Pro's and con's of a Universal Basic Income?

[panamaican]

But the jobs that pay are often dictated by what is in demand and how many willing and able to supply that demand.

How about those jobs that the only person that benefits the person doing to job. We get paid to serve each other.

Your idea is going to create a shortage of plumbers.

Not at all. If there's still a need for plumbers then a shortage of plumbers means an increase in pay for plumbers. That will lead to more people choosing plumbing as a profession. The market will balance that out. There will always be people primarily motivated by money and those people will choose high demand jobs once the compensation gets high enough. Or tech will supply a less human-dependent solution justifying the decrease in plumbers.

 

[panamaican]

Of course I was talking about renters. 18 year olds get $1,666 a month just for leaving the house. That's plenty to live on for someone that age. Hell, an 18 year old could just rent an apartment pay lets say $750 a month, still live at home and then pocket the rest.

Right...but so what? If he's chosen to live on $20k year renting then he's no different than a modern 18 year old that moves out and goes on welfare. If said 18 year old has chosen welfare over vocational training or college then they've chosen to be unskilled in an economy that won't have much opportunity for them.

Yet in our current economy, we don't have an abundance of 18 year olds choosing to live on welfare rather than find jobs even though the current form of welfare can easily pay out more than $20k/year including rent assistance. So, if it's not a problem now, I can't see why it magically becomes a problem later.

I never said that it would replace working. There are people who are currently unemployed with dependents. Even with UBI they will still be unemployed. But 20K won't be enough so they'll need additional benefits on top of that. I never said anything about people dropping their jobs though it is a possibility.

But there won't be additional benefits on top of that. Sounds like an incentive to find a supplement to the 20k. If you're unemployed with dependents then $20k leaves you with ~$900/month after paying $750/month in rent (the figure you quoted for 18 year olds). $900/month for food and utilities is plenty. If it's not enough...as I said, sounds like an incentive to find some kind of work.

 

[panamaican]

Most people don't know how to ask the right questions, and sure as shit can't write multiple good articles a day.

That's already being proven untrue. Computer drafted articles are already being posted on the internet and people are finding it harder and harder to spot the difference.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...er-writing-journalism-artificial-intelligence

The problem is that everyone is convinced that their industry is too unique, too human, to be automated. I'm not going to convince anyone to change their mind but I changed my opinion on this subject once I realized the extent of automation in the legal field. A field where every case is different, supposedly filled with moderately bright people tasked with finding specific solutions to specific problems. Yet the technology is already replacing humans at every level except in court appearances and that's only because computers aren't allowed to legally represent people.

At the high end of most industries, AI is already making changes. People just don't realize the extent to which that tech will trickle down as the tech becomes cheaper. It's no different from computers. They used to be expensive and fill entire rooms and so the general population and most businesses could never hope to use them. Once they became cheap and small, everyone has them and every industry has been changed.

 

[Mark Hunts FIST]

Well...its a combination of your abilities and your willingness to work. There will be people who will not be able to make significant income no matter how hard they are willing to work because there simply won't be a job for them but we'll (hopefully) have advanced far enough as a society to realize that people shouldn't live in complete squalor just because society has no need for their labor.

Complete squalor? We are the fattest nation in the world. We fry BUTTER and oreos.

 

[nixkid]

Complete squalor? We are the fattest nation in the world. We fry BUTTER and oreos.

What does that have to do with living in poverty? Squalor doesn't necessarily mean you starve to death. It just means you live in shit conditions.

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

I am a computational chemist that knows a little bit about AI/machine learning so it's hard for me to comment about precise details regarding macro level societal changes. I know one thing. I would not trust that professions like dentistry or pharmacist would exist 40-50 years from now (meaning that I will discourage my kids from pursuing these career paths that were typical to be pretty much safe/lucrative jobs).

Dentistry ? I can see pharmacist but i can't see Dentistry being taken over , what are some professions you think are safe ,

That's already being proven untrue. Computer drafted articles are already being posted on the internet and people are finding it harder and harder to spot the difference.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...er-writing-journalism-artificial-intelligence

The problem is that everyone is convinced that their industry is too unique, too human, to be automated. I'm not going to convince anyone to change their mind but I changed my opinion on this subject once I realized the extent of automation in the legal field. A field where every case is different, supposedly filled with moderately bright people tasked with finding specific solutions to specific problems. Yet the technology is already replacing humans at every level except in court appearances and that's only because computers aren't allowed to legally represent people.

At the high end of most industries, AI is already making changes. People just don't realize the extent to which that tech will trickle down as the tech becomes cheaper. It's no different from computers. They used to be expensive and fill entire rooms and so the general population and most businesses could never hope to use them. Once they became cheap and small, everyone has them and every industry has been changed.

Wow , very interesting, thanks

 

[Space]

That's already being proven untrue. Computer drafted articles are already being posted on the internet and people are finding it harder and harder to spot the difference.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...er-writing-journalism-artificial-intelligence

The problem is that everyone is convinced that their industry is too unique, too human, to be automated. I'm not going to convince anyone to change their mind but I changed my opinion on this subject once I realized the extent of automation in the legal field. A field where every case is different, supposedly filled with moderately bright people tasked with finding specific solutions to specific problems. Yet the technology is already replacing humans at every level except in court appearances and that's only because computers aren't allowed to legally represent people.

At the high end of most industries, AI is already making changes. People just don't realize the extent to which that tech will trickle down as the tech becomes cheaper. It's no different from computers. They used to be expensive and fill entire rooms and so the general population and most businesses could never hope to use them. Once they became cheap and small, everyone has them and every industry has been changed.

E-mail interviews are one thing, but it's going to be a while before AI-equipped robots are going to go out in the field and interview, meet with people, and report. It depends on what kind of reporter you are, but for a daily news writer, there's a lot of pounding the pavement and hauling ass going on every day.

 

[Mark Hunts FIST]

What does that have to do with living in poverty? Squalor doesn't necessarily mean you starve to death. It just means you live in shit conditions.

What makes up "squalor"? Specifics. Enlighten me.
What percentage of US citizens live in this squalor?

 

[nixkid]

What makes up "squalor"? Specifics. Enlighten me.
What percentage of US citizens live in this squalor?

You're seriously overthinking this.

And why would current statistics even be relevant when we are talking about a hypothetical future in which demand for labor drops off a cliff. Whatever the proverty rate is now is irrelevant because it would certainly increase tenfold given this scenario.

 

[Islam Imamate]

E-mail interviews are one thing, but it's going to be a while before AI-equipped robots are going to go out in the field and interview, meet with people, and report. It depends on what kind of reporter you are, but for a daily news writer, there's a lot of pounding the pavement and hauling ass going on every day.

Why? When many people think of AI androids are certainly not far from their minds. Whose to say an android that's indistinguishable from a person equipped with an advanced AI software that allows them to surpass human cognitive abilities couldn't take over the field of journalism? In fact I would say that they are particularly equipped to take over. How one looks is something that is important, its no coincidence that we see attractive anchors and reporters on the news. Now instead of looking for people who look the part you can simply mold them.

Now to be fair this line of the conversation started with @ProBoxingInsidr saying his media job is safe and I'd bet that's true. I don't see him getting replaced by AI but perhaps his children or their children will think twice about the field.

 

[Lead]

yep every 18 year old will file by themselves and the household number will sky rocket meaning more money to pay out.

With our current system, a lot of younger people keep their personal exemption on their parent's return as it nets out to more money overall. Assuming the person is going to college, they can claim school credit/deductions from their kid until they are 23. For most filers, it makes a lot of sense to do it this way.

 

[Space]

Why? When many people think of AI androids are certainly not far from their minds. Whose to say an android that's indistinguishable from a person equipped with an advanced AI software that allows them to surpass human cognitive abilities couldn't take over the field of journalism? In fact I would say that they are particularly equipped to take over. How one looks is something that is important, its no coincidence that we see attractive anchors and reporters on the news. Now instead of looking for people who look the part you can simply mold them.

Now to be fair this line of the conversation started with @ProBoxingInsidr saying his media job is safe and I'd bet that's true. I don't see him getting replaced by AI but perhaps his children or their children will think twice about the field.

I think you agreed with my post in the end; it's not happening just yet. Maybe in a generation or two.

 

[Deleted member 457759]

Socialists fail to acknowledge the very basis of nature and life. Life strives to achieve and obtain. Males are hard wired to build security and resources to attract females, while females horde resources to support their young. Both require a competitive attitude and is compatible with capitalism. Socialism ignores this.

 

[CableandThanos]

The thing is, even with a basic income, there will still be poor people. Are we still going to freak the fuck out and have extra benefits for them? What good is a basic income if people are sill going to need more money to live on?

So now instead of just giving more money to the people that really need it, we are gonna give It to everyone and then still have a poor class that needs even more money??

 

[rearnakedchoke]

Not afforadable? Hardly ... Govt wont do this because it means govt employees will get less money ... If you added up the amount the govt gets paid, its crazy ... The problem is also lazy people .. They will take advantage ... They will spoil it for everyone

 

[OldGoat]

I'd be for a Universal Basic Income if other unearned entitlements and minimum wage were dispensed of. Paid into programs like Social Security and Medicare can't be robbed from those who paid into them though.

 

[CableandThanos]

I'd be for a Universal Basic Income if other unearned entitlements and minimum wage were dispensed of. Paid into programs like Social Security and Medicare can't be robbed from those who paid into them though.

Thats my issue as well, will there still be other gov benefits for the poor? Even with a UBI there will still be poor people. Hell you have people in this thread saying that you get more from gov assisitance now than you would from a UBI. So will we still give these people extra money ontop of the UBI?

So now instead of a percentage of the population getting gov money, you will have basically all people getting money and then still have to pay extra money to the poor, because they are poor? Why not just give more money to the truly needy, instead of giving everyone free money. And then if robots take all the jobs, how will people work to even pay taxes? Or will the gov just print money?

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think you agreed with my post in the end; it's not happening just yet. Maybe in a generation or two.

It seems to be a matter of when and not if. Some people who would know much better than I seem to be optimistic that it could happen within 20-30 years but I'm still skeptical.

 

[Satsui Ryu]

And then if robots take all the jobs, how will people work to even pay taxes? Or will the gov just print money?

UBI would require major tax increases for capital owners. It would almost become a zero sum game in that their decreased labor costs would be offset by increased taxes to pay the people who would've worked for them before.

I think at some point UBI will be necessary. Beyond the fact that many new technologies not only replace human muscle, but also the human brain, many of the new technologies impact many industries at once. It is not like the old days where the cotton gin just impacted the cotton industry and was replaced by cotton gin factories. Think of technologies such as Microsoft Excel which has touched pretty much every single industry imaginable. The new one coming up will be driverless cars which will impact many different industries (logistics, transportation, pizza). With many new technologies even though they create a new industry, their impacts are so widespread that you end up with net negative jobs.

 

[CableandThanos]

UBI would require major tax increases for capital owners. It would almost become a zero sum game in that their decreased labor costs would be offset by increased taxes to pay the people who would've worked for them before.

I think at some point UBI will be necessary. Beyond the fact that many new technologies not only replace human muscle, but also the human brain, many of the new technologies impact many industries at once. It is not like the old days where the cotton gin just impacted the cotton industry and was replaced by cotton gin factories. Think of technologies such as Microsoft Excel which has touched pretty much every single industry imaginable. The new one coming up will be driverless cars which will impact many different industries (logistics, transportation, pizza). With many new technologies even though they create a new industry, their impacts are so widespread that you end up with net negative jobs.

So I a going t start a business/run a business out of the goodness of my heart? Who would anyone go to the trouble to do this is their is no real benefit to them? Unless I'm still making extra to make it worth my time and effort?

Why bother if it is a zero sun game?