I've changed my mind on kipping pull-ups

[Oblivian]

HA! Ok. Squatting on the toes is not only less efficient, but it creates shearing force on the knees from the pressure of the femur and the tibia.

By sitting back on your heels, the pressure is transferred from the knees and into the glutes, hips, and quads. Thus saving your knees from becoming ruined and allowing the body to squat far more.

The body operates on certain movement patterns. That is why people place an emphasis on technique. It not only keeps the body safe, but more efficient.

Do you even anatomy bro?

His post that you are replying to is basically saying "avoiding injury is a goal". This can be expanded into "doing something in the most proficient manner is a goal". He's saying everything has a "goal", thus attacking his post about an exercise being a "function of ones goals" impossible. It's a ridiculous argument, and I really don't know if he's being serious or not because it's so bad.

 

[KILL KILL]

His post that you are replying to is basically saying "avoiding injury is a goal". This can be expanded into "doing something in the most proficient manner is a goal". He's saying everything has a "goal", thus attacking his post about an exercise being a "function of ones goals" impossible. It's a ridiculous argument, and I really don't know if he's being serious or not because it's so bad.

I gotcha. Well that's really fucking stupid. I thought he was a newbie that simply didn't understand why people use certain techniques.

 

[RafailNadull]

His post that you are replying to is basically saying "avoiding injury is a goal". This can be expanded into "doing something in the most proficient manner is a goal". He's saying everything has a "goal", thus attacking his post about an exercise being a "function of ones goals" impossible. It's a ridiculous argument, and I really don't know if he's being serious or not because it's so bad.

So what are you actually disagreeing with? I'd ask you to paraphrase what I'm saying first but I'm confident you'd produce nothing but a straw man so I'm gonna do it myself:

I'm saying that when you exercise, you have a number of objectives. Whether you're doing the right things, and doing them the right way, can only be evaluated with respect to those objectives.

If you harbor strong feelings over what a "real" squat is or a "real" pull up, if you get outraged when people "cheat" in the gym, well that's just too bad but your aesthetic tastes are irrelevant.

 

[RafailNadull]

HA! Ok. Squatting on the toes is not only less efficient, but it creates shearing force on the knees from the pressure of the femur and the tibia.

By sitting back on your heels, the pressure is transferred from the knees and into the glutes, hips, and quads. Thus saving your knees from becoming ruined and allowing the body to squat far more.

The body operates on certain movement patterns. That is why people place an emphasis on technique. It not only keeps the body safe, but more efficient.

Do you even anatomy bro?

Ok, so if one of my goals is the minimization of the risk to injure myself, I'm gonna do the exercises that way. Of course, if I'm really injury conscious, proper squats might just be a very bad exercise. Looks like... it depends on my goals. So, uh, why did you disagree in the first place?

 

[CarbonFistprint]

Ok, so if one of my goals is the minimization of the risk to injure myself, I'm gonna do the exercises that way. Of course, if I'm really injury conscious, proper squats might just be a very bad exercise. Looks like... it depends on my goals. So, uh, why did you disagree in the first place?

Please explain how proper squats are a bad exercise for the "injury conscious".

 

[Samuel Reynoso]

Kipping is too much of a skill and too difficult to load. Personally I think I'd find it difficult to use them as a strength exercise... But if I ever got on ninja warrior I would won't to be a pro at them.

 

[KILL KILL]

Ok, so if one of my goals is the minimization of the risk to injure myself, I'm gonna do the exercises that way. Of course, if I'm really injury conscious, proper squats might just be a very bad exercise. Looks like... it depends on my goals. So, uh, why did you disagree in the first place?

You're kind of rambling, but I'll bite.

why would squats be a bad idea if you're injury conscious?

Squatting is one of the most natural movements a human can do. If it causes injury, then you're simply doing it incorrectly or haven't developed the flexibility required.

 

[JRT6]

So what are you actually disagreeing with? I'd ask you to paraphrase what I'm saying first but I'm confident you'd produce nothing but a straw man so I'm gonna do it myself:

I'm saying that when you exercise, you have a number of objectives. Whether you're doing the right things, and doing them the right way, can only be evaluated with respect to those objectives.

If you harbor strong feelings over what a "real" squat is or a "real" pull up, if you get outraged when people "cheat" in the gym, well that's just too bad but your aesthetic tastes are irrelevant.

You said straw man so you must be smarter than us.

If your goal is to injured then yes there is no wrong way to do any exercise.

 

[Oblivian]

So what are you actually disagreeing with? I'd ask you to paraphrase what I'm saying first but I'm confident you'd produce nothing but a straw man so I'm gonna do it myself:

I'm saying that when you exercise, you have a number of objectives. Whether you're doing the right things, and doing them the right way, can only be evaluated with respect to those objectives.

If you harbor strong feelings over what a "real" squat is or a "real" pull up, if you get outraged when people "cheat" in the gym, well that's just too bad but your aesthetic tastes are irrelevant.

Here is specifically what I quoted:

Do explain, then, why a rounded back and toe-squatting are wrong without referencing any goals. In particular, avoid mentioning any goals one might have regarding the avoidance of injury. Go ahead.

That was in response to someone saying there is a right and wrong way to do an exercise based on the mechanical function of the body. An example would be that you would not want to be squatting on your toes with a rounded back. Your argument is incredibly weak that you can't say it's wrong "without referencing any goals" or "mentioning any goals one might have regarding the avoidance of injury". Avoiding getting hurt or injured is a given under every circumstance besides when the pros may outweigh the cons. Good luck finding the pros of squatting that way which would outweigh the cons. I don't think you'd find that being the right way to squat under any goal besides the most efficient way to get injured without making good gains. It's an idiotic argumentative position.

 

[Aethyr]

The right way to do an exercise is a function of one's goals. That's the point. There is no right way of doing an exercise independent of goals.

Sometimes, people feel pressured to perform exercises a certain way just because some dumb bro thinks it's cheating or unmanly to do it in a different way. They shouldn't feel that way.

That crap can be used to justify anything and everything. All I have to do is invent some bullshit "goal" to fit the piss poor form.

You: I can squat 700 lbs!
Me: Whoa, that's impressive.
You: On the smith machine, with 2" depth.
Me: Uh, that's not a proper squat.
You: Don't hurt my feelings with your bro science, my form perfectly acceptable and is in accordance with my exercise goals, ok?

Kipping pullups serve one and only one purpose, to fuel your ego that you can do 10x more pullups than you actually can. Its no different than those bullshit assisted bench press lifts with a bench shirt and that hockey puck thing they put on your chest so you only have to move the bar 3 inches - pure ego and numbers. Powerlifting isn't immune to the bullshit.

 

[Samuel Reynoso]

Everyone is getting all worked up about this guy's statement but overall he has had the most sound logic. The only reasonable criticism has been that it is a platitude. That is to say it served no purpose in the thread, and brings no value to the thread. I think the fact that people a arguing over his validity shows not everyone understands the importance of the principle that makes up his statement.

What this guy did fundamentally by making his statement was assert the premise that arguments require a promise. Or more specifically; in order to reason to a conclusion as to the value of an exercise one must first establish what constitutes value.

I understand how it might seem like a pointless statement but I think it highlights an areas where people make a lot of mistakes when their brain is thinking. They don't ask enough foundational questions and jump to conclusions.

Also the guy was right. You can argue over how important it is, but no one will be able to argue with the validity of the strongest interpretation of his statement. Attacking his validity is an error in judgement.

 

[Wikinger]

Kipping pullups serve one and only one purpose, to fuel your ego that you can do 10x more pullups than you actually can. Its no different than those bullshit assisted bench press lifts with a bench shirt and that hockey puck thing they put on your chest so you only have to move the bar 3 inches - pure ego and numbers. Powerlifting isn't immune to the bullshit.

like push pressing, too?

broad brushing a bit?

 

[Aethyr]

like push pressing, too?

broad brushing a bit?

Push pressing is used as an assistance exercise for clean and jerk, so no, its not equivalent to a kipping pull-up, which is an assistance exercise for nothing. Contrary to a non-raw bench, the jerk requires a combination of strength, explosiveness and balance beyond that of a strict overhead press, which is more of a pure strength movement. I'm willing to bet an olympic weighlifter can push-press more than a powerlifter of equivalent weightclass that can overhead press more than the weightlifter.

The bench shirt is on par with kipping pull-ups in the realm of stupidity. You might as well let people attach springs to their legs to increase their squats. Just fucking put less weight on if you need a physical device to effectively decrease the gravitational pull of the weight. Nope. My ego won't let me decrease weight. Or reps.

 

[redaxe]

Enjoy your SLAP tear, brah.

 

[JosephDredd]

Enjoy your SLAP tear, brah.

I'm doing them really carefully. Controlled descent and flexing my knees up instead of swinging them up. At no point do my shoulders come forward of my hips.

 

[Wikinger]

Push pressing is used as an assistance exercise for clean and jerk, so no, its not equivalent to a kipping pull-up, which is an assistance exercise for nothing. Contrary to a non-raw bench, the jerk requires a combination of strength, explosiveness and balance beyond that of a strict overhead press, which is more of a pure strength movement. I'm willing to bet an olympic weighlifter can push-press more than a powerlifter of equivalent weightclass that can overhead press more than the weightlifter.

The bench shirt is on par with kipping pull-ups in the realm of stupidity. You might as well let people attach springs to their legs to increase their squats. Just fucking put less weight on if you need a physical device to effectively decrease the gravitational pull of the weight. Nope. My ego won't let me decrease weight. Or reps.

cool enough.

but the "it only feeds the ego" is broad brush.

kipping doesn't fit your goals or mine, but if it does fit someone else's, and they can perform them safely, why not? no need to judge like that when you haven't a clue about them. just that.

and I do see it as an assistance to the pullup, btw. but again, it's not in my goals, so I will be joining you in the "non kipping" club

 

[Aethyr]

cool enough.

but the "it only feeds the ego" is broad brush.

kipping doesn't fit your goals or mine, but if it does fit someone else's, and they can perform them safely, why not? no need to judge like that when you haven't a clue about them. just that.

and I do see it as an assistance to the pullup, btw. but again, it's not in my goals, so I will be joining you in the "non kipping" club

Yeah its a broad brush, but my reasoning is thus: why is it that every bad form version of an exercise results in either being able to lift more weight or do more reps and never the opposite?

Lifting, despite any claims to the contrary, has a very strong ego component to it. So I get very suspicious when an exercise modified to produce massive increase in weight or reps is not ego motivated, but, cough, exercise goal motivated.

Like I said, I'm not just picking on crossfit with kipping pullups. Powerlifting has the same shit with its assisted bench.

 

[Redbantam]

Push pressing is used as an assistance exercise for clean and jerk, so no, its not equivalent to a kipping pull-up, which is an assistance exercise for nothing.

Actually, the kipping pullup is a competition exercise in crossfit, so in your analogy it would be equivalent to the clean and jerk, but I agree that it has little carryover to other things.

 

[Eric Brown]

Actually, the kipping pullup is a competition exercise in crossfit, so in your analogy it would be equivalent to the clean and jerk, but I agree that it has little carryover to other things.

Yeah, but the clean and jerk serves a purpose.

Well, I suppose the kipping pull up does as well, such as paying off the student loans of orthopedic surgeons.

 

[peregrine]

I haven't seen it mentioned here but the kipping pull up is similar to a plyometric movement and even the salmon wall...thus climbers use it a lot