Kimura with monkey grip (no thumb) - but why?

[Bathwater]

I ocassionally use a C-grip for trapping but pretty much always switch to a monkey grip for finishing. I find that my palm stays flatter against my opponent's wrist that way and my own wrist (which is the weakest joint in the chain) hinges less.

Maybe I just have really gimpy wrists, though.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

I see it this way : thumbs, more control, less power. No thumb, more power,less control.

So i usualy start with the thumb and finish without.

 

[Spoken]

protects your thumb and gives you more wrist control.

 

[Budo Jake]

I'm glad to see this thread as I always questioned the "always use monkey grip for kimuras" instruction that I received early.

Like others have stated, I too felt more comfortable with a C grip in some kimura situations.

I watched some video and pix of Kimura to see his grip and I never saw the monkey grip. So this got me wondering, is the monkey grip a Brazilian innovation?

The other day I cornered Kayron Gracie on the topic and he went through a number of positions telling me which ones a monkey grip was better and which one a C grip was better. It was brief instruction and I'm not completely clear on it though.

 

[Macungah]

I asked a few people, and here are two reasons.
1. I've been told that it's because the power of the kimura should come from your palm rather than your finger's strength and grip. It increases the rigidity of the figure four.
2. Also, put your hand flat in front of you (like a karate chop). That's a monkey grip. Now imagine you're holding a mug. That's like a grip w/thumb. The concavity of your hand increases. There's about an inch extra that you'll have to push their wrist in order to finish the kimura.

 

[P0rkchop]

I'm glad to see this thread as I always questioned the "always use monkey grip for kimuras" instruction that I received early.

Like others have stated, I too felt more comfortable with a C grip in some kimura situations.

I watched some video and pix of Kimura to see his grip and I never saw the monkey grip. So this got me wondering, is the monkey grip a Brazilian innovation?

The other day I cornered Kayron Gracie on the topic and he went through a number of positions telling me which ones a monkey grip was better and which one a C grip was better. It was brief instruction and I'm not completely clear on it though.

I was watching a video with Renzo Gracie and he said it about the thumb so I googled lol and this came up

 

[mrpopenfresh]

Try it out. Come back with a story to tell when you hyperextended both of them.

 

[blfdgrappler]

When it comes to making a grip, your thumb is actually the weakest part of the equation. For example, if someone standing directly in front of you grabs your wrist in a hostile fashion, the easiest way to break that person's grip is to work against the thumb (because it is weak). This type of hostile grab can usually be eliminated just by making a quick motion with your wrist, as if looking at your watch. When it comes to the kimura grip, an opposing thumb is generally disfavored (because it is the weak link in the grip), as opposed to getting all of your fingers aligned in the same direction where your grip is very strong. This grip also allows you to torque your opponent's wrist in toward you (like throttling a motorcycle), which makes the grip even more difficult to escape. As others have said, they are little nuances that make a big difference.

 

[Devils Haircut]

I use a thumbless (hook) grip for pulling, and a thumb (c grip) for pushing.
I always think of those old toy dispensing cranes that cost 50 cents to play and ALWAYS dropped the damned stuffed animal. Imagine if the toy was hanging from a hook and not a weaker gripping (as in thumb) mechanism. Thats how arms straighten out of americanas.

 

[Doughbelly]

I'm glad to see this thread as I always questioned the "always use monkey grip for kimuras" instruction that I received early.

Like others have stated, I too felt more comfortable with a C grip in some kimura situations.

I watched some video and pix of Kimura to see his grip and I never saw the monkey grip. So this got me wondering, is the monkey grip a Brazilian innovation?

No. The reason for gripping without the thumbs with a further emphasis on the lower three fingers has been known to judo for a very long time. There are actually universities in Japan that specialize in what we'd call pistol gripping.

Could it have been reinvented by Brazilians? Possibly, maybe even probably. It's not all that hard to figure out on your own after a certain point when you start experimenting with different grips.

 

[An end for]

Ok, got to try it better and with more gas today and I have to say it's amazing. Just one thing that I'd like to note: as you start the submission, it really is easier to get a hold at the wrist with the thumb. Once you are close to getting the double wristlock itself, you can use the monkey hand to better success. I feel that my americanas are much, much safer and stronger by trying this, especially because I have small, girly hands. I recommend it, just don't throw the thumbed one in the trash, both are good and have their uses.

 

[Budo Jake]

No. The reason for gripping without the thumbs with a further emphasis on the lower three fingers has been known to judo for a very long time. There are actually universities in Japan that specialize in what we'd call pistol gripping.

Could it have been reinvented by Brazilians? Possibly, maybe even probably. It's not all that hard to figure out on your own after a certain point when you start experimenting with different grips.

Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[CauseImbetta]

Simple question...

any idea why?

Basically, most instances for kimura/Americana for me is when I'm on top (cross side or mount) or even bottom on my back and he is cross side. I use no thumb because I shoot my whole arm and body weight into stretching out opponents arm so I can get the other hand in for a good grip. Then slap on a solid Americana (my favorite) and crank it. I hit americanas more than kimuras. I hit kimuras mostly from north south position. No thumb definitely for more power.

Once you slap on the kimura grip (with no thumbs), you then tighten the grip by turning your wrists forward. You can't do that with thumbs.

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

Basically, most instances for kimura/Americana for me is when I'm on top (cross side or mount) or even bottom on my back and he is cross side. I use no thumb because I shoot my whole arm and body weight into stretching out opponents arm so I can get the other hand in for a good grip. Then slap on a solid Americana (my favorite) and crank it. I hit americanas more than kimuras. I hit kimuras mostly from north south position. No thumb definitely for more power.

Once you slap on the kimura grip (with no thumbs), you then tighten the grip by turning your wrists forward. You can't do that with thumbs.

He asked that question 12 years ago, which I thought was the last time someone did an americana.

 

[CauseImbetta]

He asked that question 12 years ago, which I thought was the last time someone did an americana.

Doesn't matter it's a timeless technique. Even i tap to it sometimes. Something tells me you don't do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

Doesn't matter it's a timeless technique. Even i tap to it sometimes. Something tells me you don't do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Not very well, but I do.

 

[CauseImbetta]

Not very well, but I do.

Then up your Kimura and Americana game.

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

Then up your Kimura and Americana game.

Leave my kimura out of this!

 

[CauseImbetta]

Leave my kimura out of this!

You just said you don't roll very well. It sounds like you are your own worst enemy. I just trying to help you man. Trust in the power of the Kimura.

Set it up from close guard, half guard, half guard top, cross side, north south, etc..etc... It will become your go-to move. It will become your best friend. In my gym when people get the Kimura it's over.

 

[JustTheTip]

Yeah, I think there are some pros. Mainly that with the thumb you will make a tighter grip that is harder to pull out of.

This point is crucial, if you don't have the arm pressed against the ground or have em locked up in the guard so they can't pull away, then you need the thumb.

I see it this way : thumbs, more control, less power. No thumb, more power,less control.

So i usualy start with the thumb and finish without.

I disagree. An important part of the "Monkey Grip" is to rotate your wrists. If you don't rotate your wrists, then the Thumb grip is easier to control. If you use the Monkey Grip and really rotate your wrists, then it is much harder for your opponent to straighten their arm.Or even begin to get leverage to move their arm. A strong kimura grip really immobilizes the arm.

With your grips, the more you use your fingers, the weaker they are. Your Kimura grip is strongest the more it is concentrated to your lower palms by your wrists. Like framing, you will be using more of your bone structure than your joints.

I showed this detail to my 115lb girlfriend(who has never trained any grappling) and was unable to straighten my arm from the standing Kimura position.