Novel Side Control Escape by Pedro Sauer

[EGDM]

Treating all techniques as equally valid is one of the hallmark features of martial arts that don't work well against resisting opponents. I see this a lot with Aikido.

Totally agree. I did Aikido for 12 years and trained with many of the world's most senior instructors. What Sauer is doing here is something I saw constantly. He's got a valid technical idea, though perhaps narrowly valid, the presentation of which is elevated to a level of near-mysticism by his social standing in our community. No one wants to be "that guy who smashed a 65 year old coral belt", so he can get away with a lot of things which would cultivate more skepticism coming from anyone else.

I am NOT saying that Sauer is bullshiting us or that this idea has no value. It's just that his seniority leads us to under-examine the boundary conditions on where this idea is applicable. Basically, the more "secret" a technique seems, the higher the level of skepticism that should be applied. Other venerable BJJ coaches like Fabio Gurgel, Cavalcanti, Renzo, Danaher, etc., who have more of a competitive focus, should perhaps get more benefit of the doubt since there are readily-available examples of elite athletes using their lessons (which is why nothing they teach is "novel").

Were Roger Gracie an active competitor today, he would wreck all these new trends with basic old school Gracie jiu jitsu principles like he did for years. You better put some respect on it.

Kron and Roger both won with and teach exceptionally clean traditional fundamentals tested under full pressure. All we have to do is look at their matches to see the efficacy. No one is disrespecting that.

 

[Balto]

That's a whole lot of wishy washy paragraphs to say you or may not get caught with this escape. Regarding your Danaher speech, Kron Gracie slept your boy Garry Tonon with old school Rickson Gracie jiu jitsu. One of very few people who subbed everyone on the way to ADCC Gold.

Were Roger Gracie an active competitor today, he would wreck all these new trends with basic old school Gracie jiu jitsu principles like he did for years. You better put some respect on it.

We definitely do respect Roger and Kron for their achievements. My coach literally studied Kron to prepare the Atos guys for potential matchups in ADCC 2013. Kron was a beast competitor and totally respected for it.

It's worth noting what they prepared for though. They prepared for his closed guard. They did not prepare for his side control escape invisible details.

Do you have any examples of him using these side control escapes to win matches? I'll take a look if you have them, but I do not remember them being relevant in the matches.

 

[Balto]

I am NOT saying that Sauer is bullshiting us or that this idea has no value. It's just that his seniority leads us to under-examine the boundary conditions on where this idea is applicable. Other venerable BJJ coaches like Fabio Gurgel, Cavalcanti, Renzo, Danaher, etc., don't seem to have any problems providing direct examples of competitive champions using their lessons, which is why nothing they teach is "novel".

Exactly.

We've both trained in TMA before so we have seen this happen. It's not a good path to go down.

The whole marketing concept behind "invisible jiu jitsu" is that there are a set of hidden old school details that have mysteriously become lost with time. And the ones pushing it just happen to be the most senior guys who personally knew the founder. But these details aren't reemerging in competition again even though they have been more widely disseminated at this point, and the other senior guys who did not happen to personally know the founder don't seem to put much stock in them.

A lot of techniques Royce used in UFC 1 aren't seen much either. Did we lose the invisible jiu jitsu there, or did jiu jitsu for MMA just move forward in the time period since?

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

A lot of techniques Royce used in UFC 1 aren't seen much either. Did we lose the invisible jiu jitsu there, or did jiu jitsu for MMA just move forward in the time period since?

There genuinely is valuable stuff that's being forgotten from the vale tudo era, IMHO, but it's because the rules changed to outlaw a bunch of it, not because we passed into a fallen age or whatever.

 

[Balto]

There genuinely is valuable stuff that's being forgotten from the vale tudo era, IMHO, but it's because the rules changed to outlaw a bunch of it, not because we passed into a fallen age or whatever.

I agree the rule changes are behind some of it.

I was more referring to things like the side kick stomp to double leg entry. Also heel strikes to the kidney from closed guard were oddly illegal for some time, but they've been made legal again many places and you still don't see them coming back.