Official Women's Divisions Discussion Thread #16

[BigMuffler]

Okay cybernetics, you win. It's worse to break your opponent's orbital and get a draw from one of the judges in a great fight, which a significant minority thought you won, than to do nothing effectual against the same opponent and have her practice striking on you in a boring fight everybody acknowledges you lost.

 

[prometheus]

So, finally the hype train gets de-railed in very spectacular fashion.
While I'm a big fan of WMMA, I've been having a hard time trying to get through all the shit that's been talked about Rousey, by her and those around her.

I really didn't think Holly would be the one to do it, though I did think she'd have a chance to at least make it somewhat competitive while it lasted.

It was a really odd experience watching this fight, it struck me as having many parallels with the Brock vs Cain fight.

Brock riding high on the hype train with a (to me at least) obnoxious persona, loved by some and detested by others, used to bullying and intimidating smaller opponenents.

As soon as Ronda started stumbling about in the Octagon last night, it was like a flashback to how Brock literally fell apart against Cain.

Not that they both simply lost, they both seemed to unravel in front of our eyes.

I watched it in the pub, the atmosphere was weird, despite the pub being at full capacity, once the fight started, aside from the occasional whoop or cheer, the place was almost totally silent, hard to know who was really rooting for Ronda and who was just waiting to see if it were possible she might actually lose.

When the k.o came, I must admit, i went a bit nutsand I for vertain wasn't the only one.

I don't normally feel that partisan about fights but in this one, as in the Brock vs Cain fight I was just so sick of all the bullshit and so elated to see it all come crashing down

What a fight.

 

[Drake]

Miesha won 2 rounds in both fights. Lets see, was McMann almost submitted by Tate? Yes. Was Rin in danger at all from Tate? No. Game. Set. Match. Rin > McMann.

Thats worse. McMann should have won but still found a way to throw the match away. Rin just needed 2 rounds to warm up because it was her debut and she struggles with self doubt. Still at the end of the fight Rin was winning.

Rin did NOT win a single round against Miesha. I don't know why you think this or why you think it matters. Sara did better against Miesha because Sara is better than Rin. There's no way around it. Also...when was Sara almost submitted...??

Spoiler

& Miesha is better than both.

 

[Sherdoggy]

What do you think about this perspective?

I think talking about the game plan is giving Jackson/Winklejohn too much credit strategy-wise and not enough credit to Holly Holm talent-wise. As Rousey pointed out, they coached Sarah Kaufmann before the Rousey loss. Holm is the perfect opponent for Rousey. From boxing she had the defensive movement and learned how to use her big frame to stay away and minimize hits taken and while still doing damage. And - she's strong. A lot stronger than I think anybody, including myself, gave her credit for. Rousey had her arms around Holm, and Rousey ended up on her back on the bottom. And Rousey had Holm on the ground at one point and was in the process of going for an armbar and Holm got away.

I think one of the reasons it seems "gameplan-ish" is because Holm had a split decision with Raquel Pennington and a decision against Marion Reneau. Making Holm look like a mediocre talent. But Holm is super cautious and stayed well away most of the time from flyweights that she fought in Legacy. Rousey forced Holm to display her full talent by continuously pressing the action. Also, unrelated to Holm's game plan, Rousey not blocking or avoiding the straight left - not even apparently seeing it coming - was perfect for Holm. And the fact that she was moving forward the whole time gave more power to Holm's punches, particularly the last one that had Rousey wobbled right before the kick.

 

[curryjunkie]

well after a good 7 hours sleep ive decided cybernetics was talking crap after all:icon_lol:
kristens tweet about the frequency of rondas fights would stand up.....if they werent usually over in 30 seconds.
and no, esparza could have had 5 years to prepare for joanna, she was stil going to get smashed.
have you guys seen the ronda shoop thread? its positively biblical :icon_lol::icon_lol:

 

[Drake]

well after a good 7 hours sleep ive decided cybernetics was talking crap after all:icon_lol:
kristens tweet about the frequency of rondas fights would stand up.....if they werent usually over in 30 seconds.
and no, esparza could have had 5 years to prepare for joanna, she was stil going to get smashed.
have you guys seen the ronda shoop thread? its positively biblical :icon_lol::icon_lol:

Cybernetics is delusional. I'd say he's a troll but he seems genuine...sadly.

& yes, the shoop thread is great

 

[JarlSkuld]

I`d be down for Nakai vs. McMann...and it would settle an unusual debate.

Jarl

P.S. @Leto1776....I can only read the Cybernetics posts that people quote. But, yeah, Leto has the best advice.

 

[cybernetics]

Cybernetics is delusional. I'd say he's a troll but he seems genuine...sadly.

& yes, the shoop thread is great

I dont know why you guys disagree with me about everything. Homeless, I told you Mcmann would lose badly before the Nunes fight and you guys just said I was some wack job.

Lets be honest. Rin beats everyone that McMann has beat in the UFC.

ANd one last question. Do you believe McMann beat Murphy? If you think Murphy lost that fight it is only because of McMann bias. McMann was actually Ko'd by elbows in the 3rd round against Murphy but she was face down and woke up quickly.

Nakai has never been hurt that badly in 17 fights. You guys need to give Rin credit. Just because Rin does gravure and maybe JAV doesn’t mean anything. In Japan it's okay for top stars to do JAV. Members of AKB48 do JAV all the time AND former champions HIROKO and Hisae have also done JAV. But they dont get near the hate for some reason.


JAV is perfectly fine in JAPAN and Rin gets hate simply because of the western bias here on sherdog and specifically this thread.

Everyone still is holding onto McMann being a elite fighter simply because of Wikipedia and credentials.

 

[leto1776]

Wait, there are people who don't have cybernetics on ignore yet?

 

[Drake]

I dont know why you guys disagree with me about everything. Homeless, I told you Mcmann would lose badly before the Nunes fight and you guys just said I was some wack job.

Lets be honest. Rin beats everyone that McMann has beat in the UFC.

ANd one last question. Do you believe McMann beat Murphy? If you think Murphy lost that fight it is only because of McMann bias. McMann was actually Ko'd by elbows in the 3rd round against Murphy but she was face down and woke up quickly.

Nakai has never been hurt that badly in 17 fights. You guys need to give Rin credit. Just because Rin does gravure and maybe JAV doesn’t mean anything. In Japan it's okay for top stars to do JAV. Members of AKB48 do JAV all the time AND former champions HIROKO and Hisae have also done JAV. But they dont get near the hate for some reason.


JAV is perfectly fine in JAPAN and Rin gets hate simply because of the western bias here on sherdog and specifically this thread.

Everyone still is holding onto McMann being a elite fighter simply because of Wikipedia and credentials.

I think there was one thing I agreed with you on...don't remember what it was though. We called you a "wack job" because you said you loved McMann & made a bunch of threads about her making you look bipolar or like she bullied you in high school or something.

You had to throw in that UFC part... Because Evinger beats Rin pretty badly. I think Murphy would beat her too.

Well McMann literally did beat Murphy. Was I worried she wouldn't win? Yes. Would I have scored it for her if I was a judge...probably not...would have to re-watch. Depends on what you look at as a judge. She was actually KO'd by elbows? How do you know this? She wasn't KO'd if the fight didn't get stopped & she woke up quickly...

Yeah, it's impressive she hasn't been hurt in 17 fights but who were those fights against exactly...? You just can't justify her being a top BW... & I had to look up what JAV meant. That is irrelevant to this so i'm just going to ignore it. She can do whatever she wants outside of fighting.

I don't even know why I typed all that...you think fucking Larissa Pacheco beats Sara

 

[Hotei]

I've never understood fans who harp on any possible explanation for a fighter's bad performance as an 'excuse'

Then you have to think about it a little more. It's not that hard.
When you say she lost because she looked past Holm you're not providing an explanation, you're making excuses. You're refusing the reality of what we saw (Ronda fighting like always does) creating a fantasy scenario not based on reported news or technical analysis.

Do you call out people who say Holm had 'octagon jitters' against Pennington?

Yes.

People think Nunes has a chance with her boxing, but Holly would tool her.

yeah like she did with that below par bruiser Pennington...oh wait.

 

[JarlSkuld]

Bottom line: Danielle West beat Rin Nakai (at least once). Different division, I know, but The Honey Badger was never a top ranked fighter. I think Rin was lucky to get a wrestler with zero KO power in her UFC debut. If she had fought someone like Nunes, DeRandamie, or even Kaufman, I think Rin would get brutalized in a way that would make people feel like turning off their TV sets. Rin matches up a bit better against other grapplers or fighters who should be fighting at 125. Thus, I think McMann vs. Nakai might actually be an interesting match up (not as fascinating as my dream match up of Dudieva vs. Nakai though).

Jarl

 

[TinoSpezza]

Not only, as we know, her fights, generally, lasted less than a minute, / weren't a war, but:
2 fights in 2012
2 fights in 2013
2 fights in 2014
3 fights in 2015

Granted, women don't have as much testosterone so they might not exactly be able to replicate Cerrone's schedule, but still...
What does "too often" mean then?
Is 2.25 fights a year supposed to be "too often" for an mma woman champ?

 

[David0009]

Hello to everybody. I,m David and new one at your forum.

 

[BigMuffler]

Then you have to think about it a little more. It's not that hard.
When you say she lost because she looked past Holm you're not providing an explanation, you're making excuses. You're refusing the reality of what we saw (Ronda fighting like always does) creating a fantasy scenario not based on reported news or technical analysis.

I said 'and/or' meaning MAYBE she looked past Holm, not that she necessarily did, as a footnote to my main explanation that she's been training grappling less. Which is something I heard and not 'a fantasy scenario not based on reported news'.

I don't think she actually tried to take Holm down until halfway through the first when she was already beat up, before that she was trying to box. I wouldn't say that's the way she always fights, it was more the same way she fought against Bethe.

Like I said in the original post maybe it wouldn't have changed the outcome at all, but it's not exactly far fetched to think she 'might' have looked past Holm given all the contributing factors.

 

[BigMuffler]

Not only, as we know, her fights, generally, lasted less than a minute, / weren't a war, but:
2 fights in 2012
2 fights in 2013
2 fights in 2014
3 fights in 2015

Granted, women don't have as much testosterone so they might not exactly be able to replicate Cerrone's schedule, but still...
What does "too often" mean then?
Is 2.25 fights a year supposed to be "too often" for an mma woman champ?

I don't agree with the tweet but if there was validity to it, it would obviously be due to the two training camps being close together rather than the actual fights themselves.

If she was burned out though it would almost certainly be more due to the other things she was doing in media rather than training IMO.

 

[thatdude21601]

I was thinking Kristin's tweet was about Ronda being on the road promoting the fights, doing TV, radio, photo sets, etc. McGregor openly complains about his insane UFC schedule messing with his training and home life.

 

[Drake]

Hello to everybody. I,m David and new one at your forum.

 

[Xuh]

Alice Ardelean vs Daniela Kortmann (GMC 7)

Thanks for posting that one - I saw the result and raised an eyebrow a week or two or whenever it was ago.
Kortmann was booked for Invicta earlier this year before visa issues nixed her bout. (at least american border control are keeping all these dangerous foreign WMMA fighters from destroying america, eh?)
She has a Judo background & I saw some mags in German promoting her as the 'German Ronda Rousey' (wonder if they'd still do that :icon_lol: )
I felt like backing her based on her super-dorky fightfinder pic (plus euro solidarity) but thought Invicta were throwing her to the wolves vs Aldritch already.

& watching that fight - wow, they really would have been. 0 standup skillz (and gave up even trying to take down early). Every punch wiffed air while her opponent (who I guess has some boxing background) appeared to land every punch, making her a punching bag & bloody mess from the start to the stoppage in the 3rd. & that opponent was 0-2 going in!
hey, maybe the 'German Ronda Rousey' tag still fits, then.... :icon_chee

 

[Charlie77]

I don't think Ronda was looking past HH. Holly was just the first fighter to use distance and reach against her effectively and she exposed Ronda's lack of head movement. Even with that being said Ronda had Holm in a couple of bad spots and Holly worked herself out of them. A lot of people questioned Holly's ground game prior to the fight, but she proved that she has the skills to keep the fight standing where she's the most dangerous.

It's really a crime what Edmond did to Ronda however and how he bragged up her striking skills without improving some of her basic boxing. Ronda knew that striking was the one thing she needed to improve in her game and she trusted a boxing coach to take care of her and he let her down.