Lowest maintenance guard (gi)

[DatCutman]

Dear friends,

I come to you as a struggling teacher, and luckily it seems like f12 has a dozen regular posting black belts/instructors. I've stolen your ideas many times before, and now I would like to do it again.

I have a student who is just plain bad at guard play. Has a good top game, can pass, and in nogi will scramble on bottom into dogfight/wrestling situations. But if he has to play guard (in the gi, especially), it's just not there. He gets passed immediately. Admirably, he recently came to me, asking specifically to work on his guard so as to rectify this massive hole in his game.

Part of the problem is his hip mobility, and I've given him some stretches to work on that. He can't bring his knees to his chest (can get his knee maybe to paralell with his belly button?), so getting inverted can be tough, and re-guarding is tough. Bendy shit is out. He's also 5'7 with stubs for legs, and can't really close his guard around anyone either.

I started him on a regiment of collar/sleeve guard to get him used to the idea of fighting with his legs. It's been a while...and just nothing. He cannot for the life of him figure it out. I've shown him a lot of re-guarding techniques, guard pass prevention, sweeps, submissions, strategies, tactics, everything I can think of, but when he has to play guard, it just gets passed immediately before he can even attempt these things. It's, frankly, mind boggling. He's got the right grips, he's active in pulling, feet in the right places, but between his bad mobility and poor tactical decision making, he just can't keep guard long enough to get enough experience to know what he's doing. I also tried teaching him butterfly as a platform (thinking his wrestling skills would come into play), but he can't bring his knees up to fight off passes, and gets passed instantly. I also tried knee shield half guard, but it seems to require too much decision tree making maintenance to keep from getting passed (i.e., my knee has been pushed out of the prime zone for shielding, how I regain it) that he insta-fails. He just got promoted to purple, but the man can't maintain guard against white belts that know the torreanado pass. As a result, he's getting discouraged.

I'm considering a different tactic, of telling him to work in a guard that is so inherently difficult to pass in itself, it gives him time/experience just being in guard, such that he'll have a baseline of experience and confidence from which to work.

--TL;DR start here--

With that said, what guards require the lowest maintenance to keep from getting passed, even if they aren't the most dynamic, keeping in mind he has stub legs? I was thinking maybe a lasso spider, as if achieved, he only has to maintain his grip, and beware the relatively few counter grips that predicate a pass. I know he's physically able to shoot his hips up for subs, but I don't know about sweeps that require bringing his knees to his chest. Even so, I don't know what the hell else to do.

Additionally, maybe I've taken the wrong tactic in the previous guards; how do you teach someone with concrete hips and poor guard awareness how to not get passed from butterfly??

Thanks for the suggestions. The only thing worse than hitting a mental block in your own jiu jitsu game is having else someone hit a block that you can't help them through. Drives me insane.

 

[yetanother]

Maybe try the Leo Saggioro lapel single leg half guard.
Lasso spider will suck because it both actually hurts and noobs will just try throw their weight around till his hands hurt and it's defensive so he will have to rely on switching to other open guards he can't play.

 

[someoldguy]

lockdown? it may not work, what happens in his spider?
Tell him never be on the bottom.

 

[someoldguy]

Maybe try the Leo Saggioro lapel single leg half guard.
Lasso spider will suck because it both actually hurts and noobs will just try throw their weight around till his hands hurt and it's defensive so he will have to rely on switching to other open guards he can't play.

What he said. Although this might make hands hurt as well.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think you were on the right track with Z. There's no getting around learning basic maintenance, no guard maintains itself, but Z is often very hard for lower belts to deal with and you can often maintain it just by clamping your legs with a little hip shift to drive the top knee into the passer's hip. Plus if he can get through his head to control the far wrist and frame the face with other hand, that will give him a little time to think. It would also play well into his wrestling as he could just fight for an underhook and then go into the Leite series. If he is a good wrestler, just give him lots of ways to enter singles when the guy stands, that'll get him off his back and it's not a terrible tactic in general.

 

[Quebec Nick]

I think you were on the right track with Z. There's no getting around learning basic maintenance, no guard maintains itself, but Z is often very hard for lower belts to deal with and you can often maintain it just by clamping your legs with a little hip shift to drive the top knee into the passer's hip. Plus if he can get through his head to control the far wrist and frame the face with other hand, that will give him a little time to think. It would also play well into his wrestling as he could just fight for an underhook and then go into the Leite series. If he is a good wrestler, just give him lots of ways to enter singles when the guy stands, that'll get him off his back and it's not a terrible tactic in general.

My old man training partner is pretty much only using the Z guard and he's a pain to pass. He can't play most of the guards because he has no hip flexibility

In the Z guard he became a really good grip fighter and mix it up pretty well with lasso (when we try to weave pass him) and always control the sleeve and collar.

 

[Uchi Mata]

My old man training partner is pretty much only using the Z guard and he's a pain to pass. He can't play most of the guards because he has no hip flexibility

In the Z guard he became a really good grip fighter and mix it up pretty well with lasso (when we try to weave pass him) and always control the sleeve and collar.

I never liked Z much until I got turned on to how Craig Jones attacks the far leg with a half inversion, now it's one of my favorite positions without the gi alternating between classically fighting for an underhook to go into the Leite stuff, and attacking the far leg if that gets blocks. If you're really slick, you can add in all the G roll stuff too. It's very versatile.

 

[thugpoet]

I never liked Z much until I got turned on to how Craig Jones attacks the far leg with a half inversion, now it's one of my favorite positions without the gi alternating between classically fighting for an underhook to go into the Leite stuff, and attacking the far leg if that gets blocks. If you're really slick, you can add in all the G roll stuff too. It's very versatile.

I second this post

 

[ChainFlow]

Seconding/thirding Z guard, though that will also end up being RDLR to some degree so make sure he at least knows how to force them back down to Z guard or come up in a single from there.

 

[dimmyfinster]

I vote to go with no grip open guard retention because if you can do that you can do any guard.

You mention rethe torreada. Gui Mendes has a drill which is to have the partner torreada side to side ( this is the hip knee version, what Marcelo calls circle pass) side to side. Bottom person No grips, on back, open guard, one defense side to side.

The ideaidea is that at he same belt you shouldn't be able to pass with just this one pass side to side. It's just one pass one defense.

You can do that drill for almost any pass. Do those guard retention as warm up drills for the class, which is one ATOS affiliate did when I visited.

If he can each pass in isolation, he can stop most the white belts. White belts are not changing passes and going side to side effectively for thr most part

 

[yetanother]

A lot of white belts I have encountered try to pass by randomly exploding in a random direction or when the feel they are outmatched try to stay out of gripping range to test my patience till I got annoyed or bored.

 

[yetanother]

I vote to go with no grip open guard retention because if you can do that you can do any guard.
White belts are not changing passes and going side to side effectively for the most part

A lot of white belts I have encountered try to pass by randomly exploding in a random direction or when the feel they are outmatched try to stay out of gripping range to test my patience till I got annoyed or bored.
Most of the time I just try to grip anything in the chaos but it's hard to do if you can't play whatever you get.

 

[dimmyfinster]

A lot of white belts I have encountered try to pass by randomly exploding in a random direction or when the feel they are outmatched try to stay out of gripping range to test my patience till I got annoyed or bored.
Most of the time I just try to grip anything in the chaos but it's hard to do if you can't play whatever you get.

For this guy, the guy on top running away is a win, and random torreada pass should be a defense he knows.

I question how well this guy(not the op) actually learned the techniques. OP mentioned teaching collar sleeve. Collar sleeve is not that easy to pass if the person gets good grips and is stretching you out and pulling you down. Guy on top had to fight to regain posture, then fight to free up the arm with foot in bicep or shoulder. All while person on bottom is repummeling that foot and trying to kick out your far leg to break posture again and make you start all over. and you on top getting more and more tired in this squatting position. I mean passed sure, but passed immediately every time by even white belts?

He has to not be doing something he was taught.

 

[THEfightsAREfixed]

If he's a wrestler then maybe aggressively going for getting under their base with deep half and then playing the single leg scramble game

 

[JosephDredd]

There's a guy I train with who has PTSD. He seems to shut down mentally in bottom side and when playing open guard... things start happening too fast for him to process because, internally, he's going into a bad place.

I'm interested in this thread. I think a lot of people have given up trying to help him because... well, he doesn't communicate that well when it's happening. So they just assume he's not interested in learning guard / side control escapes and is just fucking around instead of trying to learn how to fight. Meanwhile, he is getting super frustrated and working his ass off, but literally getting nowhere.

 

[DatCutman]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I question how well this guy(not the op) actually learned the techniques. OP mentioned teaching collar sleeve. Collar sleeve is not that easy to pass if the person gets good grips and is stretching you out and pulling you down. Guy on top had to fight to regain posture, then fight to free up the arm with foot in bicep or shoulder. All while person on bottom is repummeling that foot and trying to kick out your far leg to break posture again and make you start all over. and you on top getting more and more tired in this squatting position. I mean passed sure, but passed immediately every time by even white belts?

He has to not be doing something he was taught.

He can perform the moves correctly. In a zero resistance situation, he does what he's supposed to do. But in sparring, it all goes to shit. Last week he had collar sleeve, and someone just casually got under his bicep-leg, then stack passed. Other people will just push it down and pass. He just has a mental block about moving his legs in response to what is going on. I've tried drills/games of just practicing having a foot between you and the guy on top the entire time, just to break the mental block, but it just won't connect.

Not to mention the mobility issues.

I think you were on the right track with Z. There's no getting around learning basic maintenance, no guard maintains itself, but Z is often very hard for lower belts to deal with and you can often maintain it just by clamping your legs with a little hip shift to drive the top knee into the passer's hip. Plus if he can get through his head to control the far wrist and frame the face with other hand, that will give him a little time to think. It would also play well into his wrestling as he could just fight for an underhook and then go into the Leite series. If he is a good wrestler, just give him lots of ways to enter singles when the guy stands, that'll get him off his back and it's not a terrible tactic in general.

Thanks, I'm going to give this a try. I've been showing him the older way of Knee Shielding with the knee not on the hip, but on the shoulder; I think this clamp will slow things down enough to give him a chance to breathe, and hopefully build some guard confidence.

There's a guy I train with who has PTSD. He seems to shut down mentally in bottom side and when playing open guard... things start happening too fast for him to process because, internally, he's going into a bad place.

I'm interested in this thread. I think a lot of people have given up trying to help him because... well, he doesn't communicate that well when it's happening. So they just assume he's not interested in learning guard / side control escapes and is just fucking around instead of trying to learn how to fight. Meanwhile, he is getting super frustrated and working his ass off, but literally getting nowhere.

I don't think the root cause of my guy's problems is as rough as that, he just has no leg-brain. Doesn't get it from a theoretical perspective, and if things move too fast he gets flustered and it all goes to shit. Give the guy a single and it's a smooth buttery machine. Let him up into a scramble and it's like he's a racecar driver, making snap decisions at breakneck speed. Guard though...

With that said, he wants to learn, desperately. He pays attention to every detail, asks questions, doesn't slack off in drilling, has been starting on his back in sparring (instead of just spamming his A game).

I'll periodically update the thread with his trials and tribulations, for the benefit of other instructors / guys like him.

 

[QingTian]

"He just got promoted to purple, but the man can't maintain guard against white belts that know the torreanado pass."

I had/have similar background as your student, except not as challenged physically. One of the things I try to do is manage the grips so he can't pull back to control my legs. To control an arm I try to get a grip or clamp with my leg/hip behind the elbow. If he stands up I hand fight, adjust to keep the right distance and face him square, making sure to keep weight centered and sitting up so I can move. Break the grip if I fall behind. Failing that I try to scoot in deep for some sort of x guard. Basically the torreando seems like it happens suddenly but there are lots of preventative measures.

 

[mattemate]

I agree with Z guard promoters. I like Z guard fira guy like this because once you have a deep underhook, especially with a lapel grip under their far armpit, it's easy to get a strong position for the dog fight, which you said he is good at, and the grip gives good positioning to sweep, take the back, or get the belly down armbar.

I would also say a strong overhook is a good position to slow things down and think, hunt for subs and sweeps.

Very good thread so far.

 

[JagRoss]

A lot of white belts I have encountered try to pass by randomly exploding in a random direction or when the feel they are outmatched try to stay out of gripping range to test my patience till I got annoyed or bored.
Most of the time I just try to grip anything in the chaos but it's hard to do if you can't play whatever you get.

This is the most annoying shit in no-gi.
They just back up and keeping breaking grips. Sometimes I just let them pass, so that we can start working something.

 

[Daz2300]

Assuming you want to keep to Open Guards and avoid half what about trying a sit-up/koala guard or shin-on-shin type of game?

So long as he hand fights the initial grips and is aggressive he should be able to hug the leg or get shin to shin easily. These guards don't require flexible hips, would allow him use a lot of wrestling if he's good at that and can lead in to SLX, Full X, DLR and a host of other things if he makes progress.