LSD makes the brain more ‘complete’, scientists say

[Der Eisbär]

its well beyond limited -- 20 people from one, 6 from another and all were deemed healthy and had prior usage history -- not exactly a sample size or group to say "start to shine a light"

Im not going to speculate on the claims, not my field -- i am going to say i have never come across a published claim that wrote authoritatively from a study that small and undiverse.

The images taken in the study, the MRI scans of people on LSD, are the first EVER images of someones brain on LSD. How the fuck is that not shining a light?

 

[Significance Deficit]

I would never deny the revelatory effect such an experience can have on an individual, that's well-documented and not for me to decide unless some kind of reasoned argument becomes involved. Mostly of the time said experiences are perceived with such immediacy that there just isn't any room for disagreement anyway.

What I do object to is the proselytizing about the true nature of the universe and what we're all supposed to be doing within it that tends to emerge from such experiences., leading to such proclamations as "There is ONE universe that we know of and everything inside of that universe is the universe." I'm sure if we introduced the immediate perception of God in such a psychological state we'd see objections on similar grounds, but people get attached to their drugs and fail to see the parallels in the argument structure.

Each of the perspectives I mentioned is one among many that should be assessed and argued for on their proper moral and scientific merits.

That makes sense.

When I tried LSD, it wasn't because I was doing so in an effort to find a universal truth or unlock realities that would be otherwise hidden to me. It was mostly because I believed that could be one potential way to discover new lines of thinking within my own brain that had gotten lost somewhere along the way. I have undoubtedly encountered LSD advocates with massive egos who believe that their own trips have allowed them to figure out things that others can't though. Irony.

You mentioned specialization of the brain and neural pruning being a good thing, but I'm not sure that's entirely true. It certainly isn't in the case of the drug addict, as their neural pruning led them to value being high above all else, even at the expense of their own well-being. It's easy for me to see how that sort of thing can apply to many others, even if it doesn't occur to that extent. It can be the case for a person that they have gone down a bad path and then continued to go that way. That sort of specialization isn't a good thing, that's just a long term mistake that a person can't escape from. Not to mention that you talk about giving nature credit for designing us and then neglect the fact that we are humans who evolved over thousands of years and now live in a world that is changing more rapidly than ever before. We are not hardwired to thrive mentally in this sort of environment, particularly when you take into account how much longer the average lifespan is these days.

Also, wouldn't you say that something can be lost as the brain adapts to stimuli over time? We don't tend to give a shit about things when we've encountered them a thousand times before and know how we're going to react to them. People become jaded and cynical because of the efficiency of their own brain. Maybe these adaptations make sense in terms of allowing us to survive, perceive threats, know what to expect, etc. but in the modern day, a person's biggest enemy is often their own mind. It seems logical that we'd have to address that in a way that wasn't necessary in the past.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

The images taken in the study, the MRI scans of people on LSD, are the first EVER images of someones brain on LSD. How the fuck is that not shining a light?

It doesnt even tell you what the scan reveals -- nor what cynematic frequency they are using . You're just seeing some sort of activity without an explanation -- and only shows 20% of the volunteers.

What is their comparison vs people not deemed healthy? Never taken a psychedelic drug before? What do the other 16 scans look like? How are these comparable to other psychotropic drugs? How are they comparable to none chemical induced stimuli? What was the control setting? Ect, Ect.

Not sure how you can say this is a sign of anything outside of speculation -- a study this limited (and is extremely limited) shouldnt be taken as an authoritative; as was the narrative of the first article.

Shining a light -- they barely flickered a bic.

 

[FeloniousMonk]

TS, you seem rational enough
to recognize the evils & injustices of
the world. Do you really think that a
drug which puts your brain in an
infantile state is worth promoting
considering how harsh the real world
truly is? You are privileged enough to
sit on your couch or a field of grass,
frying out your mind without having
to worry about what you'll feed your
kids in the AM or if an artillery shell
will destroy your house.

But there is a reason why we can't
remain blissful little kids. Even in the
first world, where these commodities
could be enjoyed fully. The world
simply doesn't reflect that. The world
isn't a daycare & time will always be
against you. People die & hard work
& struggle is inevitable. These are
things a child's mind must ease into.
Hence the structuring of ego
& the process of self actualization.

I don't believe this planet needs
more escape. Especially not the kind
that is mostly beneficial to the
subject, alone. We as a people
&especially as a nation, are self
involved enough as it is.

I believe as a race, we need more
devotion. To ourselves, to our planet
& to each other. I don't believe the
answer is in being intoxicated with
homies for 12 hours at a time,
multiple times a month or whatever.
If you want more happy adults,
then we need more happy children.
There is no reason to assume you
can't be as "happy" as you once were.

Try and build a happiness that will
last. Not one that is predetermined
on the drugs you take or the states
they induce mentally. By all means,
have fun. But I'd suggest not letting
it become a part of yours or your
world's identity. There are better
places to seek refuge.

 

[Loiosh]

Burning it destroys the chemical.
But I'm sure you were kidding

The trick is to smoke someone tripping on LSD.

 

[Loiosh]

It doesnt even tell you what the scan reveals -- nor what cynematic frequency they are using . You're just seeing some sort of activity without an explanation -- and only shows 20% of the volunteers.

What is their comparison vs people not deemed healthy? Never taken a psychedelic drug before? What do the other 16 scans look like? How are these comparable to other psychotropic drugs? How are they comparable to none chemical induced stimuli? What was the control setting? Ect, Ect.

Not sure how you can say this is a sign of anything outside of speculation -- a study this limited (and is extremely limited) shouldnt be taken as an authoritative; as was the narrative of the first article.

Shining a light -- they barely flickered a bic.

Isn't a medical sample size smaller than 10,000 statistically useless?

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

The trick is to smoke someone tripping on LSD.

The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it's acid

 

[Der Eisbär]

It doesnt even tell you what the scan reveals -- nor what cynematic frequency they are using . You're just seeing some sort of activity without an explanation -- and only shows 20% of the volunteers.

What is their comparison vs people not deemed healthy? Never taken a psychedelic drug before? What do the other 16 scans look like? How are these comparable to other psychotropic drugs? How are they comparable to none chemical induced stimuli? What was the control setting? Ect, Ect.

Not sure how you can say this is a sign of anything outside of speculation -- a study this limited (and is extremely limited) shouldnt be taken as an authoritative; as was the narrative of the first article.

Shining a light -- they barely flickered a bic.

Okay, if it wasn't clear, the link in the OP is a newspaper article about the study. Not the actual study itself. Also, the scientists involved are trying to raise money to have the gathered data analyzed because they don't have the funding to do so.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Isn't a medical sample size smaller than 10,000 statistically useless?

Not my field, i have just never ever come across a study that muddles as much speculation as this one does based on such a small sampling with unknown and unexplained variables and controls

 

[Loiosh]

Not my field, i have just never ever come across a study that muddles as much speculation as this one does based on such a small sampling with unknown and unexplained variables and controls

Jesus, I have.

Stay away from chemtrail threads if they ever come back.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Okay, if it wasn't clear, the link in the OP is a newspaper article about the study. Not the actual study itself. Also, the scientists involved are trying to raise money to have the gathered data analyzed because they don't have the funding to do so.

But they didnt even release the study -- usually, every article relating to a study attaches said findings. That article is on par with a website like godandscience stating that the ark was real because some areas in the holy land show drumlins.

I can see the article trying to drum up hits from the pro drug crowd and the sensationalized headline lovers -- as well as Harris and Nutt glorifying their findings to secure funding.

Anything else is just pure and hopeful speculation

 

[Der Eisbär]

TS, you seem rational enough
to recognize the evils & injustices of
the world. Do you really think that a
drug which puts your brain in an
infantile state is worth promoting
considering how harsh the real world
truly is? You are privileged enough to
sit on your couch or a field of grass,
frying out your mind without having
to worry about what you'll feed your
kids in the AM or if an artillery shell
will destroy your house.

Yeah, obviously taking LSD while living in a survival situation is not ideal. But those are not the types of people that hold the power in the world. The idea is you proliferate the use of the drug amongst the people that actually hold the power in the world and can actually enact change, and the result is a more peaceful world.

But there is a reason why we can't
remain blissful little kids. Even in the
first world, where these commodities
could be enjoyed fully. The world
simply doesn't reflect that. The world
isn't a daycare & time will always be
against you. People die & hard work
& struggle is inevitable. These are
things a child's mind must ease into.
Hence the structuring of ego
& the process of self actualization.

The reason we can't remain blissfull little kids is because the world is brutal and we need to adapt for that. Self actualization is dissolution of the ego and returning to your natural state of being before society programmed you. Being loving, blissful, judgment free, etc.

I don't believe this planet needs
more escape. Especially not the kind
that is mostly beneficial to the
subject, alone. We as a people
&especially as a nation, are self
involved enough as it is.

I'm not saying we need more escape and LSD is not an escape. Things like alcohol, which are legal, widely used, and widely abused, are however an escape.

I believe as a race, we need more
devotion. To ourselves, to our planet
& to each other. I don't believe the
answer is in being intoxicated with
homies for 12 hours at a time,
multiple times a month or whatever.
If you want more happy adults,
then we need more happy children.
There is no reason to assume you
can't be as "happy" as you once were.

I agree we need more devotion to each other and the world. One of the ways to accomplish that is through experiencing your connection to your world and those around you, which is what LSD can do. Many people can come to those realizations without it, and many people cannot. Most people cannot which is why the world is so fucked.

Try and build a happiness that will
last. Not one that is predetermined
on the drugs you take or the states
they induce mentally. By all means,
have fun. But I'd suggest not letting
it become a part of yours or your
world's identity. There are better
places to seek refuge.

This is like saying don't try and use meditation to be more mindful and happy. You use your meditation experience, to build a longer lasting and permanent happiness. That's the whole idea. I am not unhappy when I'm not on LSD. I've only done it 10 times or so over 10 years.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

When I tried LSD, it wasn't because I was doing so in an effort to find a universal truth or unlock realities that would be otherwise hidden to me. It was mostly because I believed that could be one potential way to discover new lines of thinking within my own brain that had gotten lost somewhere along the way. I have undoubtedly encountered LSD advocates with massive egos who believe that their own trips have allowed them to figure out things that others can't though. Irony.

I have no issue with that. I might have studied experimental psychology but I've always been a therapist at heart. Sometimes you need an experiential shake-up to open those new roads to self-understanding. If the conclusions that came from psychedelic or even religious experiences were confined to personal narratives you wouldn't hear a peep from me.

You mentioned specialization of the brain and neural pruning being a good thing, but I'm not sure that's entirely true. It certainly isn't in the case of the drug addict, as their neural pruning led them to value being high above all else, even at the expense of their own well-being. It's easy for me to see how that sort of thing can apply to many others, even if it doesn't occur to that extent. It can be the case for a person that they have gone down a bad path and then continued to go that way. That sort of specialization isn't a good thing, that's just a long term mistake that a person can't escape from. Not to mention that you talk about giving nature credit for designing us and then neglect the fact that we are humans who evolved over thousands of years and now live in a world that is changing more rapidly than ever before. We are not hardwired to thrive mentally in this sort of environment, particularly when you take into account how much longer the average lifespan is these days.

Well, first I'd make the physiological distinction between the pruning that happens in a brain over time and the reinforcement of an existing neural circuit to the point of addiction. Pruning as a reduction in cortical volume is more related to losing the ability to perceive the minute differences between certain sounds or to learn certain movement patterns as quickly. This results in less neurological "noise" and more precision in the networks that remain, for example increased dexterity in movement patterns that are frequently practiced.

There's a similarity with addiction in that neurons that fire together more frequently are less likely to be pruned, but addiction is more the result of repeated activation of a specific pathway that would never be at risk of being pruned, which is the reward pathway. This circuitry keeps you alive by keeping you "addicted" to things that keep you and your lineage alive, like sugar and sex, but it can be hijacked by exogenous stimuli (cocaine does a pretty good job) as well.

Another major difference would be that while you can dull an addiction you can't "reverse prune" because the cortical volume has literally disappeared, although if you could somehow convince one cortical area to grow rampantly into the volume typically reserved for another, that could open up some interesting possibilities (though it could also fuck you up immensely - imagine your auditory cortex growing through your motor cortex, for example, so maybe your hearing capacity would increase at the expense of movement below your knees). This is part of what I mean when I say the brain's compartments are purposeful and breaking them down in any meaningful way would be dangerous before anything else. It's a relatively fragile ecosystem up there, which is what we should expect if we're assuming it evolved piece by necessary piece.

Whether we're mentally hard-wired to thrive in the modern environment isn't something I have an opinion on one way or the other right now. We've casually designed an environment capable of catering to our every whim and want (if you can afford it), but whether you want to call that progress is a conversation beyond the scope of this thread.

Also, wouldn't you say that something can be lost as the brain adapts to stimuli over time? We don't tend to give a shit about things when we've encountered them a thousand times before and know how we're going to react to them. People become jaded and cynical because of the efficiency of their own brain. Maybe these adaptations make sense in terms of allowing us to survive, perceive threats, know what to expect, etc. but in the modern day, a person's biggest enemy is often their own mind. It seems logical to address that we'd have to address that in a way that wasn't necessary in the past.

For sure there are certain opportunities that are lost - learning new athletic movements or musical instruments or languages were examples I'd already mentioned. But to move up another level of abstraction and assume that chemical de-compartmentalizing would somehow lend itself to increased personal virtuosity or cross-cultural empathy - I'd need to see more evidence for that.

Furthermore I'd need to ponder about the merits of artificially enhanced empathy and probably read Brave New World a few more times.

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

Never done acid. Have done many other substances but the mind altering shit always scared me a bit.

 

[Significance Deficit]

Well, first I'd make the physiological distinction between the pruning that happens in a brain over time and the reinforcement of an existing neural circuit to the point of addiction. Pruning as a reduction in cortical volume is more related to losing the ability to perceive the minute differences between certain sounds or to learn certain movement patterns as quickly. This results in less neurological "noise" and more precision in the networks that remain, for example increased dexterity in movement patterns that are frequently practiced.

There's a similarity with addiction in that neurons that fire together more frequently are less likely to be pruned, but addiction is more the result of repeated activation of a specific pathway that would never be at risk of being pruned, which is the reward pathway. This circuitry keeps you alive by keeping you "addicted" to things that keep you and your lineage alive, like sugar and sex, but it can be hijacked by exogenous stimuli (cocaine does a pretty good job) as well.

Another major difference would be that while you can dull an addiction you can't "reverse prune" because the cortical volume has literally disappeared, although if you could somehow convince one cortical area to grow rampantly into the volume typically reserved for another, that could open up some interesting possibilities (though it could also fuck you up immensely - imagine your auditory cortex growing through your motor cortex, for example, so maybe your hearing capacity would increase at the expense of movement below your knees). This is part of what I mean when I say the brain's compartments are purposeful and breaking them down in any meaningful way would be dangerous before anything else. It's a relatively fragile ecosystem up there, which is what we should expect if we're assuming it evolved piece by necessary piece.

Interesting. Admittedly, some of this shit might be over my head.

So you said that LSD could have some application in the treatment of depression earlier. Are you saying that it wouldn't have the same usefulness for a former addict, as you can't reverse prune?

 

[These Two Hands]

Also, wouldn't you say that something can be lost as the brain adapts to stimuli over time? We don't tend to give a shit about things when we've encountered them a thousand times before and know how we're going to react to them. People become jaded and cynical because of the efficiency of their own brain. .

Many of the huachumeros warn about this happening when people haven't absorbed all of the "lessons" from the last huachuma (mescaline) experience but go seeking more. Essentially they are anti-recreational usage as it is not something perceived to be meant to be taken lightly.

Peyote road chiefs also warn about this in similar ways, in fact some of the road chiefs are quite fierce in their advocacy against flippant recreational use.

I mean, it makes sense. We are talking about experiences far from the mundane, one should certainly not treat them as mundane - and absolutely not abuse them to the point of actually becoming (from one's own point of view, at least) mundane.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Many of the huachumeros warn about this happening when people haven't absorbed all of the "lessons" from the last huachuma (mescaline) experience but go seeking more. Essentially they are anti-recreational usage as it is not something perceived to be meant to be taken lightly.

Peyote road chiefs also warn about this in similar ways, in fact some of the road chiefs are quite fierce in their advocacy against flippant recreational use.

I mean, it makes sense. We are talking about experiences far from the mundane, one should certainly not treat them as mundane - and absolutely not abuse them to the point of actually becoming (from one's own point of view, at least) mundane.

Excellent post mate. Have you seen the recent film Embrace of the Serpent? If not you should definitely watch it, I think you'd love it.

By the way, when are you back over here? We'll have to meet up for a pint or something.

 

[These Two Hands]

Excellent post mate. Have you seen the recent film Embrace of the Serpent? If not you should definitely watch it, I think you'd love it.

I've not seen it, but I will definitely watch it

By the way, when are you back over here? We'll have to meet up for a pint or something.

I've been and gone! I was home over Xmas and New Years, didn't get online much and was an absolute whirlwind tour... Was flat out the whole time. Sorry, I had said we would try to catch up for a drink too but I was a bit distracted with long overdue catching up... big family!

I'm hoping to get back over for Ma's birthday in August, and I'll hold you to that pint!

 

[Rimbaud82]

I've not seen it, but I will definitely watch it



I've been and gone! I was home over Xmas and New Years, didn't get online much and was an absolute whirlwind tour... Was flat out the whole time. Sorry, I had said we would try to catch up for a drink too but I was a bit distracted with long overdue catching up... big family!

I'm hoping to get back over for Ma's birthday in August, and I'll hold you to that pint!

Haha no worries, I had just remembered you saying in that other thread. August is dead on too. But yeah, Embrace of the Serpent is incredible, an instant classic in my opinion. Haven't seen enough people talking about it, but it was easily the best film of last year for me, there are a few anti-colonial themes in it, but one in particular is the treatment of psychoactive plants...essentially it's something like Aguirre, the Wrath of God, FItzcarraldo or although it's a book set in Africa, Heart of Darkness, but told from the native perspective.

 

[irish_thug]

I saw way too many friends have bad trips back in the early 90's to buy into that.