Not sure what you mean. What is your experience? Do you mean how much time have I spent training? At this point I have done about 250hrs of sport BJJ, and 250 hours of Gracie Combatives over the course of 1.5 years. I also wrestled in high school for a few seasons.
My Experience with both Gracie Combatives and Sport BJJ
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Not sure what you mean. What is your experience? Do you mean how much time have I spent training? At this point I have done about 250hrs of sport BJJ, and 250 hours of Gracie Combatives over the course of 1.5 years. I also wrestled in high school for a few seasons.
Saying that they are detailed enough to learn without an instructor is NOT saying that you can learn a move in class and rep it out without help. Your instructor does not have enough time, and frequently enough experience teaching to be able to teach with the detail that Rener and Ryron teach with in the DVDs. Many instructors are fantastic fighters, but not great teachers. The one that are great teachers just do not have the time to do this. I have a hard time believing Rener and Ryron can do this in their classes as well. It would take too long. But, honestly the detail is that good. The format is like this:
-Tell you the name of the technique
-Demonstrate the technique slowly
-Explain the basic parts and demonstrate again with multiple angles
-Explain one detail and demonstrate again
-Explain another detail and demonstrate again (and so on until they have covered all details)
-Explain the most common mistakes people make with the technique (where the pressure or angle of force should flow, hand position, etc) while demonstrating it again.
By the time you have watched the whole thing you are thinking, "I could do that, " instead of, "that is a lot of details!" If you get stuck (which can sometimes happen), you can play the silent demo which shows one rep done by Ryron and one by Rener with different angles. Both are done slowly. Basically you just cannot get the same detail in class. Also the instruction is coming from world class fighters and teachers on top of it all.
Like I said in the original post, the combatives is not that helpful if you want to improve your sport game, but it does have some great self defense techniques in it (which is what I began this journey in the first place). I have not done the Master Cycle yet (the course after the combatives are complete). From my understanding it is supposed to continue to cover self defense as well as sport technique, but I am not sure where I am going to go from here since I would really like to focus on my sport game for a while. Sparring and competition has really gotten me hooked. I love competing.
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lol...harsh but true..
That being said I think EVERYONE should learn the Gracie combatives before they get their blue belt
Toolshed,
Don't be so quick to believe the typings of a keyboard warrior who still lives in his mama's basement and only showers once a week.
This format covers everything I'm used to getting from any quality jiu jitsu instruction I've ever gotten, from any teacher (I've moved several times and trained at many gyms). If you're not getting that type of detail from your gym I'd suggest you look around and see if you can find one that will provide it.
And still, after receiving that instruction, I've often had questions that have benefited from the experience of having a teacher there. Also, not to be forgotten, is the benefit of questions people around me asked that I would have have never thought of. Good DVDs make great training supplements, but they can't replace the need for a good school.
We don't all live in California.
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IMHO, I think Gracie Combatives aren't necessarily good for pure submission grappling, but it might be worth learning for MMA. For example:
How often do you see this situation in MMA? Even Randy Couture, a veteran of what, 11 or 12 years at the time of the Nogueira fight? Even he was still making mistakes like that.
How often do you see this situation in MMA? Even Randy Couture, a veteran of what, 11 or 12 years at the time of the Nogueira fight? Even he was still making mistakes like that.
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Um...I don't either but he said nothing wrong in his post.
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Genuinely believe Gracie Combatives is the perfect first stripe curriculum. Gets them acquainted safely and efficiently. Then take the training wheels off and learn how to roll.
It's true, I've been fortunate in finding good schools, while in California, Delaware, Florida, and Italy. I know that for some people finding a good school isn't possible and for them a good DVD series might be the next best thing.
But my main point was an argument against your implication that the DVDs were capable of providing better instruction than an actual teacher. Vitamin C argued that the instructionals would not be enough to fully learn the moves without an instructor. Your response was that the DVDs were complete enough by themselves because the teaching method was so superior. It doesn't matter how well a move is presented to a student, there will almost always be questions to be asked.
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If you are talking about Gracie Combative dvd instructionals or watever then I disagree. Training at an academy that competes a lot is far superior to learning from Gracie dvd's. There is no way you will be able to match the timing, techniques, and mat strength that you build fighting game opponents. As a white-brown belt you need guys better than you to make you better, and I dont see that happening watching dvd's with buddies.
If you want the best of both worlds self defense/sports bjj then find an academy that is geared towards vale tudo.
just my .02.
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Don't hate! :icon_chee
Charlitos1988
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for drilling is better the "EL JEFE grappling dummy"
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Good thing this isn't the most dead horse thread subject of all time...seriously tho, the combatives are awesome. I still train at a school that competes, but don't knock the combatives if you have no experience with them.
teamcarvalho
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+1 good answer
Reading old thread. I think the ops post is spot on. I train a Royce Gracie school that is only open twice a week. I train Gracie University at home all the damn time. Having multiple partners at a school is the best benefit of a school. The instructor is solid but can only do so much during the hour. A lot of lower belts help out but they are far from teachers. That being said, you can train slow as hell at the house and take your time on the details. Plus, I don't know about everyone else but I'm not a dumbass. I can watch something and figure it out. Especially if I have a couple of buddies who train with me. The Combatives program was great when I did it. Besides, as a cop, and someone who actually sees and is involved with real assholes routinely, I can safely say, most don't have any training, especially BJJ. I can't stan d it when folks compare how good bjj training is by only using it against another BJJ guy. Doesn't happen like that in real lfe. Last, I remember in the military I started online school back in the day when it was a "joke" to some. 3 master degrees and a GS15 federal job later, I'm the one laughing. Definitely worked for me just like any online training has worked. Some folks don't get it. Learning is subjective and so is the learning curve. Again, I'm not a dumbass and can watch a video, listen to the instructions and do just fine. Learned to play guitar and cook chili online too. Bjj ain't rocket science. Hell, half the old dudes used VHS and seminars....
Use what works for you and win in life. When I put folks in jail, they never cared if I learned to beat their ass at home, at the dojo, or at the job. They just knew they got rolled up.
Use what works for you and win in life. When I put folks in jail, they never cared if I learned to beat their ass at home, at the dojo, or at the job. They just knew they got rolled up.
Like any self defense system, Gracie combatives has it's strengths and its weaknesses. Having been able to train at a sports school and a certified Gracie training center, I got to see both worlds. Each has allowed me to aquire a great deal of skill in allowing me to defend myself, which is the reason as to why I joined in the first place. I also work in law enforcement (corrections) so I have had real life applications of these skills that I have learned at both the sport and Gracie schools.
Sport School:
Sports Jiu jitsu was geared toward earning points and winning competition, however it offered great techniques and basic principles for self-defense. Standing in base, break fall, guard, kimura, Americana, etc. It was my first exposure to BJJ and I learned techniques for positioning, control and submission. There was not just drilling but live sparring. I believe this sparring gave me an edge in dealing with the chaos of a fight. However, the school did lack in showing us how to defend against strikes and the emphasis was on getting points. I probably could have picked up strike techniques in their MMA or Must Thai systems but this is about BJJ.☺
GTC:
I entered the Gracie School after training in a sports base gym. The instructors could tell I already had training before I joined their class, however, I had to enter the Gracie combatives program regardless. I was fine with this, it had been a few years since I last trained and how often do you get the chance to start over again?
Gracie Combatives is a structured course. It breaks things down into slices and focuses on drills. It is mostly absent of live rolling. My school offered some live "light rolling", I'm sure others do the same. The two focuses of GC is of great benefit. A.) You only have 36 techniques with a few variations to perfect B.) It's geared toward people who don't know how to fight and intended to defend yourself against someone who doesn't know how to fight as well, which is 99% of people.
A con of it is also it's benefit, the punch block series. The emphasis is returning back to stage 1 in the drills. However, a submission opportunity opens itself when returning people from stage 3 and 4 of the punch block series. That submission is the arm triangle but GC doesn't teach this (until master cycle). Although the emphasis in the Gracie philosophy is to "exhaust" your opponent if the opportunity presents itself and you may end a fight quicker by having this technique in your tool belt why not teach it? Thankfully, I learned this at my sports school.
Overall, I can't really knock the program. It does work in real life. Drilling techniques is essential to picking up good habits and it is an effective means of defending yourself.
Sport School:
Sports Jiu jitsu was geared toward earning points and winning competition, however it offered great techniques and basic principles for self-defense. Standing in base, break fall, guard, kimura, Americana, etc. It was my first exposure to BJJ and I learned techniques for positioning, control and submission. There was not just drilling but live sparring. I believe this sparring gave me an edge in dealing with the chaos of a fight. However, the school did lack in showing us how to defend against strikes and the emphasis was on getting points. I probably could have picked up strike techniques in their MMA or Must Thai systems but this is about BJJ.☺
GTC:
I entered the Gracie School after training in a sports base gym. The instructors could tell I already had training before I joined their class, however, I had to enter the Gracie combatives program regardless. I was fine with this, it had been a few years since I last trained and how often do you get the chance to start over again?
Gracie Combatives is a structured course. It breaks things down into slices and focuses on drills. It is mostly absent of live rolling. My school offered some live "light rolling", I'm sure others do the same. The two focuses of GC is of great benefit. A.) You only have 36 techniques with a few variations to perfect B.) It's geared toward people who don't know how to fight and intended to defend yourself against someone who doesn't know how to fight as well, which is 99% of people.
A con of it is also it's benefit, the punch block series. The emphasis is returning back to stage 1 in the drills. However, a submission opportunity opens itself when returning people from stage 3 and 4 of the punch block series. That submission is the arm triangle but GC doesn't teach this (until master cycle). Although the emphasis in the Gracie philosophy is to "exhaust" your opponent if the opportunity presents itself and you may end a fight quicker by having this technique in your tool belt why not teach it? Thankfully, I learned this at my sports school.
Overall, I can't really knock the program. It does work in real life. Drilling techniques is essential to picking up good habits and it is an effective means of defending yourself.
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It's always a strange statement that most BJJ moves are "designed to beat other guys doing BJJ." It's as if it somehow magically doesn't work against people who are worse at BJJ. As if the leg drag hit against high level grapplers won't work on some one who doesn't even know what's happening.
The argument of tailoring your training to be specific for untrained opponents is also weird. Can you imagine hearing the same thing in boxing? It would sound ridiculous. You don't train specifically for untrained fighters, you train to be a good boxer. As a result, untrained people cease to be an issue. Grappling isn't different. If you're a blue belt, you've grappled enough day 1 white belts to know what's up. People love parading out the "punch a black belt, he's a brown belt, again a purple belt, etc." quote to invalidate BJJ training, but I'd wonder why you're not training MMA at that point. The punch defenses in gracie combatives are silly; why not actually learn how to defend punches from someone trying their damndest to take your head off? MMA also teaches you to get up, how to play guard to keep yourself safe, and how to strike effectively (though debatable with some boxing purists). If you can handle another trained MMA fighter, I don't want to blow anyone's mind, but an untrained person isn't going to be more difficult just because they're worse at fighting. If you're opponent doesn't know how to strike on the ground effectively, it doesn't mean your defenses against other MMA fighters are suddenly invalid. It means your job is easier.
Can you imagine if any other pursuit took this approach, how crazy it would be? Can you imagine signing up for a firearms class where the tagline was "Learn to shoot someone who doesn't know how to use a gun!" Would anyone even bother with that? I'd rather learn tactics and best practices for fighting a good gunfighter, because then I know I've covered my bases with shittier ones. Even the ones who don't know what they're doing.
This combatives system is throwing us back to pre-Judo days, when fighting was taught as a series of tricks to apply in very specific circumstances, against opponents who are not resisting at worst, or are pretending to resist (knowing they'll be defeated) at best. This is concerning, because it's an attempt to move backwards in skill level. I try very hard not to be a person that tries to tell others how to live their lives, but if it makes my training worse, then I care. And if GJJ combatives class lures in even 1 genius BJJ mind that could've done something for grappling as a whole, and teaches them to be content with their online headlock defense knowledge, then it has made the art of BJJ (and by association my training) worse. Imagine if Marcelo Garcia had bought into just learning self-defense combatives and said "yep, I'm good with BJJ, nothing else to learn here." How poorer we would all be for that.
The argument of tailoring your training to be specific for untrained opponents is also weird. Can you imagine hearing the same thing in boxing? It would sound ridiculous. You don't train specifically for untrained fighters, you train to be a good boxer. As a result, untrained people cease to be an issue. Grappling isn't different. If you're a blue belt, you've grappled enough day 1 white belts to know what's up. People love parading out the "punch a black belt, he's a brown belt, again a purple belt, etc." quote to invalidate BJJ training, but I'd wonder why you're not training MMA at that point. The punch defenses in gracie combatives are silly; why not actually learn how to defend punches from someone trying their damndest to take your head off? MMA also teaches you to get up, how to play guard to keep yourself safe, and how to strike effectively (though debatable with some boxing purists). If you can handle another trained MMA fighter, I don't want to blow anyone's mind, but an untrained person isn't going to be more difficult just because they're worse at fighting. If you're opponent doesn't know how to strike on the ground effectively, it doesn't mean your defenses against other MMA fighters are suddenly invalid. It means your job is easier.
Can you imagine if any other pursuit took this approach, how crazy it would be? Can you imagine signing up for a firearms class where the tagline was "Learn to shoot someone who doesn't know how to use a gun!" Would anyone even bother with that? I'd rather learn tactics and best practices for fighting a good gunfighter, because then I know I've covered my bases with shittier ones. Even the ones who don't know what they're doing.
This combatives system is throwing us back to pre-Judo days, when fighting was taught as a series of tricks to apply in very specific circumstances, against opponents who are not resisting at worst, or are pretending to resist (knowing they'll be defeated) at best. This is concerning, because it's an attempt to move backwards in skill level. I try very hard not to be a person that tries to tell others how to live their lives, but if it makes my training worse, then I care. And if GJJ combatives class lures in even 1 genius BJJ mind that could've done something for grappling as a whole, and teaches them to be content with their online headlock defense knowledge, then it has made the art of BJJ (and by association my training) worse. Imagine if Marcelo Garcia had bought into just learning self-defense combatives and said "yep, I'm good with BJJ, nothing else to learn here." How poorer we would all be for that.
