Judo throws for bjj v2.0

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Kbits

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Posted this on Reddit a week or so; thought it might be of interest here too -

There's been some interest in recent weeks wrt judo throws etc. As broken down old judoka, I wanted to share my perspective on judo for bjj.

I began teaching judo in a bjj club around 2013, after a house move (the place was right on my doorstep). I posted the first iteration of what and why I [taught in this thread 3 and a bit years ago]

I recently had some free time and put together a document for the guys with a list of throws, video links, basic class structure etc. You can find that [HERE](https://www.dropbox.com/s/ttalzl13lhprxip/judo for bjj planner.pdf?dl=0) (<---PDF document on dropbox).

Some extra comments

* I initially began with the idea of teaching "judo for bjj". In hindsight, what I've actually done is create a "minimum effective dose of judo" that still contains all the "judo elements" (I think), whilst selecting for throws that work in gi or no gi.

* If you have no interest in maintaining that nucleus, I would drop ogoshi and tsuri goshi (these are solid throws but also 'teaching throws', which is why they are included) - you could in fact drop the 'hip' category all together and *just concentrate on the yellow highlighted throws in the other columns* (7 or 8 throws, depending on if you like fireman's or not. I do, because it's a scalable throw - meaning I can kill you with it or roll you down nice and soft)

* *Judo is not throws.* **Judo is MOVEMENT and gripping.** In a way, a list of throws is irrelevant but seeing that question keeps coming up, this is one suggested list. To see what I mean about gripping and movement, watch this recently uploaded video of [Olympic Gold Medalist Jeon]

In terms of training: the things I like to focus on are

* Throws to completion. A crash mat helps when people's ukemi is not good / no sprung floors. Actually, a crashmat helps when reps are high (>100).

* Throws to completion WHILE moving (fwd/back/circling/diagonals). Throws to completion are GOOD...throws to completion WHILE MOVING is BETTER

* Causing that movement via gripping and other strategies (see document and suggested r/judo threads therein).

Top four things I want students to get good at

* Generating movement via footwork (taisabaki) and grip fighting.

* Ukemi (goes without saying: this is not hard to develop)

* Mechanically correct throws

* Keeping their partners safe at all times


Things I wish I had

* Sprung floors. One day...
* More time. 1hr a session is criminal for developing judo...just criminal. I have to create mesocycles (4 weeks) just so I can get through everything I need to....and even then, not all the same students come to all the same classes, so it's an incomplete transmission of information. I'm barely able to get things done as is and I know I'm cutting corners but I have to work with what I have.

* 70 minutes would be better...90-120 would ideal (FWIW, before switching to mostly BJJ, I use to train 2.5hrs x 3 week of judo. This is a good training regimen for a recreational player IMHO). IOW, if you're going to "train judo" for 15 minutes twice a week...forget it.

* More students.
* Working knees.


I hope the info is of some benefit. If there are questions, I'm happy to try to answer them.

PS: like I said, this is the minimum effective dose of judo for gi and no gi, useful in a bjj context...which may or may not be your thing. I have zero issues pulling guard in BJJ; collar drags, guard pulls etc are perfectly valid.


EDIT: The Jeon video got pulled down for copyright, I guess. I bet it's over here - they use to have a free 14 day trial. It's worth it - this is the MG in Action of Judo (maybe even better)


[http://www.superstarjudo.com/](http://www.superstarjudo.com/)
 
Excellent man, thanks for posting!

Love this kind of pedantic attention to detail!
 
You might be old and broke, Kbits. But, you're still beautiful.
 
This is great, any chance of your reasoning behind why you have selected these particular throws? Just to try to further my understanding.

Thanks
 
Mr Rick said:
This is great, any chance of your reasoning behind why you have selected these particular throws? Just to try to further my understanding.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Sure thing. My rationale is pretty much as per v1.0. just with a touch of streamlining

TL;DR
  • Work in gi and no gi (barring maybe one or two throws)
  • Don't put you in a bad position when transitioning.
  • 1 throw (eg: tsuri goshi) that lays the foundations for multiple throws (eg: harai goshi, uchimata etc).
  • 6 key throwing principles (sacrifice throws, forward turning rollers, one legged fwd rollers, backward drivers, pick ups, leg grabs)
My other concern was safety:

Theoretically, judo was designed so that the more difficult / dangerous throws were taught later on. It's debatable where or not this is true, because you can easily fuck someone up with a 'basic throw'. Eg: For known ways (and scenarios) that commonly wreck knees, check out this article from British Journal of Sports Med

http://sci-hub.tw/http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bjsm.2008.051425

(notice the most common ways to tear an ACL - osotogari, a basic throw)

I've had a working theory for some years now (which seems to coincide with what Geesink wrote) that the official organisation of throws (the Gokyo) is sub-optimal for skill development AND safety. The revised idea (from a safety perspective) would be [in descending order of safety]

  • Backwards throws: both legs on the ground but arms working (like a double leg)

  • Forwards throws: both legs on the ground but arms working (like an ogoshi)

  • Foot sweeps (these take a long time to get good at; start early)

  • Backwards throws: one leg on ground, second leg work (like osoto)

  • Forwards throws: ditto (like uchimata)

  • Sacrifice throws

  • Combos
As for how to teach / spar safely, two ideas

Teaching good randori

https://player.fm/series/the-strenu...ly-bodycomb-on-sambo-leglocks-and-competition(<---around 32:00 in)

* For those not familiar with the term, French Randori (Yaku Soku Geiko) is "agreed practice": it looks like this -

 
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Speaking of Jeon do you think the twisting Korean Seoi Nage with or without the knee drop is worth exploring for BJJ?

I've drilled it a little and it seems the dropping version in particular might work well but i'm wondering if there is a reason you never see it in BJJ. I end up in situations i can easily get the grips for it a lot but am not sure if the finishing position with your hands a little stuck would be all that useful compared to most other throws. I'm also far weaker throwing turning clockwise so would need to set it up versus lefties to use my best side and avoid easy back-takes unless i put a lot of time in.

Just curious if you've taught it to your class, thought about it or your general thoughts on it for BJJ?
 
I'm not a fan of drop knee seoinage, no. You do see it (a lot) in bjj but drop knee (as it's typically done: straight down onto kneecaps) is not something I like to do. Bad for knees, bad for getting countered.



And to be honest with you - I think I still maintain a touch of judo snobbery about drop knee seoi being lazy / cheap :)

That's not to say it doesn't work - it's just something I'm not a fan of, so I don't teach it. Steve Scott has a good drop seoi entry, if that's your jam



There is a type of drop seoiotoshi that lands you on the outside of your thighs (not straight down onto kneecaps) that is marginally better I think. Kind of like a wrestling hip toss.

Jeon has a couple of ways he does his seoi: one of them (where he goes down on one shin and the other leg remains bent) seems better to me than most. Obviously guys like Jeon, Koga and Tsunoda are experts in that sort of technique.



If you're talking about standing seoi: I teach it forwards and then what happens if they try to circle one way (they load themselves up; quarter turn and throw) or the other way (walk into seoitoshi/taiotoshi)
 
Sorry Kbits i should have been a lot clearer that Jeon made me think of the Korean style of reverse seoi rather than his own techniques!!! I love that kind of one knee Tai Otoshi / Seotoshi you're talking about at the end though. I originally saw Karen Briggs do it on an old Fighting Films dvd and it seemed to click better than any version of Seoi Nage for me :)

This was actually the specific throw i meant to pick your brains on:

 
Sounds interesting though I didn´t get the thing about dropping koshi waza.

Totally agree on drop seoi nage, if you´re not much into competition is just taking damage for free.
 
Daz2300 said:
Sorry Kbits i should have been a lot clearer that Jeon made me think of the Korean style of reverse seoi rather than his own techniques
Click to expand...

Oooooh - you mean the reverse seoi! Yeah - I don't really know how to do that :) I should probably learn it one day (it's not hard, just needs more practice) but have been avoiding it because to my mind it breaks the "useful in gi and no gi" rule. The closest no gi variant (shihonage) seems low % to me.

Reverse seoi is like the berimbolo of judo. Some people can do it (and do it well) but it's a bit too specialised for my tastes.

Tbh, I've not dabbled much with the trendy modern stuff (like the ejector seat, front uchimatas, reverse seoi, versions of the laats kata gurumas). I did like / practice the wrist seoinage for a while (look at the Steve Scott video above: a lot like that except you land on the balls of your feet and use your other forearm on their wrist to throw them in the direction you end up facing) but I had a training partner break my leg and that was the end of power and explosivity for me.
 
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Kbits said:
Oooooh - you mean the reverse seoi! Yeah - I don't really know how to do that :) I should probably learn it one day (it's not hard, just needs more practice) but have been avoiding it because to my mind it breaks the "useful in gi and no gi" rule. The closest no gi variant (shihonage) seems low % to me.

Reverse seoi is like the berimbolo of judo. Some people can do it (and do it well) but it's a bit too specialised for my tastes.

Tbh, I've not dabbled much with the trendy modern stuff (like the ejector seat, front uchimatas, reverse seoi, versions of the laats kata gurumas). I did like / practice the wrist seoinage for a while (look at the Steve Scott video above: a lot like that except you land on the balls of your feet and use your other forearm on their wrist to throw them in the direction you end up facing) but I had a training partner break my leg and that was the end of power and explosivity for me.
Click to expand...
No worries, thanks for taking the time to reply anyway much appreciated!

I'm interested in it because i see it and think in theory it would work great in BJJ competition given the generally poor grip fighting and bent stances. It looks like a throw that would scare the crap out of people not comfortable with ukemi and give you a chance to establish great positions or subs immediately :-D

I'm a bit confused on Wrist Seoinage, so like the forearm-to-forearm one but lower on the arm and dropping to your knees??
 
No; hard to describe.

  • We face each other in flat stances
  • I take sausage grip on your right sleeve with my left hand, tensioning the suit and opening you up
  • I jump in and rotate, with the goal that I land on the balls of my feet, in a low squat, 270 degrees from my initial position
  • As I do that, my other hand / forearm comes to your wrist
  • You end up being wrapped around me and thrown to your left front corner
 
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