Out of the 4 GOATS, is Fedor the only one who deliberately engaged his opponents at their strengths?

[markg171]

Out of everyone, all I know is Jones is only guy in the GOAT conversation that has ever came out and said he wanted to beat guys at their strength.

With Fedor it seem as time went by it became more obvious Fedor never had much of a game plan from the start. I don't think he ever once thought this guy is a great kick boxer and I'm going to teach him lesson by beating him using kickboxing.

The Fedor fans have been telling us for years that Fedor began striking with people over his previous grappling focused fighting because he couldn't grapple as well as he aged.

You can't have it both ways that he was striking with guys to prove he could AND that he was striking with them because he had to.

And this isn't even getting into the fact that we've also been told for forever that he has brittle hands and so was constantly breaking his hands. Shouldn't he be grappling more then if striking so much is hurting him?

The reason why none of that is coherent or flows is because you're absolutely right that there wasn't any actual gameplan. Fedor's just striking with guys cause fights start standing lol.

 

[jitzmonkey]

If PEDS were legal then it's not cheating


Also if you can't tell wether a fight was real or fixed than you don't know shit about fighting

While I'm not contending that any of the following fighters have thrown a fight, it would be easy and tough to spot if you know your opponent's strengths.

-Eddie Alvarez knew that Conor had a huge/fast right hand and wasn't the best counter wrestler; so of course he circled to the right at range with the big puncher instead of shooting and brawling.
-We gotta believe that Dariush shooting from a mile away against Edson Barboza (a great kicker with nasty MT knees,) Andy Wang trying to stand and bang, Zingano rushing a high level judo player, etc...

That's how I'd throw a fight.

All that said, you holding up ok bro?

Eh, the whole “PRIDE fixed fights” thing is silly and overblown. By pretty much all accounts, there was only shenanigans like that in very early PRIDE events (there was at UFC events too), and PRIDE fights were all legit for quite awhile before Fedor appeared on the scene there.

Yeah, the whole reply was +/- tongue and cheek.

Fedor was great at using his very specific strengths to engage his opponents in ranges that where they'd feel comfortable.
2 that come to mind were using his superior speed and ability to penetrate to out strike Cro Cop by controlling the distance and not allowing the Croatian to counter. The 2nd being able to tough out the Randleman ultraplex, reverse, and sub the wrestler.

 

[Plissken]

GSP wrestled with wrestlers all the time (since they dominated ww back then), struck with Diaz, BJ, and Condit. Jones did the same, wrestled with a lot of wrestlers went tow to toe with strikers, didn't really shy away from the ground game with the few lhw's that were bjj black belts. Mighty Mouse did the same. Fedor's downfall was also engaging someone at their strength in Werdum so it's not always the best strategy.

 

[Royce's Gi]

Fedor should be the main forum and everything else a sub forum of Fedor discussion

Whole Forum should be called FERDOG!

FEDORG?

 

[mixmastermo]

The Fedor fans have been telling us for years that Fedor began striking with people over his previous grappling focused fighting because he couldn't grapple as well as he aged.

You can't have it both ways that he was striking with guys to prove he could AND that he was striking with them because he had to.

And this isn't even getting into the fact that we've also been told for forever that he has brittle hands and so was constantly breaking his hands. Shouldn't he be grappling more then if striking so much is hurting him?

The reason why none of that is coherent or flows is because you're absolutely right that there wasn't any actual gameplan. Fedor's just striking with guys cause fights start standing lol.

Good points

I've made many contrarian comments in Fedor threads over the years. To be clear, I fully respect him as a fighter, it's his fans that I argue with because of their detachment from reality.

IMO if he had retired after beating Arlovski, he could have called it a career where he beat the who's who at HW and he would be the undeniable HW GOAT.

However, like that saying goes, you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

He stayed in the sport too long and people started to take his legacy apart. He was the best of his era, no question, but that era is long gone and the talent evolved.

 

[Oddmonster]

Spent just over half of the 1st round grappling crocop, just under half of the 2nd round, and 4 minutes of the 5 minute 3rd round

Numbers are a funny thing, and as you show here, you can juggle them to make them fit your narrative.


Round 1 - CroCop either fell or tried to take Fedor down - that is how they ended up on the ground. Fedor did not initiate or hunt for a takedown to be safe from the striking.

Round 2 - Fedor trips CroCop when there is 2 out of 5 minutes left - and CroCop is the one initiating the clinch..

Round 3 - CroCop tries to take Fedor down, and gets reversed. Fedor did not initiate the takedown to hide from the striking.

Do you watch that fight and come away with the feeling that Fedor, who was pressing the action on the feet, was afraid of standing with Crorop?

 

[Oddmonster]

Out of everyone, all I know is Jones is only guy in the GOAT conversation that has ever came out and said he wanted to beat guys at their strength.

With Fedor it seem as time went by it became more obvious Fedor never had much of a game plan from the start. I don't think he ever once thought this guy is a great kick boxer and I'm going to teach him lesson by beating him using kickboxing.

Yea, Jon really proved that in the Gane fight, right?

On Fedor I agree. Fedor simply did not care what his opponents strengths was.

 

[moreorless87]

I think by the point Fedor was in Pride actual "fixed" fights were a thing of the past, I spose some might say Ogawa vs Leko but I think that was more Leko having a lack of prep and Ogawa had previously dropped Goodridge so he did have power.

If your talking biased refs then I'd argue Fedor was if anything negatively effected by that, you could argue vs Mirko the ref was a bit too keen to stand up the match in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Generally Fedor was not really Prides golden boy until the very very end plus of course he never had any close decisions in Pride which could have benefited from judging in his favour.

 

[moreorless87]

The Fedor fans have been telling us for years that Fedor began striking with people over his previous grappling focused fighting because he couldn't grapple as well as he aged.

You can't have it both ways that he was striking with guys to prove he could AND that he was striking with them because he had to.

And this isn't even getting into the fact that we've also been told for forever that he has brittle hands and so was constantly breaking his hands. Shouldn't he be grappling more then if striking so much is hurting him?

The reason why none of that is coherent or flows is because you're absolutely right that there wasn't any actual gameplan. Fedor's just striking with guys cause fights start standing lol.

I would say in his prime Fedor did tend to somewhat take matches as they came, I think its clear he did do some gameplanning(Nog 3 especially) but also did let the fights flow as he thought best on the night. I think that was actually a big strenght for him personally because it meant he could adapt more to matches as they happened, you could point to say something like GSP vs Serra 1 and say the warning signs were there before George got hurt, his gameplan to avoid the ground entirely meant he didnt have the threat of the takedown to keep Matt from getting close and brawling which wasnt his strenght. It took until the rematch for George to switch gameplans, take Serra down ASAP and work him over on the ground.

I think you could also argue the weakness of that mindset was it didnt work so well when he started to drop off and started to have narrower strenghts. By 2010 I do think his grappling was clearly in decline and his judgement wasnt as strong but he was still taking the "take the fight were it goes" kind of mindset.

We didnt really see it tested against elite opponents but I think actually the way he fought post SF but pre break actually seemed like he was focused a bit more on maximising his strenghts at that point. Focusing on being more a powerful KO artist who picked his punches and stuffed grappling.

When he came back post break though he was back to the older style and his striking was also in steeper decline as he lost speed/timing/chin with age.

 

[Whitestallion]

Fedor was a very very well rounded HW. He was a true MMA fighter a decade before any other MMA fighters happened at HW.

Jon Jones fought Glover in the clinch, took down DC multiple times and out boxed him in a phone booth, stood with Alex, Dominick.

Jon Jones is the GOAT if you don't talk about PED

If you do talk PED

its

GSP
Fedor
(Jones/Silva)

 

[USADA&NYSAC]

If you believe that Fedor reversed that bodylock takedown & landed in The Law's half-guard by slightly touching the top of the rope with the back of his hand, and the cord doesn't move or anything, then you're a drooling NPC.

Matt linland was a massive middle weight , I'm sure he walked around 230, that was an underrated fight. Fedor was a beast.

 

[markg171]

I would say in his prime Fedor did tend to somewhat take matches as they came, I think its clear he did do some gameplanning(Nog 3 especially) but also did let the fights flow as he thought best on the night. I think that was actually a big strenght for him personally because it meant he could adapt more to matches as they happened, you could point to say something like GSP vs Serra 1 and say the warning signs were there before George got hurt, his gameplan to avoid the ground entirely meant he didnt have the threat of the takedown to keep Matt from getting close and brawling which wasnt his strenght. It took until the rematch for George to switch gameplans, take Serra down ASAP and work him over on the ground.

I think you could also argue the weakness of that mindset was it didnt work so well when he started to drop off and started to have narrower strenghts. By 2010 I do think his grappling was clearly in decline and his judgement wasnt as strong but he was still taking the "take the fight were it goes" kind of mindset.

We didnt really see it tested against elite opponents but I think actually the way he fought post SF but pre break actually seemed like he was focused a bit more on maximising his strenghts at that point. Focusing on being more a powerful KO artist who picked his punches and stuffed grappling.

When he came back post break though he was back to the older style and his striking was also in steeper decline as he lost speed/timing/chin with age.

Fedor's style of not really having a set gameplan and just being ready to fight wherever also was a bit of a benefit in Pride where you were often matched up on much shorter timelines, fights were replaced on the fly that night, and there could be multi-fights on a given night. Extensive gameplans were often a complete waste of time.

There's a reason why most of the rest of their champions were explosive fast twitch guys too. Wand, Shogun, Gomi, etc. are all guys who likewise could thrive in the moment of the fight. It's what was needed in that environment, even before getting into how fights were scored.

It's also likely a good part of most of their downfalls too. Yes there's the age and prime questions, but switching up to practically all of your opponents now having 3-4 months and entire camps dedicated to being prepared for your exact tendencies is obviously going to also mean you get successfully caught by them more. Back then they often literally were just catching you as they're just throwing in the moment, like Fujita on Fedor, but afterwards there's a lot more guy prepared to do X when you do Y.

I mean, just look at what Bader said after he KO'd Fedor the first time:

Bader figured that Emelianenko would be wary of his wrestling, so he practiced the very hook that he used to knock Emelianenko out over and over and over in practice.

“You know what? I saw that moment,” Bader said. “You can ask my team. We practiced that moment a lot. I thought that punch was going to do it. You can’t see his right hand, because he throws from his hip. He’s very hard to see and he throws hard. But in doing so, you leave yourself exposed. We felt he was going to respect my wrestling a lot and that I’d be able to put one up top.

“If you look at any of the footage … we were practicing that stuff the whole time: Throwing a jab, getting our distance, feinting and then throwing that left hook.”

Bader and his team were deeply aware of how Fedor would fight and had specific counters to it. They knew he thought they'd wrestle, they knew how he throws his punches, they had a combo they wanted to drill, etc. In fact the Bellator commentary team pointed out this exact same hook as a weakness of Fedor in their pre-fight analysis, long before Bader himself mentioned it too at the post-fight press conference. How often was that really going to be the case back in Pride that there was all this time and effort put into analyzing how to beat one man?

It's different games.

 

[moreorless87]

Fedor's style of not really having a set gameplan and just being ready to fight wherever also was a bit of a benefit in Pride where you were often matched up on much shorter timelines, fights were replaced on the fly that night, and there could be multi-fights on a given night. Extensive gameplans were often a complete waste of time. You just didn't have as much time and it could all be switched on the fly by a random broken hand to your opponent and suddenly you're fighting someone completely different instead.

There's a reason why most of the rest of their champions were explosive fast twitch guys too. Wand, Shogun, Gomi, etc. are all guys who likewise could thrive in the moment of the fight. It's what was needed in that environment, even before getting into how fights were scored.

It's also likely a good part of most of their downfalls too. Yes there's the age and prime questions, but switching up to your opponents having 3-4 months to have prepared for your exact tendencies is obviously going to also mean you get successfully caught by them more. Back then they often literally were just catching you, like Fujita on Fedor, as they're just throwing in the moment but afterwards there's a lot more guy prepared to do X when you do Y.

I mean, just look at what Bader said after he KO'd Fedor the first time:

Bader and his team were deeply aware of how Fedor would fight and had specific counters to it. They knew he thought they'd wrestle, they knew how he throws his punches, they had a combo they wanted to drill, etc. In fact the Bellator commentary team pointed out this exact same hook as a weakness of Fedor in their pre-fight analysis, long before Bader himself mentioned it too at the post-fight press conference. How often was that really going to be the case back in Pride that there was all this time and effort put into analyzing how to beat one man?

It's different games.

Again I think he had gameplans had had clearly prepped for certain things in certain fights but he didnt tend to focus on fighting a very narrow gameplan in any fight and could swtich things up during the fight.

By the time he fought Bader he was almost a decade past his prime, I don't think thats very relevant in terms of how people could have beaten him in the past. Not every Pride match was some last minute thrown together fight or a GP match against an unknown opponent. Mirko for example knew he was fighting Fedor months in advance and indeed the fight had been talked about for years beforehand plus of course your talking someone who's standard gameplan was very focused on counters anyway. If watching a few tapes and preping a jab/streight counter was all it took them he would have had a lot more sucess but you see Fedor at that stage was a far better striker than he was in 2019, faster, more varied in attack, better timing and far better at slipping punches, he slips Mirko's jab and straight loads of times in that match.

Wand I think as well people tend to misjudge a bit, maybe very early in his career he was more purely a wildman looking to blast though people but really for much of his Pride run he was often quite a slow tactical fighter, just one who could pounce when he had opponents hurt similar to Anderson.

 

[RonDante]

Numbers are a funny thing, and as you show here, you can juggle them to make them fit your narrative.


Round 1 - CroCop either fell or tried to take Fedor down - that is how they ended up on the ground. Fedor did not initiate or hunt for a takedown to be safe from the striking.

Round 2 - Fedor trips CroCop when there is 2 out of 5 minutes left - and CroCop is the one initiating the clinch..

Round 3 - CroCop tries to take Fedor down, and gets reversed. Fedor did not initiate the takedown to hide from the striking.

Do you watch that fight and come away with the feeling that Fedor, who was pressing the action on the feet, was afraid of standing with Crorop?

You’re lying. He tried multiple times throughout the fight to take crocop down

 

[Oddmonster]

You’re lying. He tried multiple times throughout the fight to take crocop down

Yes, 8 exactly. and 4 of those where when CroCop clinched up, and 2 when CroCop tried to take Fedor down.

R1: 5.27 - CroCop falls or tries a takedown, hard to really tell. Makes him end up on his knees in front of Fedor.Leads to Fedor taking him down without even trying.
R2 : 4.45 - CroCop tries to take Fedor down(with full body lock), Fedor reverses and tries a trip.
R2: 2.52 - Fedor tries a throw after CroCop clinches up with doubble underhooks.
R2: 2.20 - CroCop clinches again. Fedor trips CroCop.
R3: 4.40 - CroCop tries to take Fedor down and gets reversed.
R3: 2.23 - CroCop tries to take down Fedor(with doubble underhooks), fedor takes him down instead.
R3: 0.26 - Fedor takes down CroCop.



If you can watch this fight and come away thinking Fedor seemed to be afraid of CroCops striking, or that he did not engage in the striking, there is no helping you. Same if you think Fedor was hunting takedowns.

 

[ZeekWatson]

Don Frye always fought the way his opponents wanted him too!

 

[mkt]

I'd give Jones credit for this too tbh.

Wrestled Rashad
Grappler with Glover
Stood with Gus
Stood with Santos


Didn't do that with Gane though so maybe that's changed.

Jones also took down Bader, Cormier, the Janitor and other very good wrestlers. Fedor submitting a 40+ year old Coleman (who had terrible submission defense) isn't anywhere close to Jones beating around 6 D1 guys and winning pretty much every grappling exchange he had in his prime.

 

[mkt]

1. Jumped into Werdum's guard
2. Brawled with Hendo
3. Brawled with Bigfoot

Part of being a GOAT is Fight IQ and none of those ideas were high IQ. He believed his own press clippings too much.

 

[El Fernas]

Fedor's biggest strength was fighting in a roped square. After the fall of PRIDE, fighting in caged octagons became the overwhelming standard for MMA. Fedor refused to evolve with the standards of the sport and stuck to fighting in roped squares for years.

When Fedor fought middleweight Matt Lindland, we saw one reason why he was so adamant about continuing to fight in roped squares. It allowed him to cheat by grabbing onto the ropes with his entire arm. The referee in the Lindland fight told Fedor at least 10 times to "let go of the ropes" and tried to physically remove Fedor's hand from the ropes, but Fedor just ignored the referee and continued to cheat.



In his early thirties, Fedor finally got with the times and made the move to fighting in caged octagons. He was thoroughly exposed in 4 straight fights. Instead of evolving his game and adapting to the caged octagon, he went back right back to fighting in roped squares on the regional circuit.

Dat Brett Rogers gif looks stoppage worthy, damn he made a comeback.

 

[mixmastermo]

Dat Brett Rogers gif looks stoppage worthy, damn he made a comeback.

He was still flailing his arms somewhat so it looked like he was defending himself. Wouldn't exactly call it intelligent defense though.

Ref could have called it TBH

I remember people arguing about the Hendo stoppage but that slowmo gif clearly shows he went limp. Good call.