Judo or boxing twice a week

[TheMaster]

Hey guys

I have the opportunity to do either judo twice a week and boxing once a week, or vice versa. Which one would you choose? I have no desire to compete, only to get fit and learn the skills, and be able to beat the average joe.( Doesnt plan on it though )

I heard once that is easier to learn to strike, than grappling/ground work. But at the same time Judo is hard on the body.

If you are 27, I would go with the Judo more frequently. Like others have said, grappling is harder on the body with more recovery so it helps to put the time and the work in when you are younger, you can do striking training until you are 60+ without any issues as long as your body holds out.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I am 27

I already do both, but im just unsure which to do twice.

This is legitimately a no brainer - do Judo at least twice/week and more if you can handle it. Assuming you're healthy with no chronic injuries, you're still young enough to handle that routine going full speed. By mid 30's if you haven't gotten comfortable with ukemi, taking down and being taken down safely, it will be much harder to learn properly. I have seen this with many many many BJJ guys and once you're past a certain age, your body is stiffer and less resilient and if you're still gunshy with TDs, you'll probably never learn them properly.

Good ukemi is among the most useful (if not THE most useful) things you can learn in martial arts. Unless you're unlucky or an idiot, you're unlikely to ever have to fight someone hand to hand in the street. But falls onto concrete or asphalt happen in daily life and ukemi has saved my ass several times in what otherwise could have resulted in crippling head injuries. Training Judo is bar none the best way to learn ukemi in a controlled environment.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yea fair enough, but for some reason I cringe thinking of getting thrown on those cold ass mats right now, where a little light sparring doesn’t seem to bother me as much. But I still train wrestling enthusiastically, I guess it’s mostly perception.

You can never completely avoid injuries in Judo but I've found that much like in BJJ, the more experienced your training partner, generally the less damage you'll take. And I'm 49 and don't mind doing live randori (wish we could do more of it) because it's bearable taking a big throw every now and then, especially if you have the opportunity to go with it or otherwise scramble while being thrown to reduce the impact. The worst is when you're drilling fit ins and you get paired with Lenny, the stiff yellow belt with retard strength and you have to let him throw you 10 times each full speed with o goshi, o soto and kata guruma and you have to let him do them without resisting. Crashiing to the mat over and over like that when other guy isn't very smooth is like being forced to compete in power slap league.

 

[Smato_rules]

You can never completely avoid injuries in Judo but I've found that much like in BJJ, the more experienced your training partner, generally the less damage you'll take. And I'm 49 and don't mind doing live randori (wish we could do more of it) because it's bearable taking a big throw every now and then, especially if you have the opportunity to go with it or otherwise scramble while being thrown to reduce the impact. The worst is when you're drilling fit ins and you get paired with Lenny, the stiff yellow belt with retard strength and you have to let him throw you 10 times each full speed with o goshi, o soto and kata guruma and you have to let him do them without resisting. Crashiing to the mat over and over like that when other guy isn't very smooth is like being forced to compete in power slap league.

Yea the sound of that makes my bones ache haha I do judo standup at my bjj gym and nobody really knows what they are doing so it’s just a mess

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yea the sound of that makes my bones ache haha I do judo standup at my bjj gym and nobody really knows what they are doing so it’s just a mess

It's definitely rough if no one really knows what they're doing but at least at a legit Judo gym, there will be quality instructors who will try to keep everyone as safe as possible. At my BJJ gym we only ever go live TDs on nogi days. For Judo throws, I have to settle for the odd BJJ roll when someone agrees to start standing with me.

 

[maximus__]

It's definitely rough if no one really knows what they're doing but at least at a legit Judo gym, there will be quality instructors who will try to keep everyone as safe as possible. At my BJJ gym we only ever go live TDs on nogi days. For Judo throws, I have to settle for the odd BJJ roll when someone agrees to start standing with me.

Man that's crazy. I wrestle up for takedowns nearly every session and get thrown all the time. I will say I don't hit blast doubles very often due to mat space, but I just pick the takedowns for the space I have available. It's no different to not taking someone down and losing the position during a comp. I always get some wrestling in each session.

 

[M0ller]

So Judo twice given that my age and that its skill set is harder to learn, than boxing which will make me a decent fighter in 12-18 months, given i learn and stay consistent.

Could an idea be to alternate between the weeks, so week 1 is boxing twice and judo once and then week 2 is judo twice and boxing once and then repeat?

 

[ChickenBrother]

Man that's crazy. I wrestle up for takedowns nearly every session and get thrown all the time. I will say I don't hit blast doubles very often due to mat space, but I just pick the takedowns for the space I have available. It's no different to not taking someone down and losing the position during a comp. I always get some wrestling in each session.

Yeah I like to wrestle up too. My go to guard game is old man butterfly sweep or knee shield into either kimura trap or come up into dogfight position. I also turtle out of guard passes a lot and come up into singles that way. If other guy is going for a single, I like to counter with overhook whizzer uchi mata. Wrestling scrambles often happen in rolling but unless we start on the feet, there's rarely any point in the roll when both guys are facing off standing, with each attempting to TD the other. Despite me having been as considerate as possible as a former wrestler and Judoka, a lot of guys at my gym think I'm the "crazy Judo guy" and immediately butt flop or pull guard ASAP as soon as I stand up. It's frustrating because I just want to work some stand up and am willing to go slow and low to help them. I've resorted to just being like F it, I'll let you take me down and we'll start the roll in whatever position you land me in. Most guys are willing to do that.

 

[ChickenBrother]

So Judo twice given that my age and that its skill set is harder to learn, than boxing which will make me a decent fighter in 12-18 months, given i learn and stay consistent.

Could an idea be to alternate between the weeks, so week 1 is boxing twice and judo once and then week 2 is judo twice and boxing once and then repeat?

Given you have no desire to compete, I'd go to as much Judo as possible at your age. Both arts are good for self-defense but worrying about "which style is best for da' streetz" is LARPing and you shouldn't be getting into street fights anyway unless you're looking for a fight or just really unlucky.

The other difference is that you NEED training partners to train Judo but not so for boxing. As long as you're seeing a competent boxing instructor 1 x week correcting your form, footwork, holding pads and/or sparring, you can make (sometimes significant) progress between classes by drilling on your own. That's what I did in my teens/early 20's. Until you're pretty seasoned, you should be doing a shitload of shadow boxing, working your jab, combos and footwork on your own. Of course there's no substitute for working with a coach but I won 5 ammy fights vs. comparably low level guys being 80% self-taught. That would not be possible in Judo.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Hey guys

I have the opportunity to do either judo twice a week and boxing once a week, or vice versa. Which one would you choose? I have no desire to compete, only to get fit and learn the skills, and be able to beat the average joe.( Doesnt plan on it though )

I heard once that is easier to learn to strike, than grappling/ground work. But at the same time Judo is hard on the body.

Box 3x a week and leave judo alone, imo.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Given you have no desire to compete, I'd go to as much Judo as possible at your age. Both arts are good for self-defense but worrying about "which style is best for da' streetz" is LARPing and you shouldn't be getting into street fights anyway unless you're looking for a fight or just really unlucky.

The other difference is that you NEED training partners to train Judo but not so for boxing. As long as you're seeing a competent boxing instructor 1 x week correcting your form, footwork, holding pads and/or sparring, you can make (sometimes significant) progress between classes by drilling on your own. That's what I did in my teens/early 20's. Until you're pretty seasoned, you should be doing a shitload of shadow boxing, working your jab, combos and footwork on your own. Of course there's no substitute for working with a coach but I won 5 ammy fights vs. comparably low level guys being 80% self-taught. That would not be possible in Judo.

I have to disagree there brother. Trying to be a competent fighter who can strike and grapple is a very common goal for people who view combat sports as facets of "fighting". This being an MMA forum, I think we have a lot of people here, including myself, who have that view. In order to be a competent fighter you need to be able to strike and grapple. It doesn't mean we fight on the street.

I have a similar dilemna to TS as I have started with striking 30 years ago, started judo in my late 20's and did striking and judo in // through my 30's.

As we get older it becomes difficult to get the mix right. Like TS, 3x / week seems to be the sweet spot IMO. The perfect case is to do 3x the same discipline, which allows you to get good at it. But if you have more than one discipline, you will do 2x and 1x. You will get decent at the discipline you favour with 2x. You will not evolve at 1x but merely maintain at best. So which one do you neglect? It's a VERY tough decision.

TS, do you spar at boxing? That s a tough aspect. If not, then IMO it's a waste of time. However, the catch 22 with boxing is that as you get better, (3 years at 2x/week will make you competent), you will spar with better people and will take more damage to the head, unless you decide not to follow, which is also fine, but this is where you will put a cap on your progression. However, as others have observed, 2x/week will allow you to compete in judo after a couple of years if you want without adverse effects unless you take a bad fall.

Lastly, it' s also a matter of transferable skills. Judo will make you stronger, more flexible and explosive than boxing. Boxing will make you quicker / more coordinated than judo. You need to decide which one you want to develop.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Box 3x a week and leave judo alone, imo.

YOu say that because you are a pure striker, dude. As I wrote in my post, many of us are hybrid.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I have to disagree there brother. Trying to be a competent fighter who can strike and grapple is a very common goal for people who view combat sports as facets of "fighting". This being an MMA forum, I think we have a lot of people here, including myself, who have that view. In order to be a competent fighter you need to be able to strike and grapple. It doesn't mean we fight on the street.

I have a similar dilemna to TS as I have started with striking 30 years ago, started judo in my late 20's and did striking and judo in // through my 30's.

As we get older it becomes difficult to get the mix right. Like TS, 3x / week seems to be the sweet spot IMO. The perfect case is to do 3x the same discipline, which allows you to get good at it. But if you have more than one discipline, you will do 2x and 1x. You will get decent at the discipline you favour with 2x. You will not evolve at 1x but merely maintain at best. So which one do you neglect? It's a VERY tough decision.

TS, do you spar at boxing? That s a tough aspect. If not, then IMO it's a waste of time. However, the catch 22 with boxing is that as you get better, (3 years at 2x/week will make you competent), you will spar with better people and will take more damage to the head, unless you decide not to follow, which is also fine, but this is where you will put a cap on your progression. However, as others have observed, 2x/week will allow you to compete in judo after a couple of years if you want without adverse effects unless you take a bad fall.

Lastly, it' s also a matter of transferable skills. Judo will make you stronger, more flexible and explosive than boxing. Boxing will make you quicker / more coordinated than judo. You need to decide which one you want to develop.

I agree with all of this bro. I was just suggesting TS prioritize Judo at this point only account of him being 27 and (from the sound of his posts) relatively inexperienced at both. Assuming he's like most folks I've trained with, his window to learn and ingrain proper ukemi is closing (but he can still do it if he's healthy). You can learn/improve boxing at any age but particularly for Judo, IME the younger you start the better, and your ceiling is lower with age.

Yes many of us train to be well-rounded but even that considered, I'd take Judo over boxing for self-defense. With or without gloves, achieving a one-punch KO is very difficult unless you're very skilled or very lucky. But a merely proficient Judoka will easily TD and control a lesser skilled opponent. And Judo is also more applicable in more situations. In a full blown fight, I'd still rather clinch and TD a brawler vs. engaging him in fucking fisticuffs. But if you're boxing someone on the street, you're in a fight. Judo can allow you to trip or sweep other guy onto the ground with control without ever throwing a punch and hopefully encouraging other guy not to either.

But all of that is still LARPing. I'd still go with Judo for the ukemi.

And this isn't "build an MMA fighter in 90 days." Proper technique is ingrained and refined over a period of years. Ultimately its about training at gyms with good learning environments for TS. If he's training boxing and Judo concurrently, I'd encourage him to prioritize Judo throws from the same side as his boxing lead, so he doesn't end up like me and learn to box orthodox and later learn Judo favoring right-side throws.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I agree with all of this bro. I was just suggesting TS prioritize Judo at this point only account of him being 27 and (from the sound of his posts) relatively inexperienced at both. Assuming he's like most folks I've trained with, his window of learning and ingraining proper ukemi is closing (but he can still do it if he's healthy). You can learn/improve boxing at any age but particularly for Judo, IME the younger you start the better, and your ceiling is lower with age.

Yes many of us train to be well-rounded but even that considered, I'd take Judo over boxing for self-defense. With or without gloves, achieving a one-punch KO is very difficult unless you're very skilled or very lucky. But a merely proficient Judoka will easily TD and control a lesser skilled opponent. And Judo is also more applicable in more situations. In a full blown fight, I'd still rather clinch and TD a brawler vs. engaging him in fucking fisticuffs. But if you're boxing someone on the street, you're in a fight. Judo can allow you to trip or sweep other guy onto the ground with control without ever throwing a punch and hopefully encouraging other guy not to either.

But all of that is still LARPing. I'd still go with Judo for the ukemi.

And this isn't "build an MMA fighter in 90 days." Proper technique is ingrained and refined over a period of years. Ultimately its about training at gyms with good learning environments for TS. If he's training boxing and Judo concurrently, I'd encourage him to prioritize Judo throws from the same side as his boxing lead, so he doesn't end up like me and learn to box orthodox and later learn Judo favoring right-side throws.

Good post brother. I agree with most elements here. In one's late twenties the window for judo is indeed closing.

The orthodox / righty point is SUPER interesting and would warrant another thread on its own. I think most people who do striking + judo/wrestling have this paradox as most people are right handed so striking means left foot in front but judo/wrestling means right foot in front. Interestingly, because of my striking background and despite being a righty, I have a kenkayotsu tendency (with my left foot in front) and my uchi mata entry with left leg lifting is SUPER effective, even if I can t pull through usually. Also, I have a decent 2 on 1 / arm drag going to my left and I often can land a good tani otoshi or bastard ura nage on my left side. However, the rest of my game (also in wrestling since I fuck around with that as well), is righty hip throws so stepping forward with my right leg and turning to my left.

Hope I got the sides right in my description.

 

[WDSTK]

I second the judo twice and boxing once assuming you can also train at home. On the boxing day, you would do plenty of sparring. I think Judo training is best in a class with partner, a little more so than boxing. I think I get more out of training in boxing at home (sparring at the gym one day a week) rather than Judo which I like better in a classroom setting. I need a lot of instruction and repetition to get the Judo moves right and remembered. With boxing, easier to understand, remember and execute. Anyway, fill in any gaps you can in your classroom schedule by training at home. My instructor prescribes me a workout routine for karate, boxing and judo. I get with him sometime to observe me how I train by myself. Also since I am 65, I agree with previous posters that boxing is much easier on a old dude than Judo. When I workout now, I much prefer a boxing session.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Good post brother. I agree with most elements here. In one's late twenties the window for judo is indeed closing.

The orthodox / righty point is SUPER interesting and would warrant another thread on its own. I think most people who do striking + judo/wrestling have this paradox as most people are right handed so striking means left foot in front but judo/wrestling means right foot in front. Interestingly, because of my striking background and despite being a righty, I have a kenkayotsu tendency (with my left foot in front) and my uchi mata entry with left leg lifting is SUPER effective, even if I can t pull through usually. Also, I have a decent 2 on 1 / arm drag going to my left and I often can land a good tani otoshi or bastard ura nage on my left side. However, the rest of my game (also in wrestling since I fuck around with that as well), is righty hip throws so stepping forward with my right leg and turning to my left.

Hope I got the sides right in my description.

If you're right handed but like kenkayotsu grips with left leg in front, left leg uchi mata must work pretty great for you. I was thinking in terms of standing in an orthodox boxing stance with your opponent also standing orthodox, you're in great position for left lead o soto gari. But I suppose it depends on what stance your opponent takes and indeed if he allows you to take kenkayotsu grips vs. mirroring you for aiyotsu in gi.

I started wrestling before Judo (but had already started boxing orthodox), and the biggest driver for throws was guys taking a collar tie on me with their right hand. So being right handed myself, I'd do the same tie up on them. And from there I'd go for duck unders and arm drags on their right arm and also head and arm throw/koshi guruma also from the right side. And the collar tie in wrestling being pretty analogous to aiyotsu grips in Judo, I starting doing that also with right hand on the lapel, also driven by other guy almost always taking the same grips on me.

But it is an interesting question and one I've thought about a lot. With all the different stances I've gotten used to taking in different rulesets, going for TDs from the feet, I'm now used to standing square to my opponent in more of a defensive stance, while alternately circling right or left. If I circle left, it feels like stepping into an orthodox jab and I go for a high head inside single leg, which is still pretty much the only left side TD I have any success with. If I circle right, I'm going for right side Judo throws, hane goshi, de ashi harai, koshi guruma, tani otoshi, tai otoshi, o uchi gari, ko uchi gake. But having tried and failed miserably at using more left-side Judo throws against resisting opponents, it's an aspect of my TD game that needs a lot of work.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

I see many on here saying that the window is closing at late 20s to be competent in Judo

I disagree. I started at 37 and I'm doing very well for my age. I started with 3x per week and now train twice and I'm learning fast

Now of course I'm more a hobbyist and only compete sometimes, but put me up against a beginner in Judo and I'm much more advanced

I may lack the pure technique of someone much younger, but I'm big and athletic and it has helped

I was a boxer and kickboxer in my youth and 20s. Starting martial art when younger is obviously always beneficial, but you can start Judo later and still obtain a decent level. One of my coaches is a 49 year old 3rd Dan who started aged 31 and he is absolutely lethal.

I also have a guy in our Dojo who quit Judo for work reasons 20 years ago as a brown belt and started back last year aged 53. He has his 100 points now and will be doing his theory for Shodan

If you look after your body, strength train and do your stretching? Then you can still train hard

Judo is obviously much more intense than BJJ, so it's not recommended to train every day like you are going to the Olympics if older

However, 2 or 3 times per week is definitely doable imo

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

If you're right handed but like kenkayotsu grips with left leg in front, left leg uchi mata must work pretty great for you. I was thinking in terms of standing in an orthodox boxing stance with your opponent also standing orthodox, you're in great position for left lead o soto gari. But I suppose it depends on what stance your opponent takes and indeed if he allows you to take kenkayotsu grips vs. mirroring you for aiyotsu in gi.

I started wrestling before Judo (but had already started boxing orthodox), and the biggest driver for throws was guys taking a collar tie on me with their right hand. So being right handed myself, I'd do the same tie up on them. And from there I'd go for duck unders and arm drags on their right arm and also head and arm throw/koshi guruma also from the right side. And the collar tie in wrestling being pretty analogous to aiyotsu grips in Judo, I starting doing that also with right hand on the lapel, also driven by other guy almost always taking the same grips on me.

But it is an interesting question and one I've thought about a lot. With all the different stances I've gotten used to taking in different rulesets, going for TDs from the feet, I'm now used to standing square to my opponent in more of a defensive stance, while alternately circling right or left. If I circle left, it feels like stepping into an orthodox jab and I go for a high head inside single leg, which is still pretty much the only left side TD I have any success with. If I circle right, I'm going for right side Judo throws, hane goshi, de ashi harai, koshi guruma, tani otoshi, tai otoshi, o uchi gari, ko uchi gake. But having tried and failed miserably at using more left-side Judo throws against resisting opponents, it's an aspect of my TD game that needs a lot of work.

POtentially dumb questions but for clarity' sake, when you say:
- " kenkayitsu vs MIRRORING you in ayotsu" by mirroring you mean right leg in front vs right leg in front? Because to me mirroring implies left leg in front vs right leg in front.

- "koshi guruma FROM the right side" you mean turning to your left?
- "driven by other guy taking SAME grip as me" you mean ayotsu with your right hand on uke s left lapel and uke s right hand on your left lapel?

 

[ChickenBrother]

POtentially dumb questions but for clarity' sake, when you say:
- " kenkayitsu vs MIRRORING you in ayotsu" by mirroring you mean right leg in front vs right leg in front? Because to me mirroring implies left leg in front vs right leg in front.

- "koshi guruma FROM the right side" you mean turning to your left?
- "driven by other guy taking SAME grip as me" you mean ayotsu with your right hand on uke s left lapel and uke s right hand on your left lapel?

Yup, my bad I should have said MATCHING you in aiyotsu with their right hand gripping your left lapel and your right hand gripping their left lapel. And yes I do koshi guruma and other throws FROM the right side, stepping in with my right foot and turning to my left. One consideration here is that RIGHT side Judo throws initiated with right foot forward and right hand gripping uke's left lapel still involve TURNING to your left to complete the throw and looking left i.e. checking your watch as you pull up uke's sleeve, which is similar to the movement from an orthodox boxing stance where you're also looking over your left shoulder.

And after years and years of drilling punches from an orthodox stance and Judo throws from a right side stance, my body is more accustomed to turning to my left and I have much better ROM in both my neck and lower back turning in that direction vs. to the right. I probably have some spine curvature imbalances because as I've started to do more stretching as I've aged, I'm trying to correct it by stretching more to my right side and can always crack my back going that way vs. turning to left. Probably the only way I'm going to equalize it will be to box southpaw for a few years and go for exclusively left side Judo throws so my back can be equally fucked up in both directions lol.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I see many on here saying that the window is closing at late 20s to be competent in Judo

I disagree. I started at 37 and I'm doing very well for my age. I started with 3x per week and now train twice and I'm learning fast

Now of course I'm more a hobbyist and only compete sometimes, but put me up against a beginner in Judo and I'm much more advanced

I may lack the pure technique of someone much younger, but I'm big and athletic and it has helped

I was a boxer and kickboxer in my youth and 20s. Starting martial art when younger is obviously always beneficial, but you can start Judo later and still obtain a decent level. One of my coaches is a 49 year old 3rd Dan who started aged 31 and he is absolutely lethal.

I also have a guy in our Dojo who quit Judo for work reasons 20 years ago as a brown belt and started back last year aged 53. He has his 100 points now and will be doing his theory for Shodan

If you look after your body, strength train and do your stretching? Then you can still train hard

Judo is obviously much more intense than BJJ, so it's not recommended to train every day like you are going to the Olympics if older

However, 2 or 3 times per week is definitely doable imo

All great points and I agree. I don't believe there's a max age you can start Judo, but I was just observing that MOST guys I train BJJ with are reluctant to go full speed TDs after around mid 30's, even if they're in otherwise great shape. Our gym even used to offer a Judo class and it was just me and one other BJJ guy that showed up. It was mostly boxers and kickboxers who wanted to learn TDs and TD defense to round out their game, but 95% of the BJJ guys were like nah, I'm good.

Out of curiosity, how long did it take the brown belt to get back on track and test for shodan and how many classes per week has he been doing? I'm in the same boat myself and have been either nikkyu or ikkyu (I think I had the points for ikkyu but not sure if my club ever submitted the paperwork) since mid 90's which is the last time I competed under IJF. I guess I'd have to pay back dues for 28 years time in grade at brown + whatever requirements the new club wants to see in order to test for shodan?