Lamsongkram - what is the view on him?

[Tayski]

A raja title means next to nothing if you win it at 160lbs.

I already did. Look at Manowan, Songkraw, Lamsongkram, Kaoklai, Yodpayak and others.

-Lamsongkram is who were talking about in this thread already when we said he lost to farangs about as much as he won.
-Manowan won more than he lost against farangs.
-Kaoklai mostly fought heavyweights and quite a lot of those were Kickboxing fights and not Muay Thai.
-Yodpayak lost to those farang mostly in the stadiums, not fighting internationally.

If those are your examples to counter argue us when we say that usually Thai fighters do well when fighting farangs internationally, then that's pretty poor to be honest.

And by the way, a Raja or Lumpinee title means more than most of the other titles out there even for that weight class, but if it means next to nothing and it's easy to get please feel free to get one and show us the pictures.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

-Yodpayak lost to those farang mostly in the stadiums, not fighting internationally.

These aren't stadium losses, but that isn't really the point. The point is that thais who have stadium titles can quite easily have a losing record against farangs, if the titles they are winning are at the higher weight classes. Those titles just don't mean much.

 

[Tayski]

These aren't stadium losses, but that isn't really the point. The point is that thais who have stadium titles can quite easily have a losing record against farangs, if the titles they are winning are at the higher weight classes. Those titles just don't mean much.

Except nobody said it's unheard of. But if you list up all the Thai fighters who fight internationally I'm pretty sure the bigger portion will have very positive W/L ratios vs farangs, hence why we said it's not the norm for a Thai fighter to lose so many fights to farangs especially by KO.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Except nobody said it's unheard of. But if you list up all the Thai fighters who fight internationally I'm pretty sure the bigger portion will have very positive W/L ratios vs farangs, hence why we said it's not the norm for a Thai fighter to lose so many fights to farangs especially by KO.

Let try and stick to the point. You seem to think that stadium fighters or title holders are all at least decent. I'm telling you they aren't. And just expecting someone to do well on the basis of being a stadium fighter or titlist is lazy. You have to look at the individual and the context.

I'm not denying stadium fighters do well when fighting abroad. But if you look at who they are, they typically were guys who were at least solid fighters in good divisions. Not guys like Kaoklai, Lam and Yodpayak. Those guys are basically so-so stadium fighters who have the status that they do in virtue of the weight they compete in. So it shouldn't really come as a big shock that Lamsongkram lost as many fights as he did. He wasn't that great a fighter to begin with.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

And by the way, a Raja or Lumpinee title means more than most of the other titles out there even for that weight class, but if it means next to nothing and it's easy to get please feel free to get one and show us the pictures.

No titles really mean much of anything once you get to those weight classes.

A title can mean nothing in the context of professional fighting without someone being able to just roll off the coach and win it.

 

[Kanka]

No titles really mean much of anything once you get to those weight classes.

A title can mean nothing in the context of professional fighting without someone being able to just roll off the coach and win it.

I agree but let's not act like there haven't been arbitrary lumpinee champions at the competitive weight classes.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

^^^^Not sure what the polemy is, tbh

- Me : hey I like the way this guy fights and he has a Raja belt but he has a shit record so what do you think ?
- All others : he is a bit meh / decent at best and nothing to write home about and his Raja belt was in a very shallow division which may explain his shit record.
- Me : OK.
- jtwarwagon : why do you guys think that all Stadium Thais are equal and that all Raja belts are the same achievement, etc.?
- Everyone: lolwut??

 

[Kanka]

^^^^Not sure what the polemy is, tbh

- Me : hey I like the way this guy fights and he has a Raja belt but he has a shit record so what do you think ?
- All others : he is a bit meh / decent at best and nothing to write home about and his Raja belt was in a very shallow division which may explain his shit record.
- Me : OK.
- jtwarwagon : why do you guys think that all Stadium Thais are equal and that all Raja belts are the same achievement, etc.?
- Everyone: lolwut??

I think he is just arguing against a rajadamnern title being a point of reference, since some guys mentioned his rajadamnern title. It's usually better to look at a fighters record and consistency than to look at how many titles they have to determine a fighter. Regardless of titles he got KO'd 5 times in 2002/2003. That is a pretty indicative.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I think he is just arguing against a rajadamnern title being a point of reference, since some guys mentioned his rajadamnern title. It's usually better to look at a fighters record and consistency than to look at how many titles they have to determine a fighter. Regardless of titles he got KO'd 5 times in 2002/2003. That is a pretty indicative.

I mentioned the Raja belt pretty early in the thread and I think that everybody mentioned that it was a "weak" Raja belt due to shallow division and I think that pretty much everyone was in agreement.

 

[Kanka]

Ok

I mentioned the Raja belt pretty early in the thread and I think that everybody mentioned that it was a "weak" Raja belt due to shallow division and I think that pretty much everyone was in agreement.

haven't read through each post carefully but you know it's Jtwarwagon you're dealing with...

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

^^^^Not sure what the polemy is, tbh

- Me : hey I like the way this guy fights and he has a Raja belt but he has a shit record so what do you think ?
- All others : he is a bit meh / decent at best and nothing to write home about and his Raja belt was in a very shallow division which may explain his shit record.
- Me : OK.
- jtwarwagon : why do you guys think that all Stadium Thais are equal and that all Raja belts are the same achievement, etc.?
- Everyone: lolwut??

The "problem" is that TJwagon is constantly fighting a fight against "people in this forum" who do this and that making big generalizations that make everyone else look dumb but in fact the people in this forum don't actually do what he claims they do and his supposedly groundbreaking revealing insight is something that everybody knows already.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I think he is just arguing against a rajadamnern title being a point of reference, since some guys mentioned his rajadamnern title. It's usually better to look at a fighters record and consistency than to look at how many titles they have to determine a fighter. Regardless of titles he got KO'd 5 times in 2002/2003. That is a pretty indicative.

Who's disagreeing with that? Litterally nobody is implying that titles all hold the same weight. JT just always has to sound superior even if it's a straw man arguement.

 

[Kanka]

Who's disagreeing with that? Litterally nobody is implying that titles all hold the same weight. JT just always has to sound superior even if it's a straw man arguement.

Maybe he interpreted it like that

 

[Tayski]

Let try and stick to the point. You seem to think that stadium fighters or title holders are all at least decent. I'm telling you they aren't. And just expecting someone to do well on the basis of being a stadium fighter or titlist is lazy. You have to look at the individual and the context.

I'm not denying stadium fighters do well when fighting abroad. But if you look at who they are, they typically were guys who were at least solid fighters in good divisions. Not guys like Kaoklai, Lam and Yodpayak. Those guys are basically so-so stadium fighters who have the status that they do in virtue of the weight they compete in. So it shouldn't really come as a big shock that Lamsongkram lost as many fights as he did. He wasn't that great a fighter to begin with.

You misinterpret people's words here and that's why you go into this debate.I'm not even disagreeing with you.

However if someone got a Raja title regardless of how competitive or non competitive the weight class is, this tends to indicate a minimum standard rather than let's say "fought at some village fairs in North Thailand".

My original post, before you decided to use it for another argument, literally said he was 2x a Raja champion so not a complete can of a MT fighter, but that he doesn't have a good record, got KO'd many times and lost a lot against farangs, which indicates he's clearly not the legend some people out there make him out to be.

The difference is you have 0 regards for someone who wins a Raja title, while for me I think it's better than "Lion Fight Champion" for instance, so still worth mentioning.

 

[Deleted member 363827]

He was at a lower level just like Kaoklai. They did not make enough money and had to resort to boxing. They were both banned from boxing in Japan because they were repeatedly brought in by Japanese promoters to get knocked out (like 5-6 times each) by Japanese boxing prospects. Kaoklai later found his niche in K1 freakshow fights while Lam just stopped cutting down to 147-154 pounds and instead fought farang at 160 pounds.