Long-term risk of developing carotid stenosis from chokes due to repeated microtrauma

[Zankou]

As far as I can tell, this is an eggshell skull problem, not an accumulation problem. The people who get these injuries tend to get them very fast. They just have some innately crap vascular structure in their neck.

 

[sb413197]

Maybe some schools stand up more, but even then I don't think guys are throwing people and slamming people during rolls that start standing.

Yep. BJJ injuries happen but the ones from standing grappling tend to be massively worse because of the impact, with a few rare exceptions. The only serious injury I've gotten in 9 years of BJJ was from standup sparring (dislocated elbow) - and while learning to fall can help, a quick youtube search will show that it isn't foolproof at all and even guys trained to fall from the time they learned to walk get serious injuries from it. Standup grappling is valuable to learn of course but is dangerous.

 

[sb413197]

i can hold my fat ass up by the fingertips of one hand on an outcropping the size of a sharpie. i budget to snap at least one tool on every job I do. i can rip the hide clean off of stuff with way thicker skin than we have.

i'm already trying really hard not to kill somebody when they try to tell me to kill them harder. a smaller or weaker person can try to use 100% of their physical effort to do something and still might not be able to general lethal or effective force.

meanwhile, especially when there's a significant size difference, i might be effective down in the 30% range, injure around 50%, and outright murder somebody after 60%. if i'm trying to go 25% and their tap threshold is 30, it takes a hell of a lot more control to only ramp it up to the point that they'll tap without hurting/injuring them.

we've gotta be careful with our training partners. people have died doing this. more people will die.

You sound like you have superhuman strength! I've rolled with strong guys but have never rolled with a hafthor bjornsson type dude, look forward to doing that some day

 

[Leify]

fuck people that make you crank stuff to get it. i become irate when people insist.

i can hold my fat ass up by the fingertips of one hand on an outcropping the size of a sharpie. i budget to snap at least one tool on every job I do. i can rip the hide clean off of stuff with way thicker skin than we have.

i'm already trying really hard not to kill somebody when they try to tell me to kill them harder. a smaller or weaker person can try to use 100% of their physical effort to do something and still might not be able to general lethal or effective force.

meanwhile, especially when there's a significant size difference, i might be effective down in the 30% range, injure around 50%, and outright murder somebody after 60%. if i'm trying to go 25% and their tap threshold is 30, it takes a hell of a lot more control to only ramp it up to the point that they'll tap without hurting/injuring them.

we've gotta be careful with our training partners. people have died doing this. more people will die.

gym wins and being better at my hobby aren't worth risking anyone's life, including my own.

i'm still trying to figure out how i feel about how I play after everything that's going down. i broke enough arms that i switched to chokes, then i started feeling really weird about chokes so i'd usually just get to a decent s-mount or kesagatame or something that let me use positional asphyxiation.

we're gonna get walloped by the second wave here so I've still got a few months outside of the gym to figure out how I feel about all of this, why i enjoy it, whether or not i still do, yeah.

sorry for the wall of text sherbros. lots of time to think and nobody talk to. thought vomit for myself. i guess i'll hit post though.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you really can't adjust your level of force up and down just a little at a time? I'm not talking weeb shit like "I'm only using 10% of my power, time to show you 25!", but it shouldn't be difficult to hit a low level of squeeze and then increase it little by little or hold it there.

Regarding the OP, if you view the vascular system as an organ, which it more or less is, it seems like you could mitigate the risk of this by training that organ, such as through heavy lifting and the resulting blood pressure changes during a lift.

 

[RJ Green]

i'd delete that horrible post if it hadn't been replied to already.

i'm pretty sure i've been manic for the past few days. i can't convey what i want to say and instead babble in tangents around the edges of the point i'm trying to make.

i wasn't trying to be like "rawr look at me." i have no self-esteem. i've accomplished nothing in my life. i'm not special. i'm not any stronger than most folks who climb, work trades, lift weights. plenty of other folks can do everything I just listed in a far more impressive fashion.

Leify's post is what I always try to do, drilling or rolling. It's obviously stupid to crank stuff during drilling. What I was talking about are the folks who insist on making you crank/put them out for chokes.

We're already toeing that line when we're performing those submissions, and people have died. Some with underlying conditions, some without.

So I guess, given the potential for how badly things can go, and how much that potential increases with size/strength, and what little data we do have that allows us to make a reasonable scientific inference as to the dangers inherent to chokes beyond the whole "if you do it long enough you die", then yeah.

i just don't know if i want to do any of this anymore. it's really hard to cope with that thought. the reasons all tend to snowball together and then i start feeling sorry for myself and hijack a sherdog thread like anybody needs to give a shit what i think.

it's nobody's fault but mine that the intention of my post got misconstrued. sorry if anybody got the impression i like being myself.