Social Jordan Peterson thread, V.4 - "Darwinian truth" and misreading Nietzsche

Ok, so it's a historically contingent exclusiveness that's the problem. That I can work with since it is, ultimately, contingent and there's no absolute reason to have them excluding each other.

I think Sam's response to this would be "Even if we only came to accept Newtonian truth as the absolute truth at the end of this process, it was truth all along, and we were previously in error."

I think Peterson's response to this - and he may actually make it at some point - is that scientific/Newtonian truth would only be accepted as a dominant conception of truth insofar as it fulfills the conditions of Darwinian truths - that it keeps on spitting out answers that are "true enough" in a Darwinian sense. Essentially, I suspect he would say "Newtonian truth is so popular only because it consistently accomplishes what Darwinian truth." This may hinge on two different starting points for them - Harris proceeding from a concern for what is true, and Peterson proceeding from a concern for what.

I think you're right about both here.

The concept of "Darwinian truth" is pretty soft as Peterson uses it - I don't think he's confident about how exactly it should be employed, partly because he seems to still be thinking about it and partly because the "truth" that's ultimately compatible with survival is bound to be fairly variable and hence imprecise.

Harris is able to speak much more fluently about scientific truth because it is extremely precise and because he's not interested in the ad abdsurdum consequences of adopting it completely (likely because he's so steeped in refuting religion that this problem seems lightyears away). Plenty of so-called "scientific rationalists" (NDT comes to mind) are guilty of this is well.

Oh. This captures what I suspect Peterson might have responded with. I'll have to look up this Alvin Platinga fellow...

I'm not sure I believe it either, and I do think that Nietzsche is providing a more thoughtful treatment of this issue. The more I think about this, the more I think that the issue is one of describing a perceived absolute truth, versus a description of describing how human beings actually arrive at truth.

Harris will say "there is an absolute truth independent of human observation or consideration."

Peterson will say "That's not how people determine what's true - it's a product of relation to a nested teleological end, and that end comes from a biological substrate. What what humans, in practice, determine to be truths will be things that achieve that end, and their degree of truth is based on their

Nietzsche's response would be "Peterson's description of human activity is right but his model of truth is wrong. Why would you call that truth rather than merely an end beneficial to life? Everything you call truth could very well be an error that is beneficial to life, and a standard of value derived from that benefit doesn't actually reveal a thing's truth, whatever we call it."

I think Sam's model of truth has more claim to be right, but it may be inconsequential because Peterson's observation about human behaviour is right - but he goes too far in calling it truth. It's potentially a very useful descriptive model though.

Of the 3 above I probably agree with Nietzsche the most, since Peterson at times seems to be forcing the contradiction between Newtonian truth and Darwinian truth.

I think the reason he wants to do this is because pure scientific truth is untenable, so there must be some relationship between the two even if you can't exactly use both to solve the same problems.

He also seems to invoke some aspect of group selection, since Darwinian truth includes an element of social stability. It could very well be the case that the Darwinian truth properly executed on the individual level leads to collective disaster. That's not incompatible with evolution at all imo.

That's a very good thought on this. "The worst possible situation for everyone" does seem to have a bit of a "Darwinian truth" ring to it, as I'm not sure that a scientific viewpoint could arrive at a "worst possible scenario." I've heard Sam give some lame argument about people getting their arms cut off but he fails to deal with any sort of nuance around that issue, about deviant, utilitarian, or just competing values. The day I get shot is probably a bad day - unless I get shot to save my child's life. Then it might be a good day, all things considered. The valuation of the good or bad comes from a variety of places and it's not nearly as clear cut as I've seen him present...

Yea that line was one of the many annoyances from Harris' The Moral Landscape. It's literally a meta-ethical placeholder despite him denying that he's doing meta-ethics or merely place-holding anything.

It actually reminds me a bit of the very beginning of Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, when he introduces the concept of eudaimonia. Eudaimonia is similarly a term meant to outline the form of the greatest possible good, whatever it happens to be, which Aristotle then proceeds to fill in with content through the rest of the book.

Harris doesn't actually fill in the content. He just says that whatever all-encompassing "bad" qualities this situations turns out to have, moving away from it will be good, and science can dictate the method for doing that.

Yes. And now I have to put some thought into how to phrase a response to your question about foundation about values in that other thread. Hrm... It really does hinge on whether we're talking about a foundation of values that are credible in an absolute sense, or whether we're talking about functional values that are not absolutely defensible, in which case we have to wade into the mire of postmodernism and pick out a hill to stand on. Will get back to you.

Sweet! And don't forget the follow-up question too ;)
 
That's just the tip of it, I am actually in the process of making a recording on the subject, but each time I go down the rabbit hole and do the research I find new claims that are false. By now I have material for maybe 2-3 videos covering different topics. It's annoying that I have to use hours of reading material and literature to be able to debunk the claims because of the gish gallop, but seeing as I have a physiology background and that I'm allergic to bullshit it's worth it. I wanted to make a seperate thread on it but it seemed like everything is being compiled in these large Peterson threads.

I actually like Peterson to some extent, as weird as it sounds, and I think he's a skilled debater and a somewhat decent psychologist. Unfortunately that doesn't prevent him from spewing a lot of nonsense. I have a hard time giving him the benefit of the doubt here, I truly fear he knows what he is doing and is being deliberately manipulative.

@Sano, now do Chomsky.
Can't say I've seen enough of Chomsky to make any definitive statements about the factual nature of his claims. Are you trying to deflect from the Peterson criticism or?
 
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@Sano. No, I just found your post really interesting and I'd love to see Chomsky disassembled in the same way.

Petersen's biggest transgression seems to be pretending that because he's an expert on one thing, that makes him an expert on all things.

I still think the original stuff that got him on the map, he was dead right about, while there's plenty ITT to show that he got a bit carried away delving into other areas where he wasn't really an expert.

I do think someone with the capacity you have to research and debunk people shouldn't be focusing entirely on guys you don't like though. I'd sincerely love to see you tackle one of the leftie sacred cows like Chomsky as well.
 
It was actually a great discussion between the two. Plus the moderator had some great insight.
The one with Weinstein as moderator? I've been meaning to check that one out as Weinstein could be a good bridge between the two, has more personality, and seems more balanced then Peterson or Harris.
 
@Sano. No, I just found your post really interesting and I'd love to see Chomsky disassembled in the same way.

Petersen's biggest transgression seems to be pretending that because he's an expert on one thing, that makes him an expert on all things.

I still think the original stuff that got him on the map, he was dead right about, while there's plenty ITT to show that he got a bit carried away delving into other areas where he wasn't really an expert.

I do think someone with the capacity you have to research and debunk people shouldn't be focusing entirely on guys you don't like though. I'd sincerely love to see you tackle one of the leftie sacred cows like Chomsky as well.
I'm pretty sure I would disagree with the initial things that put him on the map being right. As far as I remember he's been preaching the same things I went over for years and what initially catapulted him into the mainstream was his misinterpretation and representation of bill C-16. I like his advice on self responsibility, but he does it in a completely reductionist way while invoking religion constantly. His book 12 rules is seething with religious writing and more importantly it's hugely contradictory. In chapter 4 he tells the reader to not compare themselves to others, yet the whole basis of his philosphy is how the comparisons of the dominance hierarchy is the most important thing in the world. When he starts with the "women are chaos, men are order" I can hardly take it. His book is named the antidote for chaos, in the context of what he writes about femininity it paints a picture about how he and his readers view the female. He tells people to put their house in order before they criticise the world, but he is making his living off of embolding disenfranchised youth to criticise "SJWs", feminism and "PC" culture. Chapter 8 compells the reader to tell the truth, yet as shown here he makes false and misleading statements constantly. He tries to get around this by defining truth on his own terms, which is pure sophistry. Chapter 10 tells the reader to be precise in their speech, yet no one spews more word salad than Peterson or his followers. Contradictions within contradictions.

Again, I could go on and on and on.

Interesting point about researching the claims of people I like. I think the reason why I happen to spend the most time on the ones I don't is because I naturally tend to not like people if I have a sense that their statements are not correct, or that they are propagandizing. Obviously I do have my biases as well, although I try to read the entirety of the literature when I do. If I get around to watching Chomsky, I don't know if I would feel compelled to "debunk" him as vehemently because as much as I might disagree with his opinions, if he didn't make overtly misleading or false statements then I wouldn't have a reason to. As far as I understand, he was at least very respected in his field as a linguist, and one of the pioneers of cognitive science.

I appreciate the acknowledgement for the effort in my input, so thanks for that.
 
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Great work to all involved in this thread so far. I'm sorry to have missed the last one.
 
That's just the tip of it, I am actually in the process of making a recording on the subject, but each time I go down the rabbit hole and do the research I find new claims that are false. By now I have material for maybe 2-3 videos covering different topics. It's annoying that I have to use hours of reading material and literature to be able to debunk the claims because of the gish gallop, but seeing as I have a physiology background and that I'm allergic to bullshit it's worth it. I wanted to make a seperate thread on it but it seemed like everything is being compiled in these large Peterson threads.

I actually like Peterson to some extent, as weird as it sounds, and I think he's a skilled debater and a somewhat decent psychologist. Unfortunately that doesn't prevent him from spewing a lot of nonsense. I have a hard time giving him the benefit of the doubt here, I truly fear he knows what he is doing and is being deliberately misleading.


Can't say I've seen enough of Chomsky to make any definitive statements about the factual nature of his claims. Are you trying to deflect from the Peterson criticism or?

He found his gold mine and he's going to dig it as deep as he can for as long as he can.

That's how I see it.
 
He found his gold mine and he's going to dig it as deep as he can for as long as he can.

That's how I see it.
He's going to ride that money train untill the end. It'll be interesting to see how long it lasts, it seems like the honeymoon phase is about to be over.

I still think he's doing something he believes in, or at least attemps to, but the money is certainly enabling him.
 
The concept of "Darwinian truth" as the litmus for testing a moral philosophy fails on the basis that, according to neo-Darwinism, every beneficial adaptation to a particular environment is a product of a random, natural, unearned, imposed process and has nothing whatsoever to do with any conscious choices made by the beneficially adapted organism.

Darwinism is essentially the "all natural" version of Calvinism's predestination and unconditional election. If you "win" you didn't earn it or deserve it. And if you "lose" you didn't earn it or deserve it.
 
I'm pretty sure I would disagree with the initial things that put him on the map being right. As far as I remember he's been preaching the same things I went over for years and what initially catapulted him into the mainstream was his misinterpretation and representation of bill C-16. I like his advice on self responsibility, but he does it in a completely reductionist way while invoking religion constantly. His book 12 rules is seething with religious writing and more importantly it's hugely contradictory. In chapter 4 he tells the reader to not compare themselves to others, yet the whole basis of his philosphy is how the comparisons of the dominance hierarchy is the most important thing in the world. When he starts with the "women are chaos, men are order" I can hardly take it. His book is named the antidote for chaos, in the context of what he writes about femininity it paints a picture about how he and his readers view the female. He tells people to put their house in order before they criticise the world, but he is making his living off of embolding disenfranchised youth to criticise "SJWs", feminism and "PC" culture. Chapter 8 compells the reader to tell the truth, yet as shown here he makes false and misleading statements constantly. He tries to get around this by defining truth on his own terms, which is pure sophistry. Chapter 10 tells the reader to be precise in their speech, yet no one spews more word salad than Peterson or his followers. Contradictions within contradictions.

Again, I could go on and on and on.

Interesting point about researching the claims of people I like. I think the reason why I happen to spend the most time on the ones I don't is because I naturally tend to not like people if I have a sense that their statements are not correct, or that they are propagandizing. Obviously I do have my biases as well, although I try to read the entirety of the literature when I do. If I get around to watching Chomsky, I don't know if I would feel compelled to "debunk" him as vehemently because as much as I might disagree with his opinions, if he didn't make overtly misleading or false statements then I wouldn't have a reason to. As far as I understand, he was at least very respected in his field as a linguist, and one of the pioneers of cognitive science.

I appreciate the acknowledgement for the effort in my input, so thanks for that.

There's a pretty clear bias in here though. You criticize Petersen for going after SJWs and propagandizing, but surely SJWs are one of the most guilty groups probably in history when it comes to spreading false propaganda...
 
There's a pretty clear bias in here though. You criticize Petersen for going after SJWs and propagandizing, but surely SJWs are one of the most guilty groups probably in history when it comes to spreading false propaganda...
How is it bias if he did not defend SJWs? Heck, even using the term shows the speaker at least has some qualms with them, seeing as how it is spread mainly by self-proclaimed "sceptics" (the Amazing Atheists and Sargons of the world).

It is entirely possible (and very, very reasonable) to think that "SJWs" are at the same time a misguided, overly belligerent group... and NOT an existential threat to modern society.
 
In line with the OP, I'd like to put forth some other criticisms of Peterson. I think starting with the post from another user in the last thread is a good place.

"Like what? I have never heard him misspeak on evolutionary biology or neuroscience. My wife a Psychiatrist, has never heard him misspeak on either. This is where the left piles on because for them truth is social orthodoxy. Maintaining the collective lie is the most important thing because all they care about is the status gained by remaining within that collective, so when it collapses they are left looking the fool." -
@Kindacrazy

Peterson wavers from one point to another, cherrypicking facts and using semantics, wordplay and pseudoscientific claims. As an example in regards to evolutionary biology, let's examine his reiteration of the literature on primates and social dominance hierarchy. Notice his appeal to science here btw (hypocritical considering his metaphorical truth spill).

He often choses the aggressive and linear dominance part of chimp social relations, which in reality varies from different groups which he fails to mention (1), instead of chosing examples like the Bonobos who have an entirely different social structure. They are much less aggressive, do not readily fight over territory and use sex as a primary conflict resolution (2). They are equally related to humans as chimps on the genetic level. Moving further, there are other primate species like woolly spider monkeys that are entirely egalitarian with no hierarchiel structures (3), and the vast majority of the research shows that more tolerant and socially inclusive primate species do better AND are more intelligent (4).

Anthropologists suggest that the first tribes of humans lived in egalitarian socieites. This is hypothesized to be part of our evolution and what seperates us from most other primates, and many evolutionary scientist further hypothesize that altruism is a necessary evolved trait of humans (5, 6, 7). Looking further towards human societies today, rank fluctuates between groups and cultural norms dictates vastly different social structures. We funtion as a species and a society within rank, but that's not the entire picture given to us by the scientific literature. It's NOT as black and white as he makes it out to be and either he is unaware of this fact, or he is deliberately misleading his audience.

In regards to neuroscience and biology lets talk about the famous lobster analogy, which no neuroscentist would make. A lobster doesn't even have a centralised nervous system (8). Lobster live at the bottom of the sea, they don't walk upright (in regards to lobster posture), they can regrow limbs, they don't grow old and they eat each other. So what they have serotonin? So does almost every other living thing, including plants. Serotonin in ants also modify their behavior (9), they are also social creatures, is that therefor evidence of the inherent collectivism, as another poster mentioned, and does that show us our natural state is the matriachy? Afterall, they are both anthropods and ants evolved from crustaceans (10). There's so many things wrong with this "analogy", and the fact that Peterson tries to source it as scientifically valid link to human neurophysiology and behavior is disingenuous.

Serotonin in crustacians and other invertebrates does not represent human social interactions, and in humans the role of serotonin is obviously much more complex (11). In fact, even in the research linked on Petersons own site, the study on lobsters claim that while there was a behavorial change in willingness to fight when crustacians were injected with serotonin, this change did not occur if they were placed in close proximity for prolonged periods (12). So EVEN THE REDUCTIONISTIC MISLEADING ARGUMENT is being presented factually incorrect and misleading.

He claims to be an individualist and liberal capitalist, and that government imposing their will on the people is totalitarianism, yet in the case with Alex Jones recently he opted for goverment intervention making these business public utility (I strongly disagree with Jones being banned btw, as much as I think he's a dangerous POS):


He champions as an absolute free speech and rights advocate, yet he supports and participates in propaganda pieces for Prager University (which do not offer a degree btw). Prager U, created by Jewish fundamentalist and neo-conservative Dennis Prager, vehemently censor evolution theory and LGBT rights. Blasphemy is a deadly sin in the bible, hardly the text you'd want to rely on for free speech. Peterson even wanted to create his own university, and was talking about it last year (13). He is seeming more and more delusional.

In a follow up, he also posted a blatantly incorrect, and easily debunked, climate change denying video from Prager U on his twitter:


Peterson rose to fame by fighting the "Social Justice Warriors" which he claims are destroying the very fabric of society, yet he, like many of the anti-SJWs, completely overestimate the impact and prevelance of gender pronouns, safe spaces and anti-free speech sentiments on the left. The entire LGBT is about 3,8% of the population, which is far below what most think (14), and trans people are only 0,6% of the population (15). Have you ever met a single person in real life that wanted you to call them another gender? Homosexuals and trans people have always existed, why is it so important? In regards to the "totalitarian neo-marxist postmodernists" college campuses, while it is true that the left generally are more inclined to want restrictions on hateful speech, a survey from the Knightfoundation and Gallup shows that the clear majority of college students, including democrats, prefers an open environment with offensive speech to a prohibted one with with positive speech (16, 17):
vg3alz.jpg


This is not to say that there are not real problems with a minority of college students shutting down speech and being idiots and insufferable, but nothing supports it being the world ending apocalypse that the "anti SJWs" propose and propagandize.

What else... He misrepresented bill C-16 which was already in effect for 5 years in the state the was living in before they started talking about it, he says the bible is archetypes and stories, yet he wont say whether or not he believes jesus rose from the dead, he believes there are no atheist because they would be murderers, he makes presuppositional arguments and claims we cant have morality without the bible, he claims people can only quit smoking because of supernatural experiences, he believes in the supernatural, he claims to hate postmodernism while being the biggest postmodernist around. He waffles and shifts on the topic of religion completely and mixes half truths with pseudoscientific sophistry and lazy philosophy. He's constantly inconsistent in his claims. He calls on science when he needs to, but he cherry picks and misinterpret research, then when he science gets in the way of his argument it means nothing and it's all "metaphorical truths" and "darwinian truths" which he also misinteprets.

Want me to go on? This is just what I can remember without thinking about more of his claims. Dare to say I am taking him out of context.

Please say "Elia Martell" before your next post in this series.
 
I like Jordan Peterson, I think he is a good father figure/mentor for a lot of young men. But, I think he is still a bit blue pilled on some issues and he talks/drones on way too much.
 
I like Jordan Peterson, I think he is a good father figure/mentor for a lot of young men. But, I think he is still a bit blue pilled on some issues and he talks/drones on way too much.
Weren't you like the only diehard Tim Sylvia fan in existence?
 
The concept of "Darwinian truth" as the litmus for testing a moral philosophy fails on the basis that, according to neo-Darwinism, every beneficial adaptation to a particular environment is a product of a random, natural, unearned, imposed process and has nothing whatsoever to do with any conscious choices made by the beneficially adapted organism.

Darwinism is essentially the "all natural" version of Calvinism's predestination and unconditional election. If you "win" you didn't earn it or deserve it. And if you "lose" you didn't earn it or deserve it.
Not to mention Darwinism is about reproduction over some time scale, not merely survival. Because you have to count ducks before you hatch to determine what is D-true enough to result in reproduction, it is a useless concept beyond getting to deem whatever you want 'beneficial to fitness' and therefore true. If JP was serious about it he would look no further than Genghis Khan for moral guidance, ancestor of 1/200 men alive today.
 
How is it bias if he did not defend SJWs? Heck, even using the term shows the speaker at least has some qualms with them, seeing as how it is spread mainly by self-proclaimed "sceptics" (the Amazing Atheists and Sargons of the world).

It is entirely possible (and very, very reasonable) to think that "SJWs" are at the same time a misguided, overly belligerent group... and NOT an existential threat to modern society.


The thing is they've also bastardized the definition of "SJW" to mean "anyone that holds an opinion about something I don't like"

It's their way of broad brushing and ignoring the nuance of things.
 
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