No Pasta, Rice or Bread

[AXelator]

How do people even afford to get most their calories from protein and fats. Meat is expensive and for somone who can burn through 3500 calories a day it would cost a fair bit to get that in without using carbs.

 

[mtruitt76]

If anything, a ketogenic diet wouldn't be appropriate for athletes in certain sports during the period of intense training before a competition. I think that endurance athletes would pgreatly benefit from periodic or long-term ketogenic dieting.

Your last statement seems odd. I have always seen people recommend that endurance athletes eat more carbohydrates than other athletes. What are your reasons for saying endurance athletes would benefit from a ketogenic diet?
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[mtruitt76]

While I'm don't even remotely consider myself a high level athlete, I'm 41 and I train at least 2 hrs/day, 3-4 days/wk. I have been on a SKD for 3 mos (with Sinister's help). On Monday I rolled for 2 hrs straight, fasted and felt great. It took me most of those three months to get to that point and required a fair amount of patients, but I am finding the longer I am 'off carbs', the more improvements I see not only in endurance, but in strength and explosiveness (and the better I feel).

My weight loss hasn't been as dramatic as some. I've lost around 12 lbs (229 to 217) and probably have another 20 or so to go. I never thought I would say this, but I don't miss carbs at all. It's far easier to maintain than I ever imagined. Given the health benefits of eating this way, I don't see myself ever going back, unless its to implement CKD.

Not trying to be argumentative, but with a 3 month adjustment period and only a 12 lb weight loss what do you see as the benefits of the ketogenic over a more traditional diet?

I mean you could easily loss 12 lbs in 3 months just my monitoring your caloric intake or by increasing exercise. I guess I don

 

[Zorbario]

How do people even afford to get most their calories from protein and fats. Meat is expensive and for somone who can burn through 3500 calories a day it would cost a fair bit to get that in without using carbs.

Im struggling with this too. As you are from UK, i will suggest Lidl to you. The meat there can be ridiculously cheap, i bought 600g lean chopped steak for

 

[Starck]

This dude at the gym was telling me he lost 73lbs in 71 days by pretty much not eating pasta, rice and bread. I knew he wasn't lying because I saw him in the gym before and he looks like a different person. I tried it last week and it's not really all that hard to do, but I think I ate too much fruit. I'll say I dropped about five pounds of course I was expecting more but I think I need to tweak some things to get the real results I want. I hit the gym up about 4 times a week I'll hit the elliptical for 30 minutes and then hit the weights and one Saturday and Sundays Ill play basketball from 6-10. Right now I'm 5'10'' 280lbs. I want to get to 220. Anyone have any pointers for me?

I've lost 40 pounds over the course of 9 weeks and eat tons of bread. It's all about setting a daily caloric deficit and throwing some exercise in for good measure.

 

[AXelator]

Im struggling with this too. As you are from UK, i will suggest Lidl to you. The meat there can be ridiculously cheap, i bought 600g lean chopped steak for

 

[blank1]

Im struggling with this too. As you are from UK, i will suggest Lidl to you. The meat there can be ridiculously cheap, i bought 600g lean chopped steak for

 

[K Flow]

Eggs are dirt cheap and are very keto friendly. 80/20 ground beef is pretty cheap as well and is very keto friendly.

+1. Fattier cuts of meat are generally cheaper at grocery stores. Chicken Drumsticks and thighs also have a considerable amount of fat and are dirt cheap.

 

[Steakeater**]

This dude at the gym was telling me he lost 73lbs in 71 days by pretty much not eating pasta, rice and bread.

Or any food at all for that matter

 

[Sinister]

Your last statement seems odd. I have always seen people recommend that endurance athletes eat more carbohydrates than other athletes. What are your reasons for saying endurance athletes would benefit from a ketogenic diet?
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While it is true there isn't a high amount of documented medical study done on athletes utilizing ketogenic diets, there's also not that much on athletes period. There are some involving people who exercise, but with competitive athletes much more attention is needed to small details.

The notion behind endurance athletes benefitting from ketogenic nutrition is actually evident in anthropology, as many cultures whom existed on very low carbohydrate intake were also very very physically active, and there's plenty of biological evidence of the efficiency of fat as a primary fuel source for the body, while sufficient protein intake protects against muscle wasting. There's not really anything that suggests otherwise, save for the modern viewpoints, which are that glucose is necessary. On some levels it is, there will always be some glucose in the bloodstream or we'd die. But to say it's necessary in high intake on a daily basis for athletes simply isn't true. Common practice, yes, but not a rule.

Not trying to be argumentative, but with a 3 month adjustment period and only a 12 lb weight loss what do you see as the benefits of the ketogenic over a more traditional diet?

I mean you could easily loss 12 lbs in 3 months just my monitoring your caloric intake or by increasing exercise. I guess I don

 

[Ryuu18]

Im struggling with this too. As you are from UK, i will suggest Lidl to you. The meat there can be ridiculously cheap, i bought 600g lean chopped steak for

 

[OneMoreRoll]

Not trying to be argumentative, but with a 3 month adjustment period and only a 12 lb weight loss what do you see as the benefits of the ketogenic over a more traditional diet?

I mean you could easily loss 12 lbs in 3 months just my monitoring your caloric intake or by increasing exercise. I guess I don’t understand why you would go with a ketogenic diet unless it would produce greater weight loss or superior performance than a more traditional balanced diet.
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I believe the simple calories-in vs calories-out hypothesis is in large part a fallacy. As Sinister mentioned, I've been down the calorie reduction path before (and I already get a significant amount of exercise) and have had very little success. While it may work for some, I view the body as a complex system that tries to maintain equilibrium. If you mess with one side of the equation, the body has a number of tools at its disposal to balance the other side. In other words the body can compensate for a caloric deficit by reducing energy levels, motivation, body temperature, and general activity and by increasing appetite. Obviously, a caloric deficit for a long enough time will ultimately result in weight loss, but this is not sustainable (at least for me). I've gone for 2 months on 1500 cal/day and not lost fat. I also used to race bicycles and would train for 10-15 hrs/wk and not loose weight. KD is something that is sustainable for me and has resulted both fat loss and muscle gain. Other tangible benefits (again for me) have been more stable energy levels, improved endurance, increased strength, and improved digestion. But perhaps the biggest tangible benefit has been "freedom from food". I used to have to eat every few hours or suffer from headaches, crankiness, hunger, and generally feeling like crap. KD enables your body to efficiently use and mobilize fat as an energy source. Now I can go 24 hrs w/o food (experimenting with IF) or train for 2 hrs in a fasted state, as I mentioned above. If I miss a meal, its no big deal. That I love. Then of course there are all intangible health benefits that come from the reducing blood sugar and insulin response, and increasing consumption of saturated fats.

So bottom line... I feel better, perform better, and research indicates I am healthier. I enjoy eating this way and I am still losing fat (yes slowly) while increasing muscle. Plus, I know I can increase my rate of fat loss by reducing dairy, doing more IF, or adding strength work. This way of eating is something I will continue to experiment with but, at this point I certainly see no reason to not stay with it indefinitely.

 

[Midnighter]

I've given up bread.

Except for cakes, cupcakes, and donuts.

How much weight should I expect to lose?

 

[Chulo**]

I would rather give up on cakes, cupcakes, and donuts and not bread if that's the case.

You're not gonna lose much (sike you ain't losing shit).

 

[Midnighter]

I'm gonna eat all the cake I want and I'm gonna lose weight.

I'll show you, I'LL SHOW ALL OF YOU!

 

[redjako]

If your working out...You need carbohydrates still. Cutting them out is ok (if unrealistic) for relatively sedentary person, less acceptable for a moderate athlete like yourself but totally un-doable and unhealthy for anyone engaging in serious athletic training.

"If your working out CONSISTENTLY" I would say.

 

[threelions]

I did a similar thing following a book called "Breaking the Viscous Cycle" when I had Colitis. I dropped a lot of weight quickly and my colitis disappeared. So I can't give an expert opinion like Sinister and the rest but I can say from experience it works for weight loss and seems to have a beneficial effect on auto immune diseases too. I wasn't training much at the time because of sickness so can't say if it would effect that at all.

 

[mtruitt76]

While it is true there isn't a high amount of documented medical study done on athletes utilizing ketogenic diets, there's also not that much on athletes period. There are some involving people who exercise, but with competitive athletes much more attention is needed to small details.

I am a little confused by this statement. Not sure what an undocumented study would be? Are you talking about individual cases or ancedotal evidence? I am by no means a nutrition expert or even as educated as I need to be, but I just don't know of any one who endorses a ketogenic diet for athletes besides you. Just curious if any one else i.e. other nutritionists share your view point on the ketogenic diet.

I have always dismissed ketogenic diets as a viable choice for athletes after Kyle McDonald said that they were not appropriate for athletes. I may be wrong but, I thought he was kind of a leading authority on ketogenic diets.

The notion behind endurance athletes benefitting from ketogenic nutrition is actually evident in anthropology, as many cultures whom existed on very low carbohydrate intake were also very very physically active, and there's plenty of biological evidence of the efficiency of fat as a primary fuel source for the body, while sufficient protein intake protects against muscle wasting.

I think you have to be careful using anthropology to support a diet since we are unable to precisely determine their calories, macro ratios, activity level, or their health. There are quite a few things that you can survive doing and eating, but I think what most people are interested in when discussing diets is what will allow you to best thrive.

There's not really anything that suggests otherwise, save for the modern viewpoints, which are that glucose is necessary. On some levels it is, there will always be some glucose in the bloodstream or we'd die. But to say it's necessary in high intake on a daily basis for athletes simply isn't true. Common practice, yes, but not a rule.

Will touch on this later have to go to bjj class.

Okay back from bjj. I know you are pretty knowledgeable, or at least seem to be, about a lot of the chemical processes of the body. I know that the atp cycle can be fuel by fat, but I thought that this process required oxygen and was generally less efficient than the use of carbohydrates. From what I understand, and I am by no means very knowledgeable in the subject, if you are using fat to power the atp cycle then you won't be able maintain the same intensity as you would if carbohydrates are being used to fuel the atp cycle.

 

[Dogstarman]

Mtruitt, do you know that anthropologists can get very close to determining an ancient diet? Where did you get your information that anthropologists cannot determine diets of our Paleolithic ancestors? Also there are recent studies done on modern hunter gather societies that describe these types of ketogenic diets. Where hunter and gathers would run for hours looking for game on just nuts, roots, tree bark, and animal proteins and fats.

Again my question to you is provide information that these anthropologists are wrong and provide some information where you can dispute ketogenic diets.

Also have you experimented with ketosis? I have and after the initial shock to your body you can sustain it. While I do include a cheat day now, every other week or so I am able to train on a slow carb, low carb diet. I don't even eat dairy. I may includes legumes and beans though. My energy levels and even emotions seem to be more neutral than the highs and lows of my carbo diets. I am going to start testing my blood sugar levels in the next month. I want to know if this type of eating keeps my insulin levels steady as well.

 

[mtruitt76]

Mtruitt, do you know that anthropologists can get very close to determining an ancient diet? Where did you get your information that anthropologists cannot determine diets of our Paleolithic ancestors? Also there are recent studies done on modern hunter gather societies that describe these types of ketogenic diets. Where hunter and gathers would run for hours looking for game on just nuts, roots, tree bark, and animal proteins and fats.

I know that anthropologist can get very close to determining an ancient diet in terms of what they ate, what constituted the majority of their diet, but they can't tell you daily caloric intake or the macro percentages.

Also I realize that there are societies that have ketogenic diets and that you can run for hours on a ketogenic diet. However, this doesn't prove that a ketogenic diet is a superior diet for athletic endeavors.

Again my question to you is provide information that these anthropologists are wrong and provide some information where you can dispute ketogenic diets.

I think you are misinterpreting my intentions. I am not trying to dispute ketogenic diets. I am generally interested in learning more about ketogenic diets. I know that body builders are able to hit very low body fat percentages with low carb and ketogenic diets. As a bjj competitor I am very interested in getting my body fat as low as possible since this would allow me to be stronger for my weight class. I can get in the 7% range on a traditional diet and I don't think I can get it any lower with my current diet.

I figure I could possibly get it lower with a different dietary approach, but I obviously don't want a diet that might give me a lower body fat % at the cost of performance and substandard training. So I am just making a critical evaluation of ketogenic diets before I embark on one.

Also have you experimented with ketosis? I have and after the initial shock to your body you can sustain it. While I do include a cheat day now, every other week or so I am able to train on a slow carb, low carb diet. I don't even eat dairy. I may includes legumes and beans though. My energy levels and even emotions seem to be more neutral than the highs and lows of my carbo diets. I am going to start testing my blood sugar levels in the next month. I want to know if this type of eating keeps my insulin levels steady as well.

I have never done a ketogenic diet. When I diet to cut weight I cut almost all my calories from carbs in an effort to maintain strength and muscle, but I never have gotten below 100g of carbs a day. I do notice a difference in energy levels during these times. It is nothing drastic, but my training intensity and level are better when I am at my normal carb intake of 300g per day.

Again I am just trying to learn more about ketogenic diets and if they are an approach worth trying. I just try to understand the pros and cons of something before I make it a part of my training.