Islam vs Charles was a competitive fight. We've convinced ourselves it wasn't.

[Boevik]

Charlie was winning until he lost.
Thou he looked a weight class smaller than Isla.

 

[xhaydenx]

Charlie was winning until he lost.
Thou he looked a weight class smaller than Isla.

He was losing in every single area and in every possible way until he lost hahah.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

You see, it does not matter if I write short or long, you have already made your mind and and nothing what I say changes that. And all what I say is wrong… so it does not make sense arguing or even trying to explain things to you. In reality you don’t want to understand.
Perspective, opinion, delusion and so on. You said it your self.
Just like I said before dead road and a waiste of energy.

I have already posted a video to this thread, and I agree 100% with that. There is explanation enough and no need for long play for play posts. Even the half blind and biased ones would see.
Maybe you want to watch that?
I have also posted the official stats to this thread. Maybe you want to check them too, before saying that one fighter did not land anything and the other landed and controlled all the time?

I disagree with you about the clinch situations and I also disagree about who dictated the grappling exchanges. It was a very close fight.
And being able to defend submissions, sitting inside the opponents closed guard with no real own offense, does not mean one is in charge of the happenings?

I know some people even still claim that FKL won the grappling in the fight against Oliveira.
There is zero reason trying to explain what is actually happening in those exchanges to people like that. Just a waiste of time, dead road.

This isn't about me changing your mind or you changing my mind, it's about being able to make a relatively sound argument to back up your claim that this was a competitive fight.

Then, even if I disagreed with you I could still say I understand your points/reasoning/perspective - I do this quite frequently with people I have disagreements with; I get them to explain their point of view, I explain mine, we go back and forth over the intangible nuances, and in the end of if we both approached the engagement with true honest intellectual curiosity we might not take the others opinions but our own might gain further depth and understanding in the process.

You basically just refuse to engage in this process from the onset, and then only as a last minute tactical delusion do you start throwing out random arguments that aren't fully-flushed out and you assume should be taken at face value.

If you want to post your video explanation I'll gladly watch it.

As far as official stats go -



I have eyes, I don't need to be manipulated by completely made up stats that aren't accurate or don't properly reflect how a fight should be scored. They count any strike to the face as a significant strike (no matter if it lands on guard/shoulder sometimes, and no matter how hard it lands) and they also count soft hamer-fists from guard that do nothing the same as body shots lol.

Here are the FIGHT METRIC STATS vs. THE REAL STATS (the ones used by watching the fight with my eyes and doing the play-by-play above)

FIGHT METRIC

ROUND 1
Charles = 10 strikes landed, 6 significant
Islam = 51 strikes landed, 12 signficant

ROUND 2
Charles = 15 strikes landed, 13 signficant
Islam = 21 strikes landed, 18 significant

REAL FIGHT STATS - no bullshit counting the baby strikes either throws on the ground, here is the strikes landed in order so you can see what the rhythm of the fight was like:

RD1
Islam Straight
Islam Hook
Islam Hook
Islam Knee
Charles Knee
Islam Knee
Islam Elbow (GnP)
Islam Punch (GnP)
Charles Upkick
Charles Elbow from Bottom

ROUND 1
Charles = 3 Strikes landed (1 Clinch Knee/1 Upkick/1 Elbow from Bottom)
Islam = 7 Strikes Landed (3 Punches Standing [one that stunned him], 2 Clinch Knee, 2 GnP shots)

RD2
Islam Glancing Straight
Islam Hook
Charles Elbow
Charles Knee
Charles Knee
Charles Elbow
Islam Knee
Charles Knee
Islam Hook
Islam Straight
Islam Jab
Islam Straight
Islam Hook
Islam High-Kick (partially blocked)
Islam Hook (drops him)

ROUND 2
Charles = 5 Strikes landed (2 Clinch Elbows, 3 Clinch Knees)
Islam = 10 Strikes landed (7 Punches Standing [including the one that dropped him], 1 partially blocked high kick, 1 clinch knee)

Just looking at the raw stats the main takeaway is that Oliviera got his game almost entirely shut-down, outside of the nice start of the second round in the clinch when he did his best work and arguably out-fought Islam for a minute (though he used way more energy than he wanted to and ended up having to fight out of a position he didn't want to be in).

I can see having re-watched it and done the stats that the Oliviera wasn't dominated in the clinch but he didn't win there either - he landed like one more knee and a couple short elbows but nothing truly significant, and it led to him being thrown in the first round and wasting a bunch of energy to start the second round. Islam is stronger in the clinch and it's just a bad spot to be in against a superior wrestler that isn't shorter than you by much.

Early in a fight against a dangerous submission fighter sitting in their closed guard and just shutting down their offensive grappling is part of the game. You are making them work and getting them tired, as the fight goes on you get more slippery and they get more tired making the submissions way tougher to land. It's called using tactics to achieve a strategy; if you've got a dangerous submission fighter you don't just try to pound their head in once you get them down early when they are fresh and dangerous, you take your time and break their posture, position, energy, will, etc. If Islam tried to smash and pass he'd easily give up a scramble or a submission set-up and be in a bad spot or forced to allow Charles to stand on his terms. By being safe and patient it puts the onus on Oliviera to work out of the position, one in which if nothing happens he is losing so he has to accept that it's on him to escape.

Here's some food for thought - the actual recent "COMPETITIVE" fights that Oliviera was in were his title run fights of Chandler/Gaethje/Poirer. In those fights both guys almost got finished, both took damage, both had moments of controlling the fight.

FYI - FKL got his knees mangled and was constantly in nightmare submission attacks and could not hold down or control Charles for more than 30 seconds at most.

 

[Conan the K-9]

This isn't about me changing your mind or you changing my mind, it's about being able to make a relatively sound argument to back up your claim that this was a competitive fight.

Then, even if I disagreed with you I could still say I understand your points/reasoning/perspective - I do this quite frequently with people I have disagreements with; I get them to explain their point of view, I explain mine, we go back and forth over the intangible nuances, and in the end of if we both approached the engagement with true honest intellectual curiosity we might not take the others opinions but our own might gain further depth and understanding in the process.

You basically just refuse to engage in this process from the onset, and then only as a last minute tactical delusion do you start throwing out random arguments that aren't fully-flushed out and you assume should be taken at face value.

If you want to post your video explanation I'll gladly watch it.

As I said before, I don’t have the energy to write long essays on this topic ( nor on any other topic either). I already posted the video in this thread, and I agree like 98% with that, so if you watch it, you can pretty much have an understanding how I see how the fight played out and why I think it was competitive and not some squash fight.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

As I said before, I don’t have the energy to write long essays on this topic ( nor on any other topic either). I already posted the video in this thread, and I agree like 98% with that, so if you watch it, you can pretty much have an understanding how I see how the fight played out and why I think it was competitive and not some squash fight.

I watched the video.

First thing I note - the dude overlays the entire video with text that covers 1/2 the screen of:

I <3 Charles

He's obviously an Oliviera nut-hugger of the highest order; basically by doing this in the video he completely undermines his own credibility. Why feel the need to label this over the face of the entire video if you want to offer a fair critique? Seems like giving away the game before it's started.

He also keeps interspersing "Subscribe :3" every minute or two as well - he does this frequently while talking, so instead of showing us video from the fight and offering critique he just talks in hypothetical fight jargon without showing the fight taking place. So he's critiquing it while not watching it, which again undermines the entire point of a video analysis.

In the video he basically just explains that Islam's strategy is to never stay in the pocket with Oliviera, which is true. At no point in the video does he actually show or explain how anything Charles did was highly effective or damaging. He basically just fawns over his grappling technique that results in no subs and no sweeps, simply one chained attempt and then a set-up for a scramble. Cool....not exactly fight-winning stuff, but some cool grappling details. Then he accuses Islam of spamming the same combination, indicating it's not based on making a read/seeing an opening; which is funny because it's the same combination he landed to open the fight and end the fight.

Then we get into the full-blown delusional part of the video - the one where our fine narrator describes how Charles shows he's a superior submission grappler by getting no dominant positions and no legit submission attempts (and later getting submitted). All on the basis of Oliviera going for a triangle/armbar chain....I mean if only he'd gone for that "Barrato-plata' like the narrator claimed, maybe the fight would've ended differently....I mean after all, according to the narrator Charles is "winning this position"....



After watching this video I fully understand now - it's Charles nut-huggery of the highest order. It's the 1 minute of the fight Charles did decent in slowed down to 25% speed overlayed with text of "I <3 Charles" that intercuts to "Subscribe :3" every alternating minute while down-playing everything Islam did and over-playing everything Charles did.

We've now come full circle - if this film is the basis of your opinion it's literally a nut-hugger Zapruder-esque film trying to claim Charles was winning the grappling.

You want to see a competitive Islam fight see him vs. Arman lol.

 

[Conan the K-9]

I watched the video.

First thing I note - the dude overlays the entire video with text that covers 1/2 the screen of:

I <3 Charles

He's obviously an Oliviera nut-hugger of the highest order; basically by doing this in the video he completely undermines his own credibility. Why feel the need to label this over the face of the entire video if you want to offer a fair critique? Seems like giving away the game before it's started.

He also keeps interspersing "Subscribe :3" every minute or two as well - he does this frequently while talking, so instead of showing us video from the fight and offering critique he just talks in hypothetical fight jargon without showing the fight taking place. So he's critiquing it while not watching it, which again undermines the entire point of a video analysis.

In the video he basically just explains that Islam's strategy is to never stay in the pocket with Oliviera, which is true. At no point in the video does he actually show or explain how anything Charles did was highly effective or damaging. He basically just fawns over his grappling technique that results in no subs and no sweeps, simply one chained attempt and then a set-up for a scramble. Cool....not exactly fight-winning stuff, but some cool grappling details. Then he accuses Islam of spamming the same combination, indicating it's not based on making a read/seeing an opening; which is funny because it's the same combination he landed to open the fight and end the fight.

Then we get into the full-blown delusional part of the video - the one where our fine narrator describes how Charles shows he's a superior submission grappler by getting no dominant positions and no legit submission attempts (and later getting submitted). All on the basis of Oliviera going for a triangle/armbar chain....I mean if only he'd gone for that "Barrato-plata' like the narrator claimed, maybe the fight would've ended differently....I mean after all, according to the narrator Charles is "winning this position"....



After watching this video I fully understand now - it's Charles nut-huggery of the highest order. It's the 1 minute of the fight Charles did decent in slowed down to 25% speed overlayed with text of "I <3 Charles" that intercuts to "Subscribe :3" every alternating minute while down-playing everything Islam did and over-playing everything Charles did.

We've now come full circle - if this film is the basis of your opinion it's literally a nut-hugger Zapruder-esque film trying to claim Charles was winning the grappling.

You want to see a competitive Islam fight see him vs. Arman lol.

Have you any idea how you are sounding?
All the fairytales about wanting to understand, willing to hear and discuss, then just letting this out of your mouth?

Lol, he put these texts because he predicted that Beneil was going to beat Charles badly, and Charles would have nothing for Benny. Now he like had to eat his words and also to cut the fight, so the video will not be taken down from YT.

But ofcourse like I could suspect, you see it as biased, maybe because you are biased your self?

And Charles threatened with the barrato plata, but did not commit as it’s not his style to force and muscle out submissions, it’s all technique. But it might be hard to see and understand for people who don’t do jiujitsu.

But this is such a waste of time
I’ve got GI’s to wash and snowboards to wax. ->

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Have you any idea how you are sounding?
All the fairytales about wanting to understand, willing to hear and discuss, then just letting this out of your mouth?

Lol, he put these texts because he predicted that Beneil was going to beat Charles badly, and Charles would have nothing for Benny. Now he like had to eat his words and also to cut the fight, so the video will not be taken down from YT.

But ofcourse like I could suspect, you see it as biased, maybe because you are biased your self?

And Charles threatened with the barrato plata, but did not commit as it’s not his style to force and muscle out submissions, it’s all technique. But it might be hard to see and understand for people who don’t do jiujitsu.

But this is such a waste of time
I’ve got GI’s to wash and snowboards to wax. ->

We are all biased to a degree, just some of us don't make videos where we show 5% of a fight slowed down to 25% that is overlayed with text of "I LOVE FIGHTER X" and claim that as being a good perspective of a fight.

BTW - 15 years+ training over here homey, I'm a black belt.

Enjoy the snow and the mats.

 

[Conan the K-9]

BTW - 15 years+ training over here homey, I'm a black belt.

Enjoy the snow and the mats.

Next year 20 years of jiujitsu and last year 30 years of snowboarding. Hope will be enjoying both as long as possible.

 

[Kertol]

Dude, that was not a competitive fight.

 

[old school 2]

The fact you know that Jon vs Shogun is an actual example of a complete domination rather gives away that you know that Islam vs Charles was not and are just pretending otherwise for some reason.

Round 1 was a standard 10-9 for Islam. Round 2 up until the KD neither was particularly definitively winning yet.

Any other fight we'd say it was competitive enough and not some domination until the ending. I mean, was Justin vs Dustin 2 a domination by this seemingly new standard of scoring?

Saying round 2 was roughly even until Charles got finished is technically as accurate as saying Askerin and Masvidal was roughly even before the knee.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

Charles had absolutely nothing going for him. All he could do was stall and avoid being finished for 1.5 rounds.

 

[User9992]

Charlie was winning until he lost.
Thou he looked a weight class smaller than Isla.

Are you serious?

 

[markg171]

Saying round 2 was roughly even until Charles got finished is technically as accurate as saying Askerin and Masvidal was roughly even before the knee.

Round 2 lasted 3 minutes and 16 seconds. Not 5 seconds.

Thanks for letting us all know you're literally the dudes from the OP who remember nothing but the finish.

 

[old school 2]

Round 2 lasted 3 minutes and 16 seconds. Not 5 seconds.

Thanks for letting us all know you're literally the dudes from the OP who remember nothing but the finish.

Tony Ferguson lasted longer against Charles than Charles did against Islam, maybe we should do that rematch first.

 

[Boevik]

Charlie wasnt looking that bad, but Islam was constantly overwhelming him during both rounds and that brought to a finish eventually

 

[TheRealWill]

I dunno. I've watched it twice recently and it looks like Charles has absolutely nothing for Islam. Islam was winning on the feet and the ground isn't even close.

Islam striking has only gotten better. He'll finish Charles easily... again.

 

[Viscaria]

If you look at it that way, Dustin and Justin fight against Charles were also very competitive but you think those were one sided affair.

 

[moosaev]

We are all biased to a degree, just some of us don't make videos where we show 5% of a fight slowed down to 25% that is overlayed with text of "I LOVE FIGHTER X" and claim that as being a good perspective of a fight.

BTW - 15 years+ training over here homey, I'm a black belt.

Enjoy the snow and the mats.

Bro, you're wasting your time. He's part of a clutch of 5-6 posters who hate the Dagestanis deep in their bones. If islam & Khabib cured cancer he'd find a negative angle to the story,

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Bro, you're wasting your time. He's part of a clutch of 5-6 posters who hate the Dagestanis deep in their bones. If islam & Khabib cured cancer he'd find a negative angle to the story,

I did state earlier that "Basically I ultimately can't tell if you guys that claim this fight was competitive don't understand fighting entirely or just have blinders on because you hate Islam and/or love Charles" so thanks for adding some context to the discussion.

I like to engage in a discussion like this because even if the person I'm engaging refuses to believe or concede anything I can at least put out a fair argument of my perspective so that objective readers to the thread can actually gauge whose argument is more valid on that basis.

 

[moosaev]

I did state earlier that "Basically I ultimately can't tell if you guys that claim this fight was competitive don't understand fighting entirely or just have blinders on because you hate Islam and/or love Charles" so thanks for adding some context to the discussion.

I like to engage in a discussion like this because even if the person I'm engaging refuses to believe or concede anything I can at least put out a fair argument of my perspective so that objective readers to the thread can actually gauge whose argument is more valid on that basis.

i'm like you, i enjoy the technical puzzle of figuring out how fighters match up against each other,....during the lead up to Charles-Islam 1 i kept bringing up the fact that Islam is statistically one of the least hit fighters in UFC history and Charles won't be able to find him the way he found Poirier/Chandler/Gaethje,..instead of seriously engaging with that point i was just called an Islam nut hugger lol.