand it might encourage us both to start trading elbows/knees.

If you trap the hands, then you can step in with less chance of getting jabbed