Making a murderer season 2

Why would it hinge on more than a couple of police officers transplanting evidence to pull this off? An entire chess game can be changed by moving just one piece. This is a small town with roughly 83,000 citizens at best. The pertinent issue is still that the false conviction makes the entire Manitowoc Police department appear incompetent.

I was never asserting the puncture hole was created by someone who extracted blood but could potentially be used as a way to extract the blood. According to a post on Reddit, this user who works as a phlebotomist was able to extract fluid from a vile after it had been filled in a similar manner .

"UPDATE: I have tested (more than once) to see if you can withdraw blood from the vial using a syringe (This is they only way you could possibly withdraw blood from this type of system) without removing the top. IT IS POSSIBLE, and not nearly as messy as I would have thought."

().

There was a test created to identify if the anti-coagulant EDTA is present in blood specifically for this case. That is questionable science in my opinion because the test is not infallible.

Scientist Chad Steele writing about the EDTA Detection Test:
"I have recently watched the documentary series, “Making a Murderer.” I know that everyone has thoughts and opinions after watching this, and I am no different. However, I would just like to share some facts about a few pieces of evidence, and the fault in how they were used. My current profession revolves around making sure scientific tests measure exactly what they are supposed to measure and do so in a consistent, reliable way. It is in this spirit, that I feel like I am allowed to weigh in on the “DNA bullet” and the EDTA detection.

When these tests are developed, there are controls put into place that ensure the test was run correctly. These controls are usually of a positive and negative variety: the positive control will have a known substance or quantity that will produce a result that falls within a specific range and the negative control will produce no result (a zero, nothing detected, etc.). In order to be able to produce results that can be labeled “scientifically valid,” the test must contain controls. If something comes up in the negative control, it is an invalid test. If the positive control produces a result that is abnormal or out of range, it is an invalid test. An invalid test means, in effect, that there are NO ACTUAL TEST RESULTS. In regards to whatever sample you were testing, in that specific test, there are no results. This prevents reporting of tainted, skewed, and erroneous results.

While DNA testing the bullet, the technician performing the test found that some of her own DNA got into the negative control. Because the negative control was no longer negative, it was an invalid test. Because she used the entire sample, she decided to submit a deviation, so the results from the sample could be used despite an invalid test. This is extremely poor science at best, and at worst…well, planting evidence and bias doesn’t need to be mentioned any more than it already has. Even mentioning that the bullet had the victim’s DNA on it is a lie. It was based on an invalid test. Scientists NEVER draw conclusions from an invalid test. The fact that she did not save any sample to be tested again is not the defendant’s fault. It is an error. This situation should have been deemed “inconclusive” or “no test” and, thus, there is no test result that became evidence.

Detecting EDTA from a blood swab sample sounds fairly straightforward. However, without having a documented limit of detection, no scientist can accept what the test can and can’t do. If one does not know what a test can and cannot do, he or she cannot use that test to draw any conclusions. Let’s discuss the “limit of detection.” Imagine one particle of flu virus lands on your arm. There is no person in their right mind that would knowingly be able to feel it land on his or her arm. On the other hand, everyone would be able to feel a brick land on their arm. There is a “limit of detection” that the human sense of touch inherently has.

In regards to the documentary, the test showed that no EDTA was detectable in the blood swabs. Without a limit of detection, this information means nothing, absolutely nothing. It is possible that the test could only detect EDTA if EDTA composed at least 50% of the sample. The amount of EDTA in blood tubes is miniscule, almost negligible compared to the amount of blood. We are talking about 7 milligrams of EDTA in a 4-mL blood tube. If 0.1 mL was taken out, it would, at most, contain 0.2 mg of EDTA. The blood was swabbed from the vehicle, and probably only 1/10 of the blood (0.01 mL of actual blood), thereby diluting it further. The swab used was also wetted with some sort of solvent, maybe 0.1 mL. Now, there’s only 0.002 mg of EDTA in the blood swab. The swab most likely was diluted further for test purposes, probably taking the swab and re-suspending into at least 1 mL of solution. Using my numbers, which are probably conservative, the test would have to be able to detect 0.0002 mg (0.2 µg) of EDTA in 1 mL of sample. Outside of the amount of EDTA present in a 4-mL blood tube, these numbers are hypothetical for illustrative purposes only.

The testing that would have been required to scientifically validate this test would have required some time. After following standard validation procedures, I would have taken blood from an EDTA vial (any blood) and put it onto a vehicle surface. After the blood was completely dry, I would have used the same blood swabbing and collection procedure used during the investigation, and then tested that sample. This would be a positive control, since the technician would know that there was EDTA in that sample. Does the newly-developed test detect the EDTA? If so, repeat it at least 10 times, and you have a strong scientific ground to make the statement that there was no EDTA present in the blood from the vehicle. If the test does not detect EDTA from the experiment above, one cannot make any mention about the presence or absence of EDTA in the blood swabs from the vehicle because the test could not detect EDTA amounts that small.

I do not know all of the work that went into developing the EDTA detection test. However, using the results and drawing a conclusion based on those results, without having a well-defined test with a limit of detection, is a LIE. I will not mention using the results from only 3 swabs to extrapolate results onto the untested swabs. That was just plain unethical, and I am glad a rebuttal witness for the defense made that clear.

I have plenty of opinions about what I saw in the documentary, which I may share later. I just wanted to lay out some facts from the scientific field about what I saw. Based on what I have presented here, pretend the bullet had no trace of the victim, and pretend the blood swabs were never tested for the presence of EDTA. That is what should have been done."

I was by no means implying that crushing a car was a simple endeavor especially for most individuals. However, you have me wondering about the difficult of this task. How easy is this task for an individual who strips down cars for a career? This consists of removing the battery, dropping the gas tank, draining the oil, draining the radiator of engine coolant, pulling the engine block from the vehicle, then transporting the vehicle to be crushed? Most likely, a days work for an experienced junk yard dog with all the tools readily available. The Avery property was not searched until 4 days after Teresa went missing.


I made this mistake of being drunk and tired when I read this. You quoted a lot of information so I'll have to come back tomorrow.

But for now, as far as I know, the defense dropped the vial as evidence when a nurse who worked in the lab where the blood was stored was called as a witness. And I am skeptical as anecdotal Reddit posts as any sort of evidence. Just the same as another post in this thread that was someone who "knowns" the ex boyfriend. ANYONE can post on reddit and claim to be someone who knows someone.

Also, EDTA wouldn't be a difficult compound to test for. It's literally a compound that keeps blood from coagulation. Either blood has it present or it doesn't. Which is the reason it never came up in the defense's case.
 
I made this mistake of being drunk and tired when I read this. You quoted a lot of information so I'll have to come back tomorrow.

But for now, as far as I know, the defense dropped the vial as evidence when a nurse who worked in the lab where the blood was stored was called as a witness. And I am skeptical as anecdotal Reddit posts as any sort of evidence. Just the same as another post in this thread that was someone who "knowns" the ex boyfriend. ANYONE can post on reddit and claim to be someone who knows someone.

Also, EDTA wouldn't be a difficult compound to test for. It's literally a compound that keeps blood from coagulation. Either blood has it present or it doesn't. Which is the reason it never came up in the defense's case.
I appreciate the debate and look forward to your rebuttal. Your previous posts definitely intrigued me.
 
Some quality posts in this thread, keep it up.
 
Who else thinks that it was Bobby dassey and Scott tadych that did it.
 
I think he's guilty as fuck and the evidence proves it but he did spend 16 years in prison for a previous crime he didn't commit. The state was going to have to pay him $30m and an officer who convicted him on the previous crime sat on a confession that would've proved Avery was innocent, the same officer involved in the Halabch case. Those circumstances factor in a great deal why a lot of people see things as suspicious and think Avery is innocent.

Brendan deserves a retrial though I think as the only evidence linking him to the murder is the confession and it could be argued and has been by judges that he was coerced into confessing.


The issue with that previous statement is that he didn't spend those 16 years because of department wide police corruption, and he literally had his case taken up by powerful groups. Steven was the last person you would want to frame for murder because all eyes are on him and what's going on. The cops weren't at risk by the way. Just because the law suit was occurring against the city doesn't mean the officers gave a shit.
 
The deeper you get into this season the more BS shows up. How was this handled so poorly initially. Why was the pattern of the blood not tested? Why wasn't the strength of the fire that supposedly consumed Teresa's body not tested? How could the find no bones in that barrel but then search it a week later and find bones?

This whole case is incredibly fishy and sloppy. Maybe Steven is right, if he had Kathleen in his corner from the start, he may not be in prison right now.
 
Agreed

Skeletor doing her own experiments was corny

She either needs to find who really did it or give up

I think he’s guilty

Too much evidence and too many coincidences like the hand cuffs and leg irons

There was no evidence to link the hand cuffs and leg irons to the murder apart from the imagination of a retarded 16 year old.

I would have liked to see the prosecutions counter arguments to the facts she presented. What I find strange is the people arguing that it’s likely that the police planted evidence but are saying that there is no chance Avery didn’t do it.
 
There was no evidence to link the hand cuffs and leg irons to the murder apart from the imagination of a retarded 16 year old.

I would have liked to see the prosecutions counter arguments to the facts she presented. What I find strange is the people arguing that it’s likely that the police planted evidence but are saying that there is no chance Avery didn’t do it.


How does a retarded 16 year old make up those devices use in a sexual manner?

I thought all he knew was how to play video games.

I def feel police planted evidence but that happens all the time. Doesn’t make it right. But I think it would be even more difficult for a rapist like Brendan’s brother to have been able to orchestrate everything to point to Avery and not leave any evidence pointing to himself.
 
How does a retarded 16 year old make up those devices use in a sexual manner?

I thought all he knew was how to play video games.

I def feel police planted evidence but that happens all the time. Doesn’t make it right. But I think it would be even more difficult for a rapist like Brendan’s brother to have been able to orchestrate everything to point to Avery and not leave any evidence pointing to himself.

Well a 16yr old that maybe saw the twisted shit his older brother was looking at on the computer, might have been able to come up with some twisted stories to tell.
 
How does a retarded 16 year old make up those devices use in a sexual manner?

I thought all he knew was how to play video games.

I def feel police planted evidence but that happens all the time. Doesn’t make it right. But I think it would be even more difficult for a rapist like Brendan’s brother to have been able to orchestrate everything to point to Avery and not leave any evidence pointing to himself.

Plenty of ways to see things like that, I wouldn’t be surprised if his brother showed him some twisted shit on the computer in the past, or he saw it in a film or even one of the computer games he plays. But had it happened the way he said the room and garage would have been filled with her blood and dna and it wasn’t, there wasnt even signs if a clean up in neither the bed room or the garage which is where he said they shot her.

The point is he wouldn’t have needed to orchestrate everything if the police where planting evidence on Avery which you are insinuating is likely the case, and every single bit of evidence pointing to Avery has serious questions to its legitimacy. All he had to do was commit the murder and cut up the body which doesn’t seem too far fetched for a deer hunter who watches rape mutilation porn and the police did the rest.
 
RAV4 - planted
Key - planted
Blood - planted
Burned bones - planted
Brendan confession - false

Once you remove those pieces of evidence the case looks different. All 5 of those I believe have been thoroughly debunked. Whether you believe Steve is guilty or not, you have to admit the cops planted all this.

The trouble I'm having is figuring out if the killer was Ryan or Bobby. They're both clearly hiding something.
 
RAV4 - planted
Key - planted
Blood - planted
Burned bones - planted
Brendan confession - false

Once you remove those pieces of evidence the case looks different. All 5 of those I believe have been thoroughly debunked. Whether you believe Steve is guilty or not, you have to admit the cops planted all this.

They planted her remains? Really? Did they kill her too?
 
Plenty of ways to see things like that, I wouldn’t be surprised if his brother showed him some twisted shit on the computer in the past, or he saw it in a film or even one of the computer games he plays. But had it happened the way he said the room and garage would have been filled with her blood and dna and it wasn’t, there wasnt even signs if a clean up in neither the bed room or the garage which is where he said they shot her.

The point is he wouldn’t have needed to orchestrate everything if the police where planting evidence on Avery which you are insinuating is likely the case, and every single bit of evidence pointing to Avery has serious questions to its legitimacy. All he had to do was commit the murder and cut up the body which doesn’t seem too far fetched for a deer hunter who watches rape mutilation porn and the police did the rest.

Then why didn’t he say at any time during the past ten years my brother showed me that?
 
Well a 16yr old that maybe saw the twisted shit his older brother was looking at on the computer, might have been able to come up with some twisted stories to tell.


Another maybe

Maybe this case needs a few more decades to be solved
 
I finished season 2 last night and went from believing Avery was guilty after season 1 to believing he didn't do anything to Theresa.
 
I finished season 2 last night and went from believing Avery was guilty after season 1 to believing he didn't do anything to Theresa.
I find it alarming the amount of people who say this.

Imagine that it was your mom or sister who worked for Auto trader, would you be so willing to believe a tv show?
 
The show would be better if it wasn't so one-sided... they make a big deal about things with simple explanations.

Bobby Dassey's computer, for example.... it's the a computer in a trailer home. For all we know Steve Avery or Brendon was on that computer doing those searches.

Then there's brendon saying to his mom right after the confession "what if Steve's story is different?" That one statement doesn't make ANY sense if brendon was outright making stuff up... in that case of course Steve's story would be different. It seems likely to me that what brendon is worried about in that moment is that he won't be believed by the cops and get his "deal" if Steve makes up a different story other than the TRUE one he told.

I do think there's resonable doubt in this case and these two shouldn't have been convicted, but if I was betting the odds.... they did it.
 
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