Marines Reissuing the 1911

[jericksen5]

The service awarded a $22.5 million contract to Colt Defense for its M1911A1 Rail Guns. The deal was finalized Wednesday night, according to Barb Hamby, a spokeswoman for Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va. Precise details are expected to be released Thursday evening, but there is widespread speculation the order will total some 4,000 firearms.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/07/marine-corps-marsoc-new-colt-45-caliber-pistols-071912/

 

[General Sherman]

$22.5 mil for 4000 guns? Wow.


Too bad it's only for their Spec Ops types. The majority of US servicemembers would absolutely love a return to the 1911.

 

[Protectandserve]

I might have a deployment coming up and would kill to have one of these as my sidearm!

 

[Roaming East]

did they ever solve the slide cracking issue?
Seems like the only reason they are keeping an inferior design (there are plenty of better .45 pistols) is some sort of misplaced sentimentality...

 

[Jory]

did they ever solve the slide cracking issue?
Seems like the only reason they are keeping an inferior design (there are plenty of better .45 pistols) is some sort of misplaced sentimentality...

USMC is full of sentimentality in the name esprit de corps.

Seems to work alright for them.

Besides, the Beretta is a piece of shit.

 

[Roaming East]

USMC is full of sentimentality in the name esprit de corps.

Seems to work alright for them.

Besides, the Beretta is a piece of shit.

I suppose you're right on the first part. The Corps has ALWAYS been resistant to changing to newer, superior firearms. These are the guys who looked at the M1 Garand and said, "nuts to that, give me a 1903" and went into battle until 1943 with most of their troops slinging lead from a bolt action rifle.

Sentimentality is all well and good but dont let it blind you to reality and especially dont let it get people killed because some general officer had a hard on for what he used 'back in the day'


On your second point, i'll assume you are a soldier or marine with years of service using the M9 as a primary weapon under your belt. What makes it shitty firearm exactly? especially compared to the 1911?

The REAL answer to why they adopted what to me is an inferior instance of the 1911 is because THEY ALREADY HAD THEM, and it would take “too long” to go a different direction.

Our military follows NATO standards, and for any unit to deviate they have to have some sort of waiver. The Marine SoC already had this for the Colt 1911. By generating a procurement contract for an updated version of an already approved firearm they avoided having to do a new solicitation and go through the procurement hoops.

 

[Jory]

I suppose you're right on the first part. The Corps has ALWAYS been resistant to changing to newer, superior firearms. These are the guys who looked at the M1 Garand and said, "nuts to that, give me a 1903" and went into battle until 1943 with most of their troops slinging lead from a bolt action rifle.

Sentimentality is all well and good but dont let it blind you to reality and especially dont let it get people killed because some general officer had a hard on for what he used 'back in the day'


On your second point, i'll assume you are a soldier or marine with years of service using the M9 as a primary weapon under your belt. What makes it shitty firearm exactly? especially compared to the 1911?

The REAL answer to why they adopted what to me is an inferior instance of the 1911 is because THEY ALREADY HAD THEM, and it would take

 

[exHeavyHippie]

Is there one gun guy on this board that would rather take a Beretta into a gun fight over the 1911?
BTW, that Colt looks ALOT like the Sig 1911 Scorpion.

 

[Roaming East]

Is there one gun guy on this board that would rather take a Beretta into a gun fight over the 1911?
BTW, that Colt looks ALOT like the Sig 1911 Scorpion.

I would. I have. I deployed twice with an M9 as weapon and never looked back.
Id pick a LOT of different pistols over a 1911. I'd pick a browning Hi-power over a 1911, id pick any Glock, id even pick an HK USP which i find to be JUST as over rated and finicky as a 1911.

I dont know whats sadder, the over adulation for 1911's despite decades of advancement, or continuing to see them show up at defensive pistol schools only for them to die within 3 hours because of reliability issues and for the school issue Glock spares to be handed out.

 

[exHeavyHippie]

I would. I have. I deployed twice with an M9 as weapon and never looked back.
Id pick a LOT of different pistols over a 1911. I'd pick a browning Hi-power over a 1911, id pick any Glock, id even pick an HK USP which i find to be JUST as over rated and finicky as a 1911.

I dont know whats sadder, the over adulation for 1911's despite decades of advancement, or continuing to see them show up at defensive pistol schools only for them to die within 3 hours because of reliability issues and for the school issue Glock spares to be handed out.

I don't have much love for the 1911, but I have less love for the m9.
BTW, did you have a choice in what pistol you deployed with?

 

[Roaming East]

I don't have much love for the 1911, but I have less love for the m9.
BTW, did you have a choice in what pistol you deployed with?

No, i went to LRS with my orders, drew my kit, and went to the hangar. i didnt even get to check functionality til i was in country. The m4 and m9 i was issued on both occasions looked as used as a 2 dollar whore though. thats uncle sam for you

 

[Gallachobar]

$22.5 mil for 4000 guns? Wow.
.

The armorers get a ridiculous amount of life out of them, they can rebuild the same receiver over and over and over again. IIRC they were using some pre-1950 receivers until recently, or at least that's what a couple of gunsmiths claim.

These are very nice pistols, they've been given the combat meltdown, high-cuts, beavertail grip safeties, flat MSH with laynard loop, flared ejection port etc. etc. For that price I'd expect that a good amount of hands-on work goes into each gun, which is as it should be. I don't see any checkering or other grip modifications, which is too bad. Should have gone with the diamond-plate IMO.

 

[Gallachobar]

The REAL answer to why they adopted what to me is an inferior instance of the 1911 is because THEY ALREADY HAD THEM, and it would take

 

[SMEAC]

Due to the aluminum frame and their being holstered most of the time. The M9 has to be completely replaced at the greatest rate of any military firearm currently used.

The Corps probably looked at that and the fact that the units that already have 1911's run the shit out of them.

 

[Roaming East]

Due to the aluminum frame and their being holstered most of the time. The M9 has to be completely replaced at the greatest rate of any military firearm currently used.

The Corps probably looked at that and the fact that the units that already have 1911's run the shit out of them.

im going to need a source before i buy that. These 1911's are showing catastrophic parts wear at 12,000 rounds. thats not even enough to QUALIFY as a combat pistol in the US military. the M9 btw consistently showed a MRBF of 35,000.

Like i said. The corps is using a pistol they already have so they dont have to go through a lengthy procurement process and jump through political hoops to get the weapon issued and in service. If given a choice im sure they'd pick a more 'robust' option but given the USMC lack of choice in such options historically, they go with what they got.

FWIW, if i was a MEUSOC operator, i dont care how Gucci having a 1911 strapped to your side was, in the back of my mind id be concerned that im getting a pistol thats half as reliable, half as robust and with half as many rounds as other .45 spec ops folks are getting. Never should have gotten rid of the HK45 after the JCP trials...

 

[SMEAC]

im going to need a source before i buy that. These 1911's are showing catastrophic parts wear at 12,000 rounds. thats not even enough to QUALIFY as a combat pistol in the US military. the M9 btw consistently showed a MRBF of 35,000.

Like i said. The corps is using a pistol they already have so they dont have to go through a lengthy procurement process and jump through political hoops to get the weapon issued and in service. If given a choice im sure they'd pick a more 'robust' option but given the USMC lack of choice in such options historically, they go with what they got.

FWIW, if i was a MEUSOC operator, i dont care how Gucci having a 1911 strapped to your side was, in the back of my mind id be concerned that im getting a pistol thats half as reliable, half as robust and with half as many rounds as other .45 spec ops folks are getting. Never should have gotten rid of the HK45 after the JCP trials...

Very simply, steel frames last for nearly forever. Aluminum ones wear and when they hold the SN you have to replace the whole system. Pistols spend a majority of their time in a holster getting abused. You are also basing your numbers off the first test of the pistol over a year ago.

"If given a choice..." you aren't a Marine and don't get it. They don't give a fuck what you think, and they don't worry as much about procurement as you think. The Corps is small enough that they will pull of something if they want it. Plus they can run the shit out of 1911's

You aren't MARSOC and you aren't in a SOF unit, so it isn't worth much.

BTW MARSOC has G19's and M9A1's too

 

[Byron Pechorin]

Really don't know if 1911's belong in the desert...

 

[Lug's Spear]

im going to need a source before i buy that. These 1911's are showing catastrophic parts wear at 12,000 rounds. thats not even enough to QUALIFY as a combat pistol in the US military. the M9 btw consistently showed a MRBF of 35,000.

Like i said. The corps is using a pistol they already have so they dont have to go through a lengthy procurement process and jump through political hoops to get the weapon issued and in service. If given a choice im sure they'd pick a more 'robust' option but given the USMC lack of choice in such options historically, they go with what they got.

FWIW, if i was a MEUSOC operator, i dont care how Gucci having a 1911 strapped to your side was, in the back of my mind id be concerned that im getting a pistol thats half as reliable, half as robust and with half as many rounds as other .45 spec ops folks are getting. Never should have gotten rid of the HK45 after the JCP trials...

If 1911s have issues it's out of the box, after they get fixed you are not going to really have an issue with reliability. Also 1911s do last a fairly long time, The steel frame is more resistant to cracking than other materials. I saw a thread on a kimber forum where this guy had over 100,000 rounds through his gun before having to replace the frame.

Edit: Here is what I was referring to. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=320750&highlight=Broke

Thought I'd share this with those of you who have had less than favorable experiences with their KIMBER or KIMBER CS.

On May 28th of of this year I was at my local range shooting my TLE/RL like I do every weekend. I carry this gun every day at work while on patrol and it's also my SWAT gun. I've had this gun since April 2004 and it HAD the external extractor. Well, at round 143,519 my extractor came out of the slide. Hmmmmm. Well I found the extractor, took the slide apart and put the extractor and spring back in. At round 143,526 it came out again. well this ended my range session and I picked up the extractor and went home.

Monday morning I called KIMBER and told them what happened and was instructed to send the gun in. I got a call from CS on Monday June 5th and a very polite and knowledgeable gentleman told me that the reason that my extractor came out was because the back end of the extractor groove as well as the hole for the extractor spring, had cracked thusly losing the tolerances needed to keep it in place or whatever.

He then asked me how many rounds I had shot through the gun and when I told him he literaly gasped and asked me if I was serious. I told him that I would be happy to fax him a copy of my log book which details every single shooting session I've had with this thing, noting all, if any issues encountered with not only the gun but the ammo as well. He asked why I kept such detailed records and I informed him that having been both a military and SWAT sniper made it a habit. Well he went on to tell me that the slide would be replaced free of charge. Great! He also said that outside of a little above average wear on the slide rails, the frame was in surprisingly good shape considering the high round count. He said that the gun would be shipped out by the end of the week.

Today I got another call from the same guy and he told me that there would be a delay in getting my gun back. What?????? he explained that some of the folks in the engineering department and the custom shop wanted to have a look at the gun and for my patience I would recieve all new parts excluding the frame. Umm, ok, I'm on vacation anyways.

So, for those of you who have had less than pleasant experiences with KIMBER CS, don't let one person sour you on the product. I have NEVER had a problem with their CS. That and the quality of their guns is the reason I carry a KIMBER. The only company that comes close to KIMBER is SA

 

[Roaming East]

"If given a choice..." you aren't a Marine and don't get it. They don't give a fuck what you think, and they don't worry as much about procurement as you think. The Corps is small enough that they will pull of something if they want it. Plus they can run the shit out of 1911's

You aren't MARSOC and you aren't in a SOF unit, so it isn't worth much.

BTW MARSOC has G19's and M9A1's too

You're right, im not a Marine, im currently Army and used to be Air Force. When we deploy we use the best weapons possible. Always have always will. The Marines can use whatever the hell their Commandant wants them to, because at the end of the day, its THEIR ass on the line, and if they want to go into combat with a low capacity, fragile pistol for no other reason that because 'it harkens back to a yadda yadda yadda' BS thats cool too. The Marines have a long and proud tradition of stubbornly holding onto old ideas and concepts at the cost of blood. Far be it from me to call em on it.

The 1911 is fine. There are better options but its basically a weapon of last resort anyway whose usage in combat borders on the rare. My only complaint is that out of all the 1911's they could have went with, they went with one from a Mfg who has apparently had extreme quality control issues with them.

 

[Strychnine]

USMC is full of sentimentality in the name esprit de corps.

Seems to work alright for them.

Besides, the Beretta is a piece of shit.

Bingo! Right on the nose!