Karate in the Olympics?

[smart.feller]

I'd rather see sanshou than karate, using the proposed karate scoring above, but 4 points given for a clean throw.

 

[PivotPunch]

I say it as a TKD guy but fuck points karate. WTF TKD like it or not is at least unique since it is kinda the kicking equivalent to boxing and specialized. But wtf is points karate for? or even light conctact?
it's basically shitty MT (rule wise not the arts themselves) so if anything introduce K-1 rules or MT into the olympics.

I disagree that Mt is too brutla how is it any more brutal than boxing? If it's a PR thing then just make it K-1 rules

Even Sanshou makes no sense it is basically a mixture of K-1 and MT rules but if you intrudce kickboxing then use the real thing or MT both sports are bigger than Sanshou

 

[AshiharaFan]

I disagree that Mt is too brutla how is it any more brutal than boxing? If it's a PR thing then just make it K-1 rules

Yes, I said MT NOT kickboxing or K-1 rules. And how is MT too brutal? There's a reason that K-1 and Shidokan kickboxing don't allow elbows. Knees are bad enough, add those vicious elbows and you may see a lot of this in the Olympics:

This is NOT the kind of brutality and image the IOC want.

 

[PivotPunch]

Yes, I said MT NOT kickboxing or K-1 rules. And how is MT too brutal? There's a reason that K-1 and Shidokan kickboxing don't allow elbows. Knees are bad enough, add those vicious elbows and you may see a lot of this in the Olympics:

This is NOT the kind of brutality and image the IOC want.

didn't they do away with elbows in K-1 for the same reasons they reduced the clinchfighting over time: to not make it MT? I don#t think they did it for image reasosn.

also they could use elbow pads which would reduce the cuts by a lot and the pics you posted werent the results from only elbows but elbows AND punches with thin gloves.

How many MT fighters do you see with faces like that?

It's also because Joana is a really good striker and in MMA it happens that good strikers fight guys way below their level you wouldn#t see such one sided fight in olympic MT

The IOC cares about money they don't give a fuck about the faces of fighters they give a fuck that most people are idiots and consider it to be more violent than stuff like boxing regardless of whether it really is.

but even that isn't an issue if enough people are interested in watching it they took wrestling out of the olympics ffs they only care about cash

 

[Rod1]

didn't they do away with elbows in K-1 for the same reasons they reduced the clinchfighting over time: to not make it MT? I don#t think they did it for image reasosn.

also they could use elbow pads which would reduce the cuts by a lot and the pics you posted werent the results from only elbows but elbows AND punches with thin gloves.

How many MT fighters do you see with faces like that?

It's also because Joana is a really good striker and in MMA it happens that good strikers fight guys way below their level you wouldn#t see such one sided fight in olympic MT

The IOC cares about money they don't give a fuck about the faces of fighters they give a fuck that most people are idiots and consider it to be more violent than stuff like boxing regardless of whether it really is.

but even that isn't an issue if enough people are interested in watching it they took wrestling out of the olympics ffs they only care about cash

Amateur sports are not 2 fights a year events, they are several fights per event, of course it needs to be watered down so you can actually compete all year round.

 

[Rod1]

Karate is already part of all major continental games and the world games.

Its weird how it has not made the jump into an olympic sport yet

 

[PivotPunch]

Amateur sports are not 2 fights a year events, they are several fights per event, of course it needs to be watered down so you can actually compete all year round.

Only elite boxers can afford to only fight twice a year and how is amateur boxing that different from pro boxing aside from fewer rounds?


3x3 Mt rules with maybe just maybe elbow pads and everything would be fine. And in Thailand fighters fight every few weeks as well and that over 5 rounds without potential elbow pads

 

[AshiharaFan]

didn't they do away with elbows in K-1 for the same reasons they reduced the clinchfighting over time: to not make it MT? I don#t think they did it for image reasosn.

Partly correct. On the one hand Kazuyoshi Ishii wanted to make the K-1 fights to NOT be muay Thai fights as you said. In addition to that reason is that there were other stand up fighters (karate, kickboxing, tkd) who were not as familiar with dealing with elbows on a normal basis in their respective combat sports as Nak Muay so the elbow tactics and clinch would give the Nak Muay a (seemingly) unfair advantage. Other than that I do agree with you (yes, you are correct is what I'm saying) that Mr. Ishii's MAIN REASON for taking away the elbows and limiting the clinch was to not make K-1 muay Thai matches.

BUT, the IOC would ALSO not allow elbows but not for the same reasons as Ishii and K-1. They are too brutal compared to getting punched in the head with boxing gloves and while wearing head gear. The IOC has standards by which combat sports rules must be measured and I can guarantee you that the IOC would get plenty of complaints and suggestions to take out MT if it ever became an Olympic sport.

Yes, I have seen some Jessica Penne looking faces in muay Thai fights and for the same reasons you already listed: elbows in addition to knees and punches and blows made by fighters who are super accurate and the occasional mismatches.

Now do you see such faces on a normal basis in MT fights? My answer is no, you do not. The reason is because (unlike that JJ vs Penne fight) the refs and the doctors would not allow fighters to take that over excessive punishment to their faces when a fight is that one sided. I think Marc Goddard should have stopped that fight much sooner than he actually did.

 

[Combat Squirrel]

Yes.

Spoiler

[YT]iUP5KWtOrg8[/YT]

I'm quite well versed in martial arts and the only thing I got in this fight is that you get a point for shooting a takedown and playing bongo on your opponent's helmet.

 

[Azam]

If they do point fighting the JKA shotokan way - I'll definitely be a watcher!


Yes I think it's a no brainer - Karate is among the most practiced/popular martial art in the world despite the rise of other styles. I think the top 3 would most likely be Tkd, Karate & Boxing in no particular order.

It seems karate may get there eventually - whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen. I just hope karate if it does get in - doesn't go the way of Judo.

Think it would be great financially for karate - but you could also do great financially for karate by simply unifying bodies & pooling resources and holding one unified world tournament instead of multiple one's.

I know with knockdown at the 95' world openweight tournament the attendance was apparently in the >20k region. That's just knockdown - I imagine Karate would probably pool bigger audiences/numbers if it was just less political/more unified.

 

[Rod1]

Only elite boxers can afford to only fight twice a year and how is amateur boxing that different from pro boxing aside from fewer rounds?

Besides fewer rounds, it has 12 oz gloves, headgear and clear point-scoring system.

 

[Rod1]

And again, karate is already part of all continental games, its going to get into the olympics, its ridiculous not to, you have olympic level karate in all major continents already, it sounds idiotic to not have them match against each other

 

[AshiharaFan]

Spoiler

[YT]iUP5KWtOrg8[/YT]

I'm quite well versed in martial arts and the only thing I got in this fight is that you get a point for shooting a takedown and playing bongo on your opponent's helmet.

You get the BIG POINTS from getting a knockdown. A knockdown from a kick is 100 points and I don't remember if it's 20 or 10 points for a knockdown from a punch.

The "bongo" moves on the ground is for safety reasons which I actually have no problem with. Fewer injuries mean fighters very rarely are forced to bow out of a tournament. Neither are they absorbing unnecessary head trauma on the ground which helps to preserve the overall shelf life of the tournament fighters.

 

[AshiharaFan]

If they do point fighting the JKA shotokan way - I'll definitely be a watcher!

Yes I think it's a no brainer - Karate is among the most practiced/popular martial art in the world despite the rise of other styles. I think the top 3 would most likely be Tkd, Karate & Boxing in no particular order.

I think the hundred's of styles and (most importantly) the absolute non cooperation and lack of mutual compromise for the sake of inclusion in the Olympics is one of the top 3 reasons I will bet my life savings karate will never become an Olympic sport.

TKD (as horrendous as it is as a sport) is much more uniform and united when it comes to being a sport. Their unity would really show it's strength when it comes to preventing karate from being included in the OG.

I am all but certain that point karate will never, ever be included in the Olympic Games.

 

[Jukai]

If they do point fighting the JKA shotokan way - I'll definitely be a watcher!


Yes I think it's a no brainer - Karate is among the most practiced/popular martial art in the world despite the rise of other styles. I think the top 3 would most likely be Tkd, Karate & Boxing in no particular order.

It seems karate may get there eventually - whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen. I just hope karate if it does get in - doesn't go the way of Judo.

Think it would be great financially for karate - but you could also do great financially for karate by simply unifying bodies & pooling resources and holding one unified world tournament instead of multiple one's.

I know with knockdown at the 95' world openweight tournament the attendance was apparently in the >20k region. That's just knockdown - I imagine Karate would probably pool bigger audiences/numbers if it was just less political/more unified.

As a guy who competed nationally in both JKA and USNKF events, I can say this: JKA tournaments make you an infinitely better martial artist. They are also boring to watch, and unfun to compete in. One mistake and you are out of the tournament. That's awful.

The WKF is certainly more of a watered down, jumping bean contest... but it is fun, it is flashy, and it is significantly more spectator friendly. It attracts the athletes.

That being said, I doubt either will get into the Olympics. As others have said, it's just too identical to Taekwondo.

 

[Jukai]

Besides fewer rounds, it has 12 oz gloves, headgear and clear point-scoring system.

Not anymore.

 

[PivotPunch]

Besides fewer rounds, it has 12 oz gloves, headgear and clear point-scoring system.

headgear is gone for experienced amateurs which obviously includes the Olympics, the scoring is back to 10 point scoring like in the pros for everyone and the gloves yes are one level more padded than in the pros so 12 oz for 154lbs guys and above but still "only" 10 oz for guys below WW.
And even with fewer rounds 3 rounds are still as long as most kickboxing fights

 

[Azam]

As a guy who competed nationally in both JKA and USNKF events, I can say this: JKA tournaments make you an infinitely better martial artist. They are also boring to watch, and unfun to compete in. One mistake and you are out of the tournament. That's awful.

The WKF is certainly more of a watered down, jumping bean contest... but it is fun, it is flashy, and it is significantly more spectator friendly. It attracts the athletes.

That being said, I doubt either will get into the Olympics. As others have said, it's just too identical to Taekwondo.

Yeah I can see why JKA might not be as aesthetically pleasing as WKF - but that said in all honesty I don't find it boring, in fact I prefer watching JKA to WKF.

I agree - JKA competition I think makes you infinitely better. I see great technical karate in JKA competitions that I don't see in any other point fighting format and its all controlled calculated technical karate at its finest imho. I like the way it also looks and feels less of a sport than its WKF counterpart.

I'd love to see a full contact version of JKA point fighting competition where you don't pull punches - it would make it even better imho.

 

[Combat Squirrel]

You get the BIG POINTS from getting a knockdown. A knockdown from a kick is 100 points and I don't remember if it's 20 or 10 points for a knockdown from a punch.

The "bongo" moves on the ground is for safety reasons which I actually have no problem with. Fewer injuries mean fighters very rarely are forced to bow out of a tournament. Neither are they absorbing unnecessary head trauma on the ground which helps to preserve the overall shelf life of the tournament fighters.

This is repeating the same mistakes made in all the other sportified TMAs:


1) Thinking the casuals want to see a lot of high kicks

Yes, the casuals will cheer a high kick in MMA or KB, but a lot of its appeal is in its scarcity, not in the fact that it was done with the leg. If you take the "exciting" element and force it to happen every few seconds, it's no longer exciting. Compare the crowd reaction after a score in soccer and basketball.

2) Thinking the casuals want to see non-violent fighting

They want it to look civilized, i.e. clearly distinguishable from an "uncivilized" real fight. This is different from looking non-violent. Remember Mayweather-Pacquiao? How much did the casuals like that safety fight? Remember Gatti-Ward?

3) Not understanding the value of simplicity

All internationally popular sports like soccer and tennis are relatively easy to understand. A casual may not get the technical details, but a complete noob could watch theses sports for the first time and figure out 95% of the action within minutes. Because of (1) and (2), sport TMAs tend to have excessively complicated rules and the people behind it don't see the problem.

 

[shinkyoku]

kudo follows the 4 point level system of judo.
Ippon=instant win=KO, tapout, submission or referee stoppage.
wazari= short term knockdown
yukou=flash knockdowns
Kohka (sp?) simulated G&P, throws without followups etc etc.Or a knockdown with no damage (basically just making him lose balance)

no matter how many kohka you get, one yokou trumps it. no matter how many yukou you get, one wazari trumps it. no matter how many wazari you get, well a ippon is a instant win. KOs usually are.
you posted a boring fight where nothing happened except two of the least impressive and lowest points available under the rules. But since nothing interesting happened, it was enough.
you could just as well have posted this vid and said that a ko is a win
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN12eq0l93s

While I accept you point 3: not understanding the importance of simplicity (the 4 level point system works in judo but it is not exactly intuitive -but then again try explaining modern wrestling rules to a outsider), your point 1 and 2 are not applicable on kudo. They are applicable on point karate, but your reply to ashiharafan when he talks about kudo.