Question for you US folks

[45ACP]

Actually I just saw a test that compared the penetration through dry wall of common pistol calibers to a .223 fired from a 16" barreled AR.

What they found was that while ALL of the pistol rounds easily passed through multiple layers of drywall, the 5.56 from the AR disintegrated after passing through the first wall.

So if you're concerned about over penetration and rounds leaving the home or entering other rooms, an AR in .223 will indeed make an excellent home defense weapon when fitted with the proper accessories (light/laser + red dot optic).

Of course I'll never knock a good 'ol pump action 12g for HD, just letting you guys know that an AR can actually make for a great home defense weapon as well.

 

[jlagman]

I've also seen .223s (FMJs, IIRC) and other rifle rounds tear up steel plates.

 

[Lord of Lies]

They must have been using some frangible round. 5.56 FMJ will burn through drywall like paper.

Actually I just saw a test that compared the penetration through dry wall of common pistol calibers to a .223 fired from a 16" barreled AR.

What they found was that while ALL of the pistol rounds easily passed through multiple layers of drywall, the 5.56 from the AR disintegrated after passing through the first wall.

So if you're concerned about over penetration and rounds leaving the home or entering other rooms, an AR in .223 will indeed make an excellent home defense weapon when fitted with the proper accessories (light/laser + red dot optic).

Of course I'll never knock a good 'ol pump action 12g for HD, just letting you guys know that an AR can actually make for a great home defense weapon as well.

 

[Liemann]

Haha, I wasn't even asking about guns when i revived this thread..
I think that speed thing was in Montana by the way..
Also this: Drinking And Driving Legal In Some States

 

[quatin]

This is a topic that's been beaten to death. You can argue which round penetrates less all you want. Fact of the matter is any reliable round type used for defense will go through all the walls in your house. If it can't go through 10-15 sheets of drywall, how is it going to go through a person? So unless you have brick walls inside your house. Think thoroughly about your plan on where to place your shots to minimize collateral damage.

 

[quatin]

Haha, I wasn't even asking about guns when i revived this thread..
I think that speed thing was in Montana by the way..
Also this: Drinking And Driving Legal In Some States

That's the open container law. It's a separate issue concerning DUI. The open container law states that you cannot have an open container of alcohol within your reach while you are operating a motor vehicle. It does not matter if you have been drinking from the container or what your blood alcohol level is. Your buddy sitting next to you can open a bottle and you will be fined.

I don't see why this is a big issue. To be guilty of DUI you have to have to exceed a certain blood alcohol level depending on which state you're in. That still stands in all states. The open container law just makes it impossible to order a bottle of wine at dinner and bring home what's leftover. Which encourages DUI by the way, because now you have to finish that bottle of wine since you can't take it with you.

 

[45ACP]

They must have been using some frangible round. 5.56 FMJ will burn through drywall like paper.

nope, not frangible ammo. I don't know why some of you are insisting that something is fact when it has been demonstrably proven it's not.

See the article below.

.223 Drywall Penetration: Results

a few quotes regarding the .223s tested:

The hypothesis turned out to be correct: V-Max bullets started fragmenting within the first sheet of drywall and completely blew to pieces on their way out of the second sheet, leaving dramatic craters...

The second wall showed impacts similar to what was seen with the lighter Rangers, but with less consistency in size. In addition to the tiny spatters from small fragments, several fragments were large enough to punch through at least the first sheet of drywall...

It didn't look like they made it through the second wall, though, as there were no new marks on the third. The heavier weight and ostensibly different bullet construction ("Power-Point" vs. "Pointed Soft Point") didn't seem to make much difference where the walls were concerned...

same article, regarding 12 gauge 00 buck:

From five feet, the damage wasn't too bad. All the shot pellets clustered into a single hole just large enough to put a finger through. Not only had the shot spread out quite a bit by the time it reached the second wall, but it didn't slow down much at all. It left a healthy spatter of neat round holes through both sides. This trend continued in--and through--the final wall. If buckshot is supposed to limit penetration through interior walls, it does so only at a theoretical level.

and a quote from a well-respected member of a gun forum I also frequent (refers to the Personal Defense TV episode I mentioned):

Actually, after seeing tests run by Rob Pincus and Phil Strader last year on Best Defense and again by Ed Head and Tom Gresham on Personal Defense TV earlier this year where the .223/5.56 round was shot through several constructions of combined sheet rock and insulation, which were placed about 15 feet apart from one another, I'm convinced that an AR 15, ideally with Hornady TAP rounds, is absolutely the way to go for home defense. This choice is closely followed by a shotgun with birdshot. Neither round will penetrate your home, unlike any handgun round available which will always exit your home if the proper backstop isn't used.

The high velocity of the AR .223/5.56 round, coupled with the yawing effect of the bullet, assures that upon impact the bullet fragments that may make it into a second segment of sheet rock are only tiny fragments that imbed themselves into the wall, unlike a handgun bullet which will just keep on penetrating right through the home and exterior siding.

It's really changed the way I think about home defense, especially with neighbors surrounding my home on all sides. Keep the AR by the bed with a magazine in a GunVault by the bedstand. That way the gun is still safe and unloaded yet readily available should the day ever come.

 

[45ACP]

This is a topic that's been beaten to death. You can argue which round penetrates less all you want. Fact of the matter is any reliable round type used for defense will go through all the walls in your house. If it can't go through 10-15 sheets of drywall, how is it going to go through a person? So unless you have brick walls inside your house. Think thoroughly about your plan on where to place your shots to minimize collateral damage.

might want to reconsider your source of "facts"

 

[Merrill]

It's not just the 'Mericans, there are others who believe that armed societies are safe societies.

It's a shame the video isn't presented in full length. I watched Steve Reeve's Europe last Sunday and he was in Switzerland and his guide was a 20 year Army reservist. Their level of military readiness is staggering. Even though they are considered a neutral country, they have an impressive system of underground bunkers and tunnels in the mountains and the equipment is kept functional and ready for operation. Every able bodied male is given military training and is fully capable of operating all of the equipment in their vicinity.

Sidenote: The Swiss K-31 is an excellent WWII era surplus rifle as is the accompanying GP-11 ammunition.

 

[Lord of Lies]

Because you're wrong. V-Max ammo is designed to fragment on impact, that's why that test got the results it did. Take a 55 grain FMJ 5.56 round and it will go through drywall with no problems.

It even says in the first paragraph of their test "the round that seemed likely to penetrate the least number of walls".

And the same thing with TAP ammo, it's designed to fragment.

nope, not frangible ammo. I don't know why some of you are insisting that something is fact when it has been demonstrably proven it's not.

See the article below.

.223 Drywall Penetration: Results

a few quotes regarding the .223s tested:

same article, regarding 12 gauge 00 buck:

and a quote from a well-respected member of a gun forum I also frequent (refers to the Personal Defense TV episode I mentioned):

 

[quatin]

might want to reconsider your source of "facts"

You might want to read that sentence you quoted again.

40 grain varmint rounds are fragmentation rounds. They're designed to shoot small game and fragment upon impact to retain momentum. Birdshot is meant to shoot birds, no one can argue against the ineffectiveness of birdshot as a self defense shell.

Neither of these are reliable defense rounds.

 

[45ACP]

Because you're wrong. V-Max ammo is designed to fragment on impact, that's why that test got the results it did. Take a 55 grain FMJ 5.56 round and it will go through drywall with no problems.

It even says in the first paragraph of their test "the round that seemed likely to penetrate the least number of walls".

And the same thing with TAP ammo, it's designed to fragment.

I will concede that I didn't realize none of the tested ammo was FMJ. Not all were designed to fragment though, such as the Ranger ammo which uses an expanding bullet. The 40 grain V-Max is the only round they tested that I personally wouldn't consider a self defense round.

But my original statement still stands, albeit with a qualification... an AR15 style carbine in 5.56 is an excellent choice for home defense when loaded with appropriate ammo. If over penetration is something you need to be concerned about due to living in an apt complex or having near-by neighbors, an AR loaded with good SD rounds will be less of a potential liability than either a pistol or a shotty loaded with buck shot.

 

[quatin]

It's a moot point. Any reliable self defense rounds will penetrate several layers of drywall. There's little reason to argue the relative safety of penetrating 6 layers or penetrating 9 layers. At the point where you are using rounds that goes through layers of concrete is where there's another real problem.

 

[45ACP]

Any reliable self defense rounds will penetrate several layers of drywall.

Umm, not quite... as was proven in the article I linked to.

The Hornady TAP in 60 grain and both weights of Winchester Ranger .223 (both designed and marketed as self defense loads) virtually disintegrated after passing through 2-4 layers of drywall. One of the Ranger loads had almost completely disintegrated by the time it had only passed through the 2nd layer.

 

[D Train]

I was just reading about the Justin Eilers shooting.. He got mad and threw some plates, and his STEP FATHER pulls out a gun and KILLS him?
I understand this happens all the time in the US but too me it's just unreal..
Why would you shoot someone for disagreeing with you? I'm not saying every one in America are crazy gun loving sociopaths, but the statistics don't lie either.

I think it's all in your head that an assault rifle is more intimidating than a 9mm handgun. They will both kill you? And also, if it's for protection why do so many people die from "i was just protecting myself" type of gunshot wounds? Don't u know where to aim? Oh, here im rambling...

I think you're showing your ignorance on this point. It doesn't happen "all the time." People dump on the violent crime rate in the US with great enthusiasm and frequency, but do a little research friend.

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

 

[D Train]

Just something to think about...
Three held in Palmview home invasion : News : KGBT 4

 

[CFMC04]

Umm, not quite... as was proven in the article I linked to.

The Hornady TAP in 60 grain and both weights of Winchester Ranger .223 (both designed and marketed as self defense loads) virtually disintegrated after passing through 2-4 layers of drywall. One of the Ranger loads had almost completely disintegrated by the time it had only passed through the 2nd layer.

You are correct. In fact the .223 round (perhaps excluding military green tip) is less likely to penetrate through the walls of the residence. It is less likely than a 9mm round coming from say an MP-5. This is a key reason as to why several U.S. tactical teams use the M-4 as an entry weapon.

I realize it is hard for most to believe but if law enforcement is using .223 it should tell you something as cops are held to a very high standard in shootings. They are responsible for every single round fired and with being so worried about law suits, you bet they are going to use the round which is least likely to cause collateral damage inside a residence.

I still prefer my shotgun for home defense though. There is nothing that instils fear like the sound of a racking shotgun.

 

[quatin]

Umm, not quite... as was proven in the article I linked to.

The Hornady TAP in 60 grain and both weights of Winchester Ranger .223 (both designed and marketed as self defense loads) virtually disintegrated after passing through 2-4 layers of drywall. One of the Ranger loads had almost completely disintegrated by the time it had only passed through the 2nd layer.

That article states complete penetration of 4 layers and striking, but remaining between the 5th and 6th. What does 4 layers of drywall penetration equate too? 3 Rooms (including the room you are firing from). Measure from a bedroom out 3 rooms and that covers pretty much an entire apartment and most of a house. Most rounds should be stopped by the exterior wall of your house anyways so in lieu of the grand scheme, there's little difference in shooting through 3 rooms instead of 4.

Also TAP is still a fragmenting round. TAP (Tactical Application Police) are meant for LE. They break into homes as a firing team. They can make up for less penetration with more people shooting. Just, because Hornady sells it in the secondary market as a self defense round does not make it the effective self defense round. They market .32 ACP self defense rounds too, but what's the penetration depth of any of these rounds? I can tell you 60 gr TAP is less than 10 inches. You need a minimum of 12 inches (FBI Ballistic Standard) to guarantee strikes to vital organs from any direction.

 

[ComteGuillotine]

I was just reading about the Justin Eilers shooting.. He got mad and threw some plates, and his STEP FATHER pulls out a gun and KILLS him?
I understand this happens all the time in the US but too me it's just unreal..
Why would you shoot someone for disagreeing with you? I'm not saying every one in America are crazy gun loving sociopaths, but the statistics don't lie either.

I think it's all in your head that an assault rifle is more intimidating than a 9mm handgun. They will both kill you? And also, if it's for protection why do so many people die from "i was just protecting myself" type of gunshot wounds? Don't u know where to aim? Oh, here im rambling...

Yeah we know where to aim, center mass! You want to see data on wound ballistics?

If center mass doesn't work, either they are really determined, drugged up, or they are wearing some sort of body armor, go for the coup de grace, the head shot.

 

[ComteGuillotine]

Wow, those are some f'kd up laws from my point of view. Well, Texas have lots of weird laws..Whats the difference between "wounding" and "intent too stop" ? The whole point is to for example shot in the leg to.. guess what.. stop!

I could see a scenario played out like this.. Someone tries to rob me but i pull out my gun, and he pulls out his, and i shot him in the leg, takes his gun away and later tells the cops "i shot him in the leg, nobody deserves to die" *cop goes crazy* you did what son?! Didn't shoot to kill, eh? You're under arrest!

In Sweden the self defense laws are much different.. When it comes too "Most of the self defense laws read that its from the perspective of the person attacted, (i.e. did you fear for your life)"

In case of Eilers, as far as I've read and understood he was just throwing plates. If someone told a Swedish court he feared for his life when a plate came flying he'd be charged with manslaughter so quickly.

There's also a law which states that you should not use more force than necessery. As with the Eilers example. Shooting someone in the chest when the throws dinner plates at you, would definatly be considered excessive force.

Befriend some local police and ask them if you can accompany them to the shooting range... Get a standard police target, hang it up on an oversized piece of cardboard and draw in the rest of the body (the standard target will have the torso/chest/neck/head), basically the arms and legs. Make sure it is an actual scale representation...

Have the target placed 25-30 feet away from you and then have them use the machine or the crank/rope system to charge you with the target. See if you can draw your weapon, aim at the leg, and fire, before the target is within arm's reach.

Keep in mind that most confrontations are initiated at distances under three meters. Seldom does a criminal wave a pirate flag at 200 meters and announce that he is going to stab you, as he begins to sprint across a parking lot towards you, waving his knife in the air and giving you 10-20 seconds to carefully take aim and fire.

If you want to stay alive, you aim center-mass and fire, for good measure you aim once more at the head and fire.

I holstered my weapon, assumed a relaxed stance, and had my friend crank a target back towards me, as fast as he could, from a position of about 20-25 feet away. The rules were that he would decide when to charge me with the target and I would draw and fire as soon as I recognized the threat (realized I was being charged). I was able to consistently get two shots into the center mass before the target was within 3 feet, most of the times I wound up making the head shot when the target was anywhere from 12-24 inches (1-2 feet) away, a few times I was taking the follow-up head shot with the target contacting the muzzle or being separated from the muzzle by only about two inches of space.


If somebody charges me with a knife, bat, etc, I'm not going to play some Hollywood game of "shoot their arm," or "shoot their leg," or "shoot their weapon from their hand in a totally awesome A-Team fashion" I'm going to aim/point at their center mass and fire several times. If they're still charging me I am going to carefully aim at their head and fire.